Need Help To Make 11.5" upper legal

[jeffm14]

hello,i've got an "E.A(essential arms" "Pre -Ban-AR-15 lower...
i recently purchased at a gun show an 11.5" upper,with all the pre ban features...i.e threaed barrel,bayo lug,etc...
i am aware that 16" is the legal limit for rifle barrel lenght,unless you register the gun as a short barrelled rifle(with i 'dont want to bother with)...
my question is, if i add a 4.5" flash suppresor(totalling 16" even",and permanently solder it on with silver solder,wil this be a "legal configuration"....?

thank for the feedbacks...

[redmenace]

Someone with more knowledge can probably correct me but, i coulda sworn that there is no such thing as a "pre-ban" lower. If im not mistaken it cant be "pre-ban" unless it was assembled as part of a COMPLETE rifle prior to the ban.

Asside from that, permanently attached muzzle devices are counted in the barrel length measurment for legality purposes. And properly applied silver-solder counts as a permanent attachment. Of course you MAY end up having to use a muzzle brake instead.

[sfc ret]

Originally posted by redmenace
Someone with more knowledge can probably correct me but, i coulda sworn that there is no such thing as a "pre-ban" lower. If im not mistaken it cant be "pre-ban" unless it was assembled as part of a COMPLETE rifle prior to the ban.



you're right........the weapon had to have been completed assembled piror to the sept 94 ban, with at least 2 of the evil features, bayonet lug, FH etc... just buying a pre-ban lower that was never assembled into a complete weapon, does not make it a legal pre-ban.........all manufatuers keep records of how a weapon went out into the world, either as a completed weapon, or as a receiver.

that is not to say that somebody could have stripped a legal fully assembled pre-ban, and just sold the receiver by it self....and you build it again, that would be legal, becasue it started out as a fully assembled rifle......if you really, really want find out how your reciever was sent out as at the time it was made you would have to call the manufatuer.....and since ESSENTIAL ARMS (EA) went out of business in 93, and DPMS bouhgt them.....they should have your serial on record, and can give you the history of it.................

All are Pre-Ban as they went out of business in 1993. (DPMS bought them prior to the Ban) call DPMS Lower receiver serial numbers begin with EA. Some or all lowers are cast. Light gray coloring. It is rumored that Ruger investment casted the lowers for Essential Arms.

yeah I know the law is the most stupiest thing ever imagined, but it's still a law.....we can't pick and choice which ones we want to obe, and which we don't.


here is a primer on what is a legal pre-ban and what isn't a legal pre-ban

http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/preORpost.html

[Circuits]

Originally posted by redmenace
Someone with more knowledge can probably correct me but, i coulda sworn that there is no such thing as a "pre-ban" lower. If im not mistaken it cant be "pre-ban" unless it was assembled as part of a COMPLETE rifle prior to the ban.


Except for preban lowers marked "Colt AR-15". Colt AR-15's are 'named' in the assault weapon ban, so are "AW's" regardless of configuration or condition of assembly. Those that are preban will always be preban, those made after 9/13/94 are postban LEO-only, at least until 9/13/04.

As for adding the flash suppressor, you need to use a 5.5" flash suppressor, since there's about 3/4" overlap with the muzzle threads. A 4.5" flash suppressor would only get you to about 15.25 inches and would require registration as an SBR. With a 5.5" suppressor, high temp silver soldered, welded at least halfway around, or blind pinned and welded would be a legal 16" length.

[mac66]

You have pre-ban lower and a pre-ban upper. All you need to do is add the 5.5" flash hider and you are good to go.

[kimberkid]

There is so much incorrect info here that I cringe just reading it!
Granted the beliefe may be based on logic ... but since when does logic apply to the law?

There is no such thing as a stripped pre ban lower ... and contrary to popular opinion, its not true that a receiver can not loose its pre-ban status ... if at any time a "pre-ban" lower is assembled in a post-ban configuration it looses its pre-ban status ... of course the trick is the govenment would have to show it was "assembled in a post-ban configuration" however if it's sold on line and pictured as stripped, there is the proof ... the pre-ban parts have been removed along with its "status".

A rifle does not have to be "completed" prior to the ban to be considered "pre-ban" ***BUT*** the owner does have to prove (ie have reciepts) that the receiver and parts kit were both bought prior to the ban to be considered "pre-ban".

In order for a 11.5 in barrel to be "legally installed" on a AR-15 styled rifle, the 5.5" flash hider must be either welded or solidered and pinned (read "permently afixed") to the barrel to obtain the 16" minimum length ... or secure an SBR stamp prior to installing to the lower.

If you are ever in doubt go straight to the source, take a couple hours and read the regs at the BTAFE (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm) website ...

Cover your ass! Being convicted of a weapons offence will cost you your legal rights to ever own a firearm again!

