diff between lethality& stopping power

[mangun]

I can cause your death with an icepick thrust to your heart, but it will probably take many seconds, perhaps even minutes, for you to bleed out. That same thrust, you your guts, might well kill you, of infection, in a week, especially if you couldn't swiftly access modern medical care. Most handgun loads are in the same boat. When a man can shoot, stab, slash, or club you 4x per second, leaving him functional for even 1/2 second, after scoring a solid chest hit, is not good performance.

Contrarily, I can stop you cold, with a ball bat across your gut, and in a day or 2, you will probably be fine. That's stopping power, without any lethality at all.

Most stops are psychological in nature. You hurt-shock the guy enough that he WANTS to quit. Very few handgun loads have any power to actually cause a man's physical incapacitation. That is why the dopers, drunks, etc, are so likely to not be stopped by pistol fire. They don't feel any serious pain, and the stuff may have effected their brain to the extent that they think that your rds have either missed them entirely, or only caused a minor wound.

When you blow a 1" (or larger) hole in their chests, with Plus P .45 Mag Safes, tho, it's a lot harder for them to just over look that wound, and it's a lot more likely to swiftly bleed them out. If you are so worried about the "shallow penetration" of the Mag Safe (10" or more of flesh) then load every other rd with hardball. ) Most shots in combat miss the target entirely, you know. Most hits are peripheral in nature, too.

A man who is using cover is no threat to you, unless he has grenades. So there is little or nothing to be gained by shooting at his cover, and you may even hit an innocent that you can't see back there, or with your richochets. If the attacker has cover, you'd better have cover as well. If you have good cover, why do you need to fire at him, eh? Why not just peek out frequently (from different spots, of course) and see to it that he's not out flanking your cover? If he tries, he will be in the open, shoot him then. Otherwise, save your ammo, and stay behind cover.

[SFC_E7]

This is true to the point that one would allow the perp to get this close, as most of the well trained civilians who attend courses and practice will tell you, if you live in the White Zone then yes this may happen to you, but most trained civilians live in the Yellow Zone meaning that we are always aware of what is going on around us at all times.

To begin with what makes you so sure you would even get this close to me or anyone with a Baseball Bat. If I seen you coming my direction my alert level just went to Orange meaning A potential threat, which in turn means I already have my hand on a firearm in my pocket, and you may get the first swing but I would be on the move making you miss and since this was endangering my life I have the right to defend myself and I will recover and asking you to drop the bat or I will take action to defend myself and shot and I would say this loud enough for all to hear hoping the police would arrive first..

I do not know where you get your information from but a survey was taken to inmates in jails to federal prisons asking what is the one thing you fer the most. The majority said being shot and killed. As far as perps on drugs are concerned they can be stopped with a shot to right area, in fact this is why I have 10 round magazines even a perp like that cannot walk with 10 rounds in his chest and head. Drunks? You got to be kidding me, what the hell are they drinking, Diesel Fuel? As far as my rounds missing them, I would not want to put it to the test, but I'm always running scenarios through my mind as to what I would in different situation.

Again your information, I am thinking you are referring to the untrained firearm owner. To begin with I would be loaded up with either Winchester Silvertips, Federal Hydra Shoks, COR-BON, or Triton, there are not many who walk away from these rounds if placed correctly in the chest and head.

You are correct as long as they are useing their head and not making threatening jesters to me then I need no cover. Also a well trained firearms owner would not shoot anyone and only use this as their last resort. They would give them every chance in the world to leave, Stop, or Get Out but if the perp refuses several warnings and continues on I go from A Specific Threat, Fight seems Imminent to The FIGHT IS ON.

A properly trained person to handle firearms will never shoot anyone unless their life or their loved ones life is in immediate danger, and then they will attempt to get them out of harms way.
A person who is well trained and practices all the time will most likely never have to draw their firearm, for they will not allow themselves to be put in this type of danger.

[mangun]

to do with this topic, and if you "think" that I can't surprise you (or anyone else) with a hunk of pipe, you are living in a fantasy world. Ditto your silly little factory hp loads. The head shot is one thing, the chest hit is something totally different. The only man alive with enough pistolfighting experience to have a valid opinion(Jim Cirillo) says that no factory pistol jhp amounts to much at all. Out of the 25 men that he saw shot, only two stopped with one hit to the chest, and most required multiple hits, even with the 12 ga, 223 sp's, or .30 Carbine hp's.

