No more Hi-cap mags. Buy 'em now...

[Butt Plate]

Thursday May 13


SENATE IN SURPRISE BANS BIG AMMUNITION CLIPS


WASHINGTON (Reuters) -

The Senate in an unanticipated stinging defeat for the powerful gun lobby Thursday voted to ban imports of high-capacity ammunition clips.

The amendment by California Democrat Dianne Feinstein had failed in previous years but it
survived a procedural effort to kill it by a 59-39 vote Thursday night, and then was accepted on a voice vote.

High-capacity ammunition clips, which mean someone can keep shooting scores of bullets without stopping to reload, cannot be made in the United States, but they are still imported. Feinstein had been trying unsuccessfully for several years to close
the loophole.

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And you thought "Gun Ban Dianne" was only ruining California. She's just as dangerous for America, guys.

Today, California. Tomorrow, the world!

We're at war folks. Join the NRA. Write and call Congress. And stock up on high-cap mags while you can. If Clinton's Executive Order kills all imports after June, well...

AK rifles are the only type I own. But I think I'll buy a dozen each of AR, FAL and various other mags just in case I want to buy one someday.

PS - Somebody is going to get rich smuggling high-cap mags into the United States in the future. Just you wait and see.

PPS - I didn't write any Senators about this because I didn't even know the vote was coming up!

[Necron99]

This law does nothing new to us private owners. Since the Crime Bill of 1994, no new "high capacity" magazines have been brought in or for that matter produced in the states for the civilian market. Either this law was passed to appease the leftwingers or these idiot congressmen and women don't even know what they've approved of in the past. This law changes nothing. All the high cap mags on the civilian market were produced or imported before the 94' Crime Bill came into effect, no new high cap mags have been made or imported legally since that time. The only exception of course is for the cops and the military. The mainstream media doesn't even know which end of the gun to point downrange, much less the specifics of the U.S. gun law jig saw.

[Butt Plate]

Are you sure?

The 1994 ban did indeed ban domestic production and importation of all high-capacity magazines manufactured after September 13, 1994. HOWEVER, all surplus magazines manufactured abroad before 9-13-94 could legally be imported and sold.

I was under the impression many were made after 1994 overseas, but the policy of the manufactures to NOT date or place a serial# on the magazines made it impossilbe to prove they were post-ban magazines, hence completely unenforceable to prevent their importation.

If my understanding is correct, then the flow of high capacity magazines made overseas for all variety of rifles, is halted. You're correct that U.S. manufacturers have not made any since 9-13-94.

Therefore, the quantity of magazines in the country, though quite high, is now fixed and can't increase except via smuggling and the Black Market. Over time, the cost of high-capacity magazines will skyrocket, as occurs with most goods for which demand constantly grows while the supply is fixed.

Does anyone agree with me, or am I wrong and Necron99 is right to say that no high-capacity magazines have been imported since 9-13-94?

[TinMan99]

Hmm. I have no idea on the particulars of the legislation, however, I suggest that that we should get ahold of as many high-cap's as our budget allows for our firearms. I have a good number of mags. I can always sell them for at least what I paid for them and they ain't making no more. Right now, treat AK mags like commemerative postage stamps. Get them at face value, hold onto them, take care of them, sell them when you don't want them at a profit or use them as they were designed. Right now, new 30-rd East German mags are going for around 10-bucks. You can expect this latest nonsense to drive them to around 15 bucks a piece tomorrow. Get your hands on another four if you haven't already. Get a drum if you can find one under 90-bucks. Forty rounders make a rifle look pretty cool and twenty rounds are nice and convenient for benchrest shooting and prone shooting/bipod shooting. A distributor I know just raised his price on 75-rd drums from 90 to 120 bucks over this recent crapola. Get them now while they're still cheap, relatively speaking.