[PK90]

Originally posted by kimberkid
....if at any time a "pre-ban" lower is assembled in a post-ban configuration it looses its pre-ban status.....


Can you please site a specific FAQ or Regulation/Rule to back this up?

[kimberkid]

PK90 -
Since the BATFE website was re-designed a 3-4 years ago it has been increasingly difficult to find answers to questions except in their "FAQ" section.

My parapharased statement quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kimberkid
....if at any time a "pre-ban" lower is assembled in a post-ban configuration it looses its pre-ban status.....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- was an expanded ruling on Section 922R-O2:

Semiautomatic assault weapons in knockdown (disassembled) condition consisting of a receiver and all parts needed to assemble a complete semiautomatic assault weapon are subject to regulation if the parts are segregated or packaged together and held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular firearm. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 30)]

I can't find it but the expanded ruling stated (parapharasing again) that if at anytime these parts were no longer segregated or packaged together and all held by a person as the parts for the assembly of a particular firearm the receiver then lost its grandfathered status ... simularly if all the features of a preban or grandfathered weapon was stripped of its pre-ban features and seperated from those parts, likewise the pre-ban status is forfited.

Meaning, if you bought a receiver and a parts kit prior to the ban, then collectivly it had a "Grandfathered status", however if you sold one or the other (kit or receiver) and seperated the parts intended "for the assembly of a particular firearm. [18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 30)] " THEN the "Grandfathered status" is lost.

I suppose this could have changed, and no longer be correct - just like its no longer the case with 922R:
(O7) Are replacement parts for grandfathered semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices subject to regulation under the law?

No. Parts may be replaced in grandfathered semiautomatic assault weapons and grandfathered feeding devices without violating the law. However, if the frame or a receiver for a semiautomatic assault weapon is defective, the replacement must be made by the weapon's manufacturer or importer. The replacement receiver must be parked with the same serial number as the original receiver, and the original receiver must be destroyed. However, a manufacturer or importer who is unable to mark the replacement receiver with the same serial number as the original receiver may seek a marking variance in accordance with 27 CFR 178.92. In addition, the permanent records of the manufacturer or importer should indicate that the receiver for the weapon has been replaced.

Because now individuals can buy receivers "for repair or replacement only" and do it themselves for many firearms such as the HK-9X line, the SIG 55X, Steyr AUG ... and the receivers don't even have to be made by the original manufacturer ... no "letter of replacement" needed or anything ... same goes with mag bodies and the like ... I would be concerned about what to use for "proof" when the BATFE comes knocking and accusing you of assembling an new assault weapon from the receiver you bought "for repair or replacement only".

Its getting so that a person has to have a law degree as well as countless hours to keep your head above water on whats legal and whats not ...

[PK90]

kimberkid,

Are you perhaps referring to the following, as it specifically refers to Post-Ban SAWs?
(019) May a licensed dealer lawfully acquire semiautomatic assault weapons manufactured after September 13, 1994, remove the features that bring them within the definition of such weapons in the law, and sell the weapons to the public? [Back] [I]No. The law prohibits possession of semiautomatic assault weapons manufactured after September 13, 1994. However, an exception is provided for licensed dealers possessing and dealing in such weapons that have been manufactured for and are possessed for transfer to government agencies. A dealer's possession of the weapons for sale or transfer to the public is not among the exceptions to the prohibition on their possession. Thus, a dealer who acquires such weapons for the purpose of stripping them of their assault weapon features and selling the modified weapons to the public violates the law. This is true even if the dealer strips the assault weapon features from the weapons so that they no longer meet the definition of semiautomatic assault weapon. The dealer may also have violated the law by making false statements to a supplier that the weapons were being acquired under an exception to the prohibition, e. g., for sales to law enforcement agencies or law enforcement officers. [18 U. S. C. 922( v), 27 CFR 178.40( c)]
How does this affect Pre-Ban Firearms?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On a similar note: Are High Capacity Magazines part of the firearm?

I've seen Glocks that were listed on the box as "Law Enforcement Only". The firearm itself had no features to qualify as LEO Post-Ban, nor was the firearm itself marked. The magazines had the only markings, "RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/ GOVERNMENT USE ONLY".

Couldn't the firearm be sold to nonlicensees without the magazines?

[kimberkid]

PK90 -
No, that's not it - that is common sence, and doesn't rebuke other decisions they have made, like Once a machinegun always a machinegun".

I wish I could find the ruling or decision or whatever it was ... I was dumbfounded when I read it ... and re-read it several times to make sure I was reading it right ... I even had it bookmarked for a long time but when they re-vamped their site the page came up as "can't find or does not exist" or something like that ... this decision goes aginst almost every other decision concerning firearms ...

[PK90]

kimberkid,
I believe that the discussion on ar15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=162020) details this letter that you referred to and a post by jzdziarski explains the lettters intent and legality.