The mammalian brain KEEPS 5 second's worth of oxygenated blood inside the cranium. So you can blow-apart the heart, and have no immediate effect whatsoever. If the heart has just contracted, it just sent yet ANOTHER 5 second's worth of oxygenated blood to the brain. If your rd only made a small hole in the heart, it can function for many seconds. If you miss the heart entirely, the man may function just fine for several minutes, even with repeated chest hits. There are quite a few men walking around who only have one lung, you know.

Everything you mention is related to tactics, not to stopping power. You live in a dream world, if you "think" that you dont HAVE to let men get within arm's reach of you, all the time. Anyone who passes by you on the street, in a room, etc, all are plenty close enough to "jump" you, long before you could make a concealed draw. A man who is 6 ft from you can be all over you in .5 second. The time if he is 10 ft away is 1 second flat. You cannot react, draw a belt gun from concealment, and hit a chest at arm's length (starting with hands at sides) in less than .70 second, and if the coat is fastened or the covering shirt is tucked in, the minimum time will be .90 second. Your reaction time will be slower in the street than on the range, and a decision-time will be added, as well.

So, quite often, the issue will have to be at least partially handled by hand to hand techniques, or by footwork, or by body armor, or by having your hand ON a gun that's in your pocket. Hydro shoks are all loaded to far too low a velocity level to count on them expanding, and very few of them have adequate energy levels in the first place.

With the right load in a pocket auto, you can have 600 ft lbs on tap (55 grs, 2200 fps, 356 TSW) That is from a 6" long, 16 oz Kahr PM9. It has no worse recoil than does a 19 oz .38 snub (using 158 gr Plus P lhp's) With the right load in a belt pc, you can have 800 ft lbs, (70 grs, 2300 fps, 4" barrel) with no more recoil than .45 ball demonstrates.

[RJ Shooter]

The only true instant stopper is a properly placed CNS shot!

What is your point with all of this? You keep rambling in multiple threads this ".45's are the only way" BS like you really know what you're talking about!! FBI real-world statistics would prove that you don't!!! My favorite of my hanguns is my SIG .45acp, but that doesn't mean it's the best stopper on earth!!! :rolleyes: REAL-WORLD stats show that my .40sw has a better record of stopping someone with a single shot.

If your theories were correct, the IDF would not be so successful with Ruger 10/22s taking down Palestinians!!!!

BTW, shock has nothing to do with a person conciously knowing they are shot. It has to do with their brain reacting to trauma. Therefore drug/alcohol-enduced individuals have slower overall reaction times for everything, so so in turn, their brain may take longer to realize the trauma that has been inflicted, and shock may occur at a slower rate. Just ask the Somolis!!!

Turning off the brain is the only true instant stop...

P.S. You need to quit relying so much on Fackler and Strausberg!!!

[mangun]

talking about. Shock of a hit most certainly CAN make you notice that you've been shot. The Palestinians are shot with SUPPRESSED 22's, from cover, and noone CARES if they flop around for a minute or more before they bleed out, lungs fill up with blood, collapse from pneumo thorax effect, etc. They are unarmed.

The FBI doesn't HAVE the "stats' you refer to, and Marshall has been many times proven to be to be lying. He just makes that bs up as he goes along. That's why he wont "reveal' his sources, for independent verification. The FEW times that he DARED try this, the info did NOT back up his claims.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by mangun
...noone CARES if they flop around for a minute or more before they bleed out, lungs fill up with blood, collapse from pneumo thorax effect, etc. They are unarmed.They've been stopped, even if they're flopping. That is the theory of stopping power correct? So, you are now saying that the IDF only shoots unarmed persons eh? Hmmmmmmmm, okay... I guess the photos showing them dropping their AKMs were Photoshopped. :rolleyes:Originally posted by mangun
The FBI doesn't HAVE the "stats' you refer to.It's called the UCR or Uniform Crime Reporting Program. I've used it, the NIBRS and other USDOJ briefings for years in the scope of my work, so I guess you're wrong again...

We'll agree that Marshall is a moron!

[SFC_E7]

Mangun again I say your proof has no bearing what so ever, and as far as you sneaking up on me, just be prepared.

The 45ACP loaded with COR-BON, Winchester Silvertips, Federal Hydra Shoks, etc., will kill a person and do not feed me this crap about what Jim Cirillo said and you can tell him for me he is full of shit, and you are as well saying all this crap with out documented proof. Go read the FBI reports that they did with the Remington Golden Saber and the Winchester Silvertips, Black Talons which are Ranger Talons which are the same as the Golden Saber.
And btw you may report me to Moderators or the Web Master for proving you wrong in everthing that you come out in your dream world, Grow Up and get the real way of life.

BTW the 45 ACP with a 230 hard Ball will stop a person, want to know how I know? It was called the US Army during the 60's and early 70's, believe me it will kill a person.

[SFC_E7]

First I want to apologize to Mr Cirillo, I'm sure if knows anything about ammunition and their firearms that would agree any bullet would kill a person.

I want to get this straight about the Triton 450 SMC:

For those that want more from their .45 ACP chambered handguns, Triton introduces the new 450 SMC. The 450 SMC is based on a simple principle, to strengthen the weakest link in the .45 ACP chain and boost its performance to new levels. All this while not over-stressing the gun (OEM .45 ACP firearms must be modified with the use of a heavy recoil spring). To accomplish this Triton went to the heart of the problem, the .45 ACP cartridge case. By borrowing from the .45 Winchester Magnum and .40 Super cartridge cases , Triton has come up with a winning combination. A cartridge case that is internally stronger while maintaining the same exterior dimensions as the .45 ACP

By utilizing a case with a thicker web area and wall and combining that with the stronger small rifle primer, Triton is able to achieve its high level of performance. The small primer has the additional safety benefit of providing a visual reference between the 450 SMC and a .45 ACP cartridge.



The 450 SMC is a great choice for .45 ACP fans offering the flexibility of using both the 450 SMC (with a heavy recoil spring) and .45 ACP from the same barrel. Production firearms for the .450 are available from STI International, 114 Halmar Cove, Georgetown TX 78628, (800) 959-8201.



From the 165 grain JHP at 1,450 fps, to the 230 grain JHP at 1150 fps, the 450 SMC surpasses the 10mm in performance and is second only to the .40 Super.



With its small primer pocket and robust construction, the 450 SMC is the ideal choice for the reloader. The 450 SMC is available in Triton's Quik-Shok and Hi-Vel lines of performance ammunition.





The STI International Xcaliber .450+ is chambered for the 450 SMC. STI also offers the Xcaliber .450 (not shown) on a 1911 stack frame.

WARNING: The 450 SMC cartridge generates higher pressure levels than conventional .45 Auto or .45 Auto +P ammunition. Under no circumstances should 450 SMC ammunition be used in a firearm not chambered or converted to handle the 450 SMC. The use of 450 SMC ammunition in anything other than firearm manufactured or converted to handle the 450 SMC will cause excessive wear and possible damage to the firearm and injury to the user. Under no circumstances should .45 Auto brass be used to duplicate 450 SMC ballistics. The 450 SMC cartridge case is constructed to withstand higher levels of pressure than conventional .45 Auto brass. When in doubt, consult with a qualified gunsmith. Call Triton for more information or for a location of a qualified Smith.

http://www.triton-ammo.com/

[mangun]

Like I said, you dont know what you are talking about. Noone said .45's weren't lethal. What I said is that they are proven to be poor stoppers, and that's the truth of the situation. The fact that a guy FINALLY falls down, 30 seconds or so after being shot, has NOTHING to do with an effective stopping load. An attacker can easily be shooting or stabbing you at the rate of 4x per second. So if he is incapacitated only 1 second after being shot, it's still TOO SLOW.

The NCR says NOTHING about stopping effect. So, whatever use you put it to, it's NOT about what loads work. The Black talon was PATHETICALLY unable to expand in flesh, because its velocity was too low, and the jacket was too tough. I have shot literally scores of animals with .45 ball. Any one who has done the same will tell you that a hp in a .22 Mag RIFLE far outperforms .45 ball. That's the facts, and [people with no experience with it, against flesh and blood, need to keep their mouths shut on this subject.

[BuckShott]

Wow this is a complete repeat of the Maine Patriot forum/...


infact the thread was called the same thing. This is just as awful....and you are just as much of an @$$ here as you where there..
this is same pathetic rank you where on before mangun..

check the site everyone... last time he was disputing the Makarov claiming it was about as poweful as a .22 and the 9x19mm was "twice" as powerful!!

frost.bbboy.net/themainepatriotboard

I dont know what your problem is Mangun,Buckaroo,Gunkid..
odd that your known for getting kicked off gun board forums..

Buckshott

[SFC_E7]

No Comment

[HDR]

Sounds like some one never heard the drill, two in the chest, one in the head.

The " diff between lethality& stopping power" is simple.

Lethal is just that "of, relating to, or causing death." Stopping power means stopped, or anything from a bullet in the kneecap, being ground zero, to a 600 pound gorilla sitting on your chest. All of them work..

Point is, everyone speaks about the one druggie that took 8 hits to go down, not the 100,000's that went down with a flesh wound.. But that's normal, its the exception to the rule that gets our attention.

mangun,
I work here and "General Firearms Forums" is one of my favorite places because I never need to come here. Its a bunch of enthusiasts enjoying, however as you noticed that's changed.. Or as I've noticed, you've changed that..

Be nice and btw I don't debate or argue.

[mangun]

anyone who can run a chronograph, READ, and understands what energy MEANS can see that. There are 600 ft lb loads for the 9mm. The Mak, at 200 ft lbs,IS essentially the same power level as is a Stinger's 160 ft lbs, from a RIFLE barrel. Buckshot CONVENIENTLY left out the .22 RIFLE part, because he's either too ignorant to know the difference, or he wanted to TRY to show that he knows something. Obviously, he does not.

Virtually noone CAN debate me, on much of anything, because the FACTS are on MY side.

In the early 70's, the LEAA actually CHRONOED Glaser 96 gr 9mm's, at 1850 fps, 720 ft lbs, from a Browning HP. The American Rifleman chronoed the original Geco Bat 9mm as being 96 grs, at 1750 fps, also from a P35's 5" barrel. Guess WHAT,guys? Those loads shot thru the concealable armor of that day,so they IMMEDIATELY got "watered down". The fact that you are IGNORANT of real potential in auto pistol loads does NOT change that potential. In the early 80's, THV Arcane offered a 45 gr 9mm, at 2400 fps, and Mag Safe has offered a 52 gr 9mm at, 2100 fps (4" barrels) for nearly 15 years now. The original Mag Safe 357 Sig was 64 grs, 2200 fps, 4" barrel. The velocities of which I speak are both safe and REAL.

[mangun]

teaching the "Mozambique" of 2 to the chest, 1 to the head. I was part of the Columbia Conference, 1976, when we set up the Rules for the IPSC. Where were YOU, Mr Know it all? Have you ever TRIED hitting a fast moving head, while you were being shot at? Can you even toss up a couple of soda cans, and reliably hit both of them in midair, as I can? :-) No, all you CAN do is catcall from the sidelines.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by mangun
Have you ever TRIED hitting a fast moving head, while you were being shot at? Can you even toss up a couple of soda cans, and reliably hit both of them in midair, as I can? :-) No, all you CAN do is catcall from the sidelines. You BETTER be FSCKING careful KIDGUN! The MAN you are BELITTLING above HAS probably SEEN more THAN you HAVE ever DREAMED of!!!!

Have you ever shot a man? How about many men? Have you ever been shot at every day?

You BETTER get OFF that FUCKING high HORSE before YOU'RE de-saddled!!!!!! UNDERSTAND ANDY SMARTASS?????

If you are as smart as you say you are, you better settle the fuck down!!!

It's funny how the most worthless pieces of shit Boast the Most...:rolleyes:

[Rew]

I was getting ready to call.

[mangun]

I'll shove whatever you have right up your ass,and laugh at you.

[HDR]

wasn't me, but I was going to..


I love the threats.. Odd enough most that crap dies off when its in person.

[mangun]

AINT coming.