I have to admit that I grudgingly supported the background check at gunshows. It unnerved me to see obvious gang-bangers going up to a guy with a sign around his neck selling Lorcins (shudder) for 75 bucks, no background check, at my local gunshows. Every NRA member at that show should have tarred and feathered this guy and tied him to a tree with a new sign around his neck, "I endangered you and your Second Amendment rights for chump-change". I am very much in favor of lawful ownership and responsible use of firearms by law-abiding citizens and that any good citizen should have the right to own whatever firearm and in whatever quantity they desire with a minimum of intrusion by any government body. But it was obvious from the gang colors, membership tattoo's, and the fact that the bangers left immediately after buying their Lorcins (gag!) that gave me a small sense of foreboding.

Feinstein's high-cap ban effects mostly the owners of AK's and similar foreign made long-arms and then primarily former Eastern Bloc/Chinese/Commie-gun makers. The good news is, the market is still awash with good quality high-cap mags that are still reasonable in price, so get them now.

Now here's one question: How come there are no American magazine manufacturers producing five- and ten-round AK mags? I would assume it's because you can buy foreign high-caps for what it costs them to make them in five and ten round capacity. I wouldn't mind having a couple Meggar 10-round AK mags, if they existed. Bench/bipod shooting necessitates a small mag, the twenties are just about perfect for that, but honestly, I wouldn't mind having a couple ten's and another five from a US maker.

Anyway, we're not out of the storm yet. There's bound to be more legislation coming on the heels of this latest fiasco. Get involved now or don't complain when you find yourself legislated right out of owning your favorite firearms. Join the NRA. Write your Legislators, Federal AND State.

TinMan99

[LongDuck]

First off - DON'T START A SCARE OVER THIS JUST YET... (sorry to yell).

Keep in mind that the proposal that was voted in yesterday had to do with *adding* this portion to bill S. 254 to ban the importation of high-capacity magazines. It is still in the Senate and has not been voted on yet (as of 2:05pm MST, Friday). Once it passes the Senate, it goes to the House, which must either agree with it or add their own 'comments'. From there, it goes into 'compromise' between the 2 parts of Congress before it is given to the president for signing. There is *no* line-item veto, so he has to sign all of it or none of it.

What this means, is that there is no cause for alarm about the high capacity magazine being banned from importation just yet. Making it out like it's a done-deal only raises the prices on these things out of dealer fear, and that doesn't do any of us any good.

Best thing to do is contact your representatives and let them know how you feel about S. 254 and that you *will not vote for them* if they vote it into a bill that passes. This is the only way to fight, but is still worth fighting for.

The reps know that 1 articulate writer is representative of 1,000 voters, and will listen if you present yourself well. Your voice can count, but you have to take some time out and take part in the Republic.

Congressional mailer at: http://www.gunowners.org/mailerx.html

Drop by and see how easy it is to be counted!

[Necron99]

You might be right Butt Plate. I don't know why we haven't seen more high cap magazines imported for HKs, Berettas, Galils, Valmets, etc... but it could just be these manufacturers and countries don't want to ruffle the feathers of their biggest customer (or foreign aid provider), the U.S. government, by bringing in mags to sell on the civilian market here, through that loophole.

[Butt Plate]

Thanks for the complete and accurate update, LongDuck. I stand corrected. The AP newswire I found on the Internet simply stated this "law had passed the Senate", so I believed it had been enacted and would be signed by our Supreme Commander, the Rapist in Chief himself. Thankfully, I was mistaken.

I say thank you because now I have time to write and call the Senate leadership and others, even Foxer and Bilestein, over the issue.

I hope you all feel sorry for me here in the Peoples Republic of California. You can't possibly know how foolish I feel to contact Boxer and Feinstein knowing that I will be comletely and entirely ignored, if not scorned and mocked, every single time I contact them.

I wish to hell James Rogan hadn't chickened out and dropped out of contention for Feinstein's Senate seat. I would have voted for him!

