Evil features for CQB??

[Shawnster]

I got a preban Colt with bayo lug, collasp stock, and a 11.5" barrel with a 5.5" FS. What additional "evil features" would you put on it for CQB??? (lights, red dot, ect.) Thanks for any advise.

By the way I'M FIRST!!!!!!!!!!:jump:

[RJ Shooter]

I'd keep her stock!

If you want an optic, a carry-handle mounted Aimpoint would look nice on the little 11.5" bbl'ed girl, but I think she probably looks nice without all the 'makeup.' :p

[rick314]

Aimpoint is a good red dot


You have a shorty carbine
You have to ask yourself what you want it to do.
It sounds like you want a handy and quick rifle.

Red dots are great for quick work
they have two eye open capability and draw the eye to the dot.
If however you want to shoot at anything 100yds and farther I would suggest a little magnification.
There are a few products out there that have the best of both worlds.
Red dot with 4 power magnification
ACOG are probably the top of that heap and run from 500 to 1000 depending on model.
I like the Trijicon Accupoint as it has 1.1/2-4 magnification and dual lit retical with no battery

Leupold has a neat little Gizmo called the Mark 4 CQ/T that offers a one AA battery lit retical and variable mag from 1-3 with a 14mm obj
http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/images/magnified/Mark4_CQT_1-3x14mm_x2.gif

If you want to stay with Red Dots I would suggest you try the EOTech it is very simple and straight forward. Rugged as you`ll ever need and large window.
There are more products to choose from but I would look into those if money isn`t a huge obstacle.

If you still want a red dot or one with small magnification and money is an obstacle then try Kalinka, a Russian firm producing good quality optics at cheap prices.


In the world of optics you do get what you pay for.



mostly

[Glock 45]

:rockin:
I have the same puppy and I added a Bushnell/Eotech Halo scope on the front handguard using Fobus/Samco rail type handguards. On the Bottom I added a front vertical handgrip, not much else needed unless you do night stuff. I compete in IPSC 3 gun shooting and its always Daylight. The front handgrip & Eotech make for some really handy CQB add ons as most IPSC targets are within 30 yards.
If you ever want to trade or sell the baby, put her back original for top bucks and add the takes offs to your next acquisition.
Yippie K Y, get along little

[saleen]

I have alot of experience with the EOTECH site and I have to say that it is not my preferred system. I looked at them when I was building my CQB 11.5" SBR Bushmaster, and decided to go with the C-MORE scope for a couple of reasons. First, it incorporates a back-up iron site because the base is actually a modified A3 carry handle. Secondly, the adjustments are locked in place by a set screw. And finally, since the base is an A3 handle, it is less likely to loosen with use and can easily be checked.

My department chose the EOTECH set-ups for their AR-15s against my suggestion and we have run into a number of problems. First, there is no back-up sight so you have to add one. This is generally undesirable for me because I don't want to have to come off target and unlock my sight if I need it. Furthermore, the more moving parts there are, the more likely the sight is to lose zero with repeated use as I see it. Also, with the absence of iron sights to witness or verify that the red dot scope is still "on", you pretty much have to send rounds down the tube to be sure or simply trust it.

On our first trip to the range with the new ARs we discovered something else about the EOTECH. Since it is mounted by a single screw, once it gets loose the sight will come off. All of our guns seemed succeptable to loosening with use and several simply fell off during coarses of fire. In real life without a back-up sight, that could be troublesome. We eventually had to lock tite everything and hope they never needed to come off. That first trip also taught us that the adjustments were not exactly consistant either. Not a big problem, but annoying nonetheless.

I will admit that the C-MORE has limitations. The hood is not armored for one (which hasn't proved a problem for me yet) but it is certainly something that I would consider a worthwhile addition if it were offered. Second, the adjustments are an absolute nightmare. They are very sensitive to the smallest of movement which means that they are pretty much infinately adjustable within the field of view. On the plus side, once they are on they are on and mine only required adjustment when the base broke earlier this year. Even then the scope held a 1" group at 50 yards 2" right of the point of aim.

Since we are talking CQB accessories, let me also stress the importance of a white light source. Some will opt for the Millenium forearm assemblies (again, my dept. did) but I do not like the placement of the light or the weight of the unit. The light configuration makes sling attachments a pain, and I fail to see why I need a light on a CQB weapon that will illuminate targets out to 75 yards. I prefer a 6 oc'clock mount and ultimately went with a simple M3 nylon mount added to my M-4 forearm. It required some modifications to the heat shields, but a std M3 light slides right on and fits the bill just fine. I'd like to try one of those realatively new forearm / light assemblies, but haven't been able to save the $ up yet.

Above all make sure that you don't go too overboard with a handy little CQB gun. When you hang too much crap on it, it becomes cumbersome and that is exactly what you DON'T want in a CQB gun. Remember, light and fast so keep it simple.


Saleen

[Rew]

put that "shoot me" light on there. I have yet to hear a good argument for a white light mounted to a weapon. I can understand an IR light sorce with NVG's. But a white light is a target, possibly from both sides.;)

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Rew
put that "shoot me" light on there. I have yet to hear a good argument for a white light mounted to a weapon. I can understand an IR light sorce with NVG's. But a white light is a target, possibly from both sides.;) When in a MOUT situation, where the enemy can obviously hear you coming anyway, 80+ lumens shined directly in someone's eyes from less than 25' will cause them to have lots of trouble aiming. The eyes will automatically squint or shut, giving you the advantage. Sure they can still spray and pray, but couldn't they do that anyway?

Not dissing ya Rew, but in room-to-room CQB, there are definite advantages. I have had training with sqib/paint out of revolvers indoors and the xenon light can be a weapon of it's own sort to gain the advantage! Think of it as a diversionary weapon.

Now a field rifle is another story, and a non-IR light would be kinda silly...

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by saleen
I have alot of experience with the EOTECH site and I have to say that it is not my preferred system...My department chose the EOTECH set-ups for their AR-15s against my suggestion and we have run into a number of problems...On our first trip to the range with the new ARs we discovered something else about the EOTECH. Since it is mounted by a single screw, once it gets loose the sight will come off. All of our guns seemed succeptable to loosening with use and several simply fell off during coarses of fire. In real life without a back-up sight, that could be troublesome. We eventually had to lock tite everything and hope they never needed to come off. That first trip also taught us that the adjustments were not exactly consistant either.Hmmm, maybe the earlier (Rev A & B) models had some of these problems, but I have not had any of those you listed above with my 551.

I have about 500 rounds through my M4 with the EOTech on it. The screw has not budged from it's original position since I mounted it. I did however remove it at about 400 rounds for some thorough cleaning. When I returned it, and went to the range, it was still zeroed at 50m.

[saleen]

Are we talking about a battle weapon or a CQB gun? They are two different animals and a white light certainly has it's place on both the CQB shoulder gun as well as the pistol carried as back-up.


RJ,

Ours are 510 models, not the newer 550 though I don't know if there are any differences with the mount. I would estimate the round count when the problems started manifesting to be over 500. Also, they were secured with the larger screw head instead of the flush allen head screw. Perhaps that had a difference on the torque applied to secure them, but I sure though they were tight. You bring up a good point about EOTECH that I forgot to give them credit for....... the return to zero did astound me. I never would have thought that it would go back just right after falling off, but that's just what happened.


Rew,

When was the last time you had a chance to run around and shoot things with your NV goggles on? More importantly, how effective do you think an operator would be with NV goggles on in the tight confines of a residence or other structure you are unfamiliar with? I can see using them for ingress to the target if you aren't going to simply drive up and jump out, but tactical use in my experience doesn't extend too much beyond the military. Granted, the whole of my experience in this field is in SWAT where everybody already knows we are there. I have worked with PVS-7s though and felt they limited my depth perception to the point where I wouldn't want to run through and clear an unfamiliar structure with them.


Saleen

[RJ Shooter]

Saleen, the 550 series has the single attachment screw as well. You can use either the large slot-head, or a recessed hex (or allen - can't remember which now).

I guess I'm the type that checks tightness of all attachments, grip panels, etc. at each cleaning. :p Maybe it's just a force of habit for me since handgun grip screws sometimes work their way loose during lots of firing. The slot-head on my 551 has remained at horizontal since I attached it. We'll see if it starts loosening up since I'm past 500 on her now.

I'd think that these problems would have been resolved since USSOCOM units have adopted the optic in large numbers.

Thanks for the input guys!! :)

http://home.earthlink.net/~roglisaj/gunsnet/eotech-dot.jpg

[Love2Shoot]

first let me say that I have played with alot of setups. Some of the stuff I am recommending I may also be a little biased towards...that said...

You have a Flat top or Carry handle?

What about the OKO red dot. 4 MOA, 150 to 1500 hours of use. There is even one out there now with a pressure pad switch, no more accidentally leaving it on. 11 brightness settings, standard 3V litium battery, MSRP is $220. can either be mounted on the flat top, or Cav Arms does make a drop down carry handle mount (which can handle other red dots alot). the drop down mount does allow co-witnessing of irons. the OKO also has back up iron sights.

Put an accesory rail on the hand gaurds, vertical fore grip and then a M6 on the front. gives you light and a laser. you can also get the pressure pad switch for the M6.

3 point tactical sling, a must for CQB. what about furniture, maybe a urban grey furniture, or coyote brown (:D ).....

here is a pick of my Urban Beowolf......

http://www.cavalryarms.com/beowulfurban2.jpg

[rick314]

I have never used the OKO but have fondled them a bit I believe they have a plastic body and lexan lens
Very good for competition and range fun in the sun


Saleens take is a good point to consider
He has shown another instance were military training and equipment needs differ from LEO needs and equipment.

But the military is starting to become more LEO minded and personal survival is becoming slightly secondary to political damage.

A white light is great for target ID and in sometimes as an offensive weapon.
I would strongly advice against using it solely as an offensive weapon.
When you ID a potential target you also have the advantage of blinding him, that is a good thing.
But you have tpo ask yourself as a civilian do you need that target ID more than having the 1st strike capability.
IOW If you live alone and NO ONE else should be in your house in the middle of the night, then do you want to trust that the intruder isn`t armed with a pistol or shotgun. If you illuminate to ID then you might also get a face full of lead/shot/or other fun stuff.
Of course you could have the light mounted (added weight, more things to think about, more switches to employ) and use it or not. The old addage `Tis better to have and not need than to need and not have` is certainly true.

I like Saleens idea of using the M3 as I agree that anything farther than the M3`s capability needs a diffferent tool.

I suggest looking at your needs honestly asses what you should do concerning lights.

I will say that an added light adds to the hit probablity (both ways)
I like my light seperate from the pistol and one on a shotgun would be worthy of thought.

[Rew]

to begin, the last time I used NVGs (PVS7v) was with a shotgun and an IR laser sight. Worked pretty well, this was MOUT training. And it was military. I have no expierance in LE. (Tho this training was conducted with an MP unit). Now, I understand that target ID is very important to LE ops, as it should be. However if I'm the guy defending and decide you are going to have to carry me out on my shield. The last thing in the world you want to do is try to ID me before you shoot. The defender in a military combat sit or a SWAT LE sit, will use the same tactics. You light up that coat rack I tie'd the 550 cord too, and I'm going to light you up with a 12 ga. A white light moves in a stright line, light up the wrong "possible target" and you could very well die for it. If I really want to play unfair like I'll put on a welding helmet and let you light me up, before I blow ya away. The self darking type of course. Think about it. :p

[RJ Shooter]

Rew, if it's dark, but you know the room you are personally defending, would you still be able to hit me when I come through that door if I didn't have the light? Sure you would!

So if you had a 99% chance of nailing me as a walked through that door without a light, what do you think your chances would be if I possibly (luckily) illuminated you with blinding light? (PS - having a light constantly on can make you a soft target)

Conversely, if I was defending that room, and had a "shoot-me" light, and you did not. If you come through that door, and are suddenly hit with 90 lumens directly in the face, who is more likely going to get the better shot off???

The use of a tactical light is very situational in my opinion. Personally, I'd rather clear my house with a handgun - having a free hand to help with touch & feel in the dark is an advantage. A long gun requires a little more from the user.

Tactics are like a good game of chess. Some moves and sacrifices look stupid, while still being strategic. But the goal is to win. I think knowing how to use a flashlight can make you a hard target and can help you with your goals if you know what you're doing...

All I want is CHECKMATE!

Pllllleeeease don't think I'm being a smart-ass here, I just love talking tactics with distinguished gentlemen. :D :D :D

[Rew]

crying out loud, RJ. My feelings are not going to be hurt if you don't agree with me. I fully understand that other people have different training and different opinions as well. No problem, if you walk out alive, you were right. If you and I have to enter a building, you can take a shoot-me light:p. I won't complain, just don't point it at me. One thing I have is excellant night vision, I was blessed with this from birth. I also happen to weld. And I found out the other day that my MAG lite will activevate my welding helmet shield. Playing with the grandson. The MAG light also lite him up pretty well through the lens.;)

[saleen]

Rew,

As you pointed out, the military and LEO missions are very different. In the military, collateral damage is expected and excused to a reasonable extent in a hostile environment. On LEO situations, there is NEVER a situation where you will not be held accountable for collateral damage.

White lights for LEOs are just plain necessary. We don't sneak and it is really never a surprise to anyone when we are there once the boots start moving. In that light, (pun intended) a white light is simply an asset that is indespensible in my opinion. Could you rig 550 cord to the hatrack as a diversion? Sure you could. Could you get me when I reacted to it? Yep. Would my cover-man (we put at least 2 even in a bedroom) put several rounds in