Waco and Gun Control

[julio]

One thing I don't understand about the pro-gun side (and I include myself in that group) is that there are frequent references to Waco and the Branch Davidians.

It seems to me that this is one thing that is alienating advocates of military style weapons from the general public. There are two reasons:

1) The BD's were not normal law-abiding suburbanites, but rather a strange millenial cult. It seems pretty clear that if they hadn't destroyed themselves then they would have done so later, or else have become overtly violent. The best we can hope from such groups is that they kill only themselves (i.e Heaven's Gate) and don't start killing other people (i.e Manson's Family). In any case, making these people the Poster Children for Gun Rights is at least counter-productive.

2) Already these people are the poster children for people like McVeigh. Obviously there are members of the pro-gun community that are serious threats to public order and safety. Justifying your actions in the same terms and for the same reasons as McVeigh will only further erode public support for 2nd Amendment rights.

[This message has been edited by julio (edited August 31, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by julio (edited August 31, 1999).]

[Tomac]

Julio, rent "Waco: Rules of Engagement" sometime. It perfectly illustrates why we need a 2nd Amendment: to allow citizens to protect themselves from tryannical governments. I may not agree with the BDs religous beliefs or lifestyle, but as long as no one was being hurt then it's their own d*mn business how they wish to live their lives. If the BDs have broken laws then due process should be followed, not the unnecessary heavy-handed military assault that resulted in the needless deaths of 80 men, women & children. The government lies & coverups afterwards (now coming to light) just underscore the point.
Tomac

[56s]

Hello,
So you are saying that the BD's are poster children for the McVeighs of this country?
I think that Mr. McVeigh would have looked down on the likes of the BD's, considering them to be on the fringe or a 180 of what he stood for.

You know as I do that we as Americans have a very broad and differant belief in our country and how it should conduct it's daily attitude towards maintaining what we feel is right???
I do not see any relation regarding our birth rights with any connection to the home grown radicals in our country. When was the first time you saw the BD's using AR-15s? Was it on HBO? I must admit that I had no idea what they were about until CNN and company told me what they wanted me to belive.
And when it comes to Mr. McVeigh, I do not recall ever hearing about him or his movement until the media had told me what they wanted me to hear.

At no time am I condoning their acts but I can not see any relation between our rights and these hate groups. Our media feeds on lies and they will say anything to get a reaction.

The folks with the power and the money will try and make the average American belive that what they are saying is what you should take as fact. We or some can form our own views but there must be a common line that allows us to know when we are being told things that are not true.

Take care and thanks for the post!
OUT in Vegas!



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56s-2

[ramius]

Well here I go and post a long response in the General Discussion forum only to find the same message here.

Rather than throw a hissy fit over the fact that I'm reading the same post again, I'll just reference you back to the General Discussion forum.

But as long as I'm here...

julio, with all due respect, your argument about Waco is dead wrong. I highly suggest you educate yourself, since you've obviously bought into the rhetoric that Branch Davidians deserved to die. Watch the video, read about the latest developments, and realize that Waco had nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with freedom control.



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-ramius...
right wing extremist gun nut
...and proud of it.

[julio]

Ramius:

The question for you is what do you intend to do about the continued squeeze on assault rifles?

There seem to be three options.

1) Sit down in the mud and cry about "liberals" violating you rights.

2) Build a blockhouse, sit inside with every weapon you can get saying "ain't takin' my guns."

3) Work positively towards legislative reform.

Of course, number 3 is the one that might work. You need to ask why don't any national politicians take a strong pro-gun stance (if they intend to be a serious candidate). Don't look for a party to endorse 30-round magazines. Voters don't worry about gun rights when the are worried about crime. And they are _always_ worried about crime. You can argue that this isn't rational, but it won't work now any more than it worked in the past.

What would you like to tell the voters? That guns don't pose a threat to their personal security? That message goes over like a lead ballon when accompanied by a diatribe about Waco. Given the history, the question is, if you are really so upset about Waco, why shouldn't I be afraid of _you_?

[julio]

56S:

Yeah, I am saying that the BDs are the poster children for quite a few hate groups. Not the BDs themselves, but the whole Waco event.

You can see this directly on their web pages. Look at www.hatewatch.org (http://www.hatewatch.org) and the links therein. Whether they are the Klan, Aryan Nations, or WCOTC, whenever they invoke Waco and Gun Rights, it degrades our legitimate interest in military style weapons.

It is also probably not a coincidence that the Oklahoma City bombing was on the annivesary of the end of the Waco seige.

[ramius]

You know, the more I read your argument, the less I understand it.

Waco has become a rallying point for hate groups, so people who like assault weapons should distance themselves from Waco.

Hmmm...

God has become a rallying point for hate groups, so people who like assault weapons should distance themselves from God.

Hmmm... perhaps we should define hate groups.

God has become a rallying point for the Aryan Nations, so people who like assault weapons should distance themselves from God.

julio, get a new argument and then come see me. Cuz that dog don't hunt.



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-ramius...
right wing extremist gun nut
...and proud of it.

[ramius]

Hmmm... I choose option number one and I'm a whiner. I choose option number two and I'm a separatist fanatic. I choose option number three and I become instantly illuminated like my learned adversary. Spare me.

Your argument, which for some reason you feel it necessary to hold onto for dear life, is that we, as gun owners, should selectively forget past injustices in order to attain a more secure future. What a wonderful world you live in!

And naturally, you have to end your argument with the perennial favorite of debaters who have run out of rhetoric... 'if you don't agree with me, then you're wrong!'

Huh?

I'll tell you why you shouldn't be afraid of me. It's because I'm a law-abiding citizen. But since I consider Waco to be an injustice, an outrage against the very system I once defended with my life, I somehow become a fanatic. A right-wing extremist with an AK and an axe to grind.

But allow me to answer the one question you did ask (and answer).

"What do you intend to do about the continued squeeze on assault rifles?"

I will continue to write my Congressmen. I will continue to send money to the NRA. I will continue to be active in my state rifle and pistol association. I will continue to educate myself on the facts of gun control. I will continue to keep myself abreast of current developments. And I will continue to associate with like-minded individuals.

I would suggest you do the same.

And now I have a question for you. Since the Davidians were a "strange millenial cult" and was going to either "destroy themselves" or "become overtly violent," what would you have done in Waco?

And unlike you, I will not answer your question for you.



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-ramius...
right wing extremist gun nut
...and proud of it.

[julio]

As to what I would have done, this was my analysis at the time:

Once the seige had started it couldn't be called off. Since it was already a mess, my opinion was that it should have been brought to a conclusion as soon as possile.

I said at the time that the gov't had the choice between some of the people dying and all of them dying. If they had gone in to end the seige within the first few days some people would have been killed, and probably some agents. But dragging it out guaranteed that it would end in some apocalyptic vision. Which it did.
So there's my answer. I would have ordered a move on the building far earlier than the FBI and BATF.

Would I have approved the original operation? I can't really say because we don't know the details. I probably would have. The amount of force used in a raid is proportional to the potential resistance offered. The exceptionally large raid is justified in hindsight by the opposition it faced.

Would I have decided that a raid was necessary at all? I can't say. We will probably never know what information was available to the decision makers.

[Tread Head]

Julio, I believe that you should review a copy of the search warrant that was issued on the Mt. Carmel / Branch Davidian Compound. Reading the warrant will, I'm sure shed a great deal of light on your opinion of the relationship between the BD folks and gun control. And to clarify some thing, the BD compound was NOT the only site under investigation. Southeastern Equipment Co.of South Carolina, as well as The Nesard Co. We all remember them don't we. Lastly, have you read the definition of a "CULT" as stated by our Attorney General Janet Reno? Might want to review that as well. If what is written is true,then all of us could possibly be considered "Cultist".

I'd say that in hindsight,the ATF agents that assaulted the compound were damned lucky the BD's didn't counterattack and kill them all or take them hostage when thier attack stalled and they ran out of ammo.

[GRIM REAPER]

The mayor of Boston made a comment on CNN stating that the ATF & police dept's. should go into every household and confiscate all firearms. There was this lawyer(I can't think of his name right now) he told the mayor that if those " Gestapo, Stazi " tactics are tried in America, there was gonna be hundreds if not thousands of Wacos in this country. Bill Clinton should take notice of this remark !!!

[This message has been edited by GRIM REAPER (edited September 03, 1999).]

[ramius]

Based on your response, I'd like to share with you some information.

"David Koresh had never been convicted of a crime, violent or otherwise. He had complied peacefully with lawful authorities at least four times. He had surrendered himself to the local sheriff in 1987 on a bizarre attempted murder charge far more serious than the weapons violations the ATF suspected him of. (A hung jury voted 9-3 to acquit him.) Koresh had not interfered with a Michigan judge's decision in a child-custody case to remove 12-year-old Kiri Jewell from the compound. As
recently as February 1992, he had escorted local sheriff's deputies and child-abuse investigators through the compound after they had called beforehand to say they were coming. Koresh even invited one of the deputy
sheriffs to come back and fish in their lake, according to McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell. "He was real nice to him, real congenial," he says."

This is a quote from an article that was published in August of 1993. Here's the link if you'd like to read the rest. It's quite thorough. http://www.spectator.org/classics/classics893w.htm

This is just one paragraph... and after reading the rest of the article, I think you'll find yourself asking some questions that perhaps you hadn't asked before.

So my challenge is this... read this article and then look at your response above. I can understand what you're saying, and why you're saying it. But I think your response is not based on facts... 6 year-old facts. I think your response is based on erroneous perceptions of the Branch Davidians as they have been stated by the press.

You stated "We will probably never know what information was available to the decision makers." I think we do, and I think that after you read this, you will as well.



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-ramius...
right wing extremist gun nut
...and proud of it.

[Bryant]

I have a bad feeling that Waco tactics will become part of the ATF methods of getting guns out of the hands of citizens. They seem to get more and more brazen in their tactics and more and more people will die at the hands of the government if we do not stand up to them as one. I watched an NRA show the other morning before work, it was all about Great Brittian and gun confiscation. First they register you, then they outlaw certain types of guns, then even to the surprise of those who use them for hunting or sport- their guns are outlawed. Even the English Olympic team that compeats for the shooting trials can not practice in England and they are representing their own damn country. They showed these lines with hundreds of guys turning in their guns and yet if they just would have stood and did something, finally they all marched AFTER they lost their gun rights, guess what it does not change a thing. It scared me so bad to think in January the Kalifornians will be turning in some guns and I know they will since most of the gun laws have come out of their states. Those who do not will be made examples of by the ATF and most likely executed just like those at Waco. Right now we have enough people in this country that are armed to take any opposition and win. I grow tired of watching our gun rights slip away and yet no one will do anything more than whine to politicians who as a majority want us to have less guns anyway. I think it's time we become more militant, I am not saying that we go around and shoot people but if we just start to organize by the millions and look serious enough then it will get the message out. You might say to your self well the day they come for my guns is the day I give em' hell, so what do we do- we stock up on ammo and accessories and exotic military type weaponry for more security. But I ask why waite till then, because at that point it is all over. If you think Waco was bad then just waite till we are all labeled as criminals for excersizing our Second Amendment rights, they will hunt us down like dogs and I guarantee other less militant gun owners will not help us. They will think that we are bad gun owners and because of us we have all these problems in this country, just look at the news they always are attacking the Politically Incorrect gun owners and the NRA hardly mentions assault weapons as their member of guns as well. They are more interested in Police training programs and concieled carry laws because they know we are bad publicity. Just like Napolean, divide and conquer, if you don't believe me just go down to the local range. You get some weird looks by the guys who shoot only the "common" more excepted type guns simply because they don't want to associate with us. We have become a target because of the type of weapons we have and the media and the government want to place the blame on us but once our guns are gone they then move in on the rest, but since only about 35% of the gun owners in this country own assault type weapons they get rid of us then they get rid of everything else, just like in Great Brittian. We need to start getting organized or we will be finnished. Get the word out and tell people to go to the March on Oct. 2nd in Washington, this may be the first step but one that needs to be taken on behalf of our rights or Waco will just be the beggining of years of murder and torment.

[GRIM REAPER]

Well if the ATF is gonna use those type of tactics, theirs gonna be alot of body bags to fill.


Murphy's Law : Whats bullet proof, is'nt really bulletproof.