[Necron99]

Butt Plate, you were dead on as far as the implications of this law if it passes. I couldn't believe it, both Conrad Burns(R) and Max "gun banner" Baucus(D) voted against the measure. I am amazed at the lack of backbone in the Republican majority. I guess they forgot what got them into the majority in 96', gun issues. I've finally decided to get registered as a Libertarian (used to be Republican) as I agree almost entirely with their platform, and have voted for them exclusively in the last several elections. Check out their website at www.lp.org . People say I'm wasting my vote when I vote Libertarian, but if they were to get a significant minority, the other parties and the media could no longer ignore them and may drift towards Libertarian like candidates to get this swing vote. Plus I don't believe in this better of two evils bs. That's like arguing if you were to be hung, as to whether you'd like to have your neck break (Democrats)and die instantly, or slowly die by the strangling rope (Republicans). I have no doubt that even if we elect a conservative Republican to the White House, he will not repeal any of the gun control measures of the past. Remember is was George Bush that got the whole thing rolling. Unfortunately the Republicans treat us "gun nuts" as a given, and therefore treat us accordingly.

[Floyd]

No use in driving up the prices before the Act becomes law. So you think the manufacturers of the magazines will just put a block in them or will they cut 'em short?

------------------
Join the NRA!!!

I still think I will hedge my bets and buy an extra half dozen (30rds)or so. I have a fair amount already though I need to pick up 2 or 3 more 40 rd mags.

To late to stop the markets folks. Every dealer around here has just doubled there hi cap prices overnight. I wish I had bought a couple more drums....I have three though so that should last my lifetime. Well best of luck

[HKgnnr]

Topic: Gun Control
Senate Bans Possession of Hi-capacity Magazines

5-22-99

"Well it looks to me that every other gun owner in America may have just become a criminal as a result of the vote in the U.S. Senate. Probably the most damaging vote was the voice vote to ban "large capacity feeding devices" by Sen. Feinstein.

My reading of her amendment, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, not only bans the importation of large magazines but also the possession of those CURRENTLY HELD held as a result of the exception in the 1994 gun ban.

Feinstein does this by amending section 921(a)(31) by striking out the words "manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Controland Law Enforcement Act of 1994". Currently that provision reads:

(31) The term "large capacity ammunition feeding device"
(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition;

The new language reads:

(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition;

Sounds innocent enough until you go to section (w)(1) which is left unchanged and it reads:

(w)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device.

Paragraph (2) reads:

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection.

Should you take comfort that paragraph (2) protects you, think again. Ms. Feinstein is way ahead of us. Her amendment strikes out "Except as provided in paragraph (2)" in paragraph (1) and replaces it with "(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B)", which now reads:

(w)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (B), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device.

Paragraph (B) reads:

(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;

It sounds to me that our gooses are cooked. To add insult to injury we don't even know who voted on which side because our friends in the Senate passed the amendment on a voice vote. However, we do know a little because the Craig motion to table the amendment failed by a vote of 39 yeas to 50 nays.

It does not get better after that: it gets worse. Now members of Handgun Control Inc can sue us in Civil Court if we do not store our handguns in a safe or with a safety device on like a trigger lock. The Kohl amendment threatens anyone who's handguns are not locked or stored in a safe with civil liability. Part of his amendment reads:

`(3) Liability for use:
(A)Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person who has lawful possession and control of a handgun, and who uses a secure gun storage or safety device with the handgun, shall be entitled to immunity from a civil liability action as described in this paragraph.
`(B) Prospective actions: A qualified civil liability action may not be brought in any federal or State court. The term `qualified civil liability action' means a civil action brought by any person against a person described in subparagraph (A) for damages resulting from the criminal or unlawful misuse of the handgun by a third party, where--
`(i) the handgun was accessed by another person who did not have the permission or authorization of the person having lawful possession and control of the handgun to have access to it; and
`(ii) at the time access was gained by the person not so authorized, the handgun had been made inoperable by use of a secure gun storage or safety device.

The language is a back handed slap in the face. It appears to protect the lawful owner, but in reality it mandates that anyone who does not have a trigger lock on their handgun, and the gun is stolen, will be held liable for the "damages resulting from the criminal or unlawful misuse of the handgun by a third party". The real sad part of all of this is that no one I have read has pointed out that neither of these amendments would have prevented the Columbine shootings. No one in the Senate has pointed out how stupid these amendment are."

I posted this in the general discussion area as well.



[This message has been edited by HKgnnr (edited May 25, 1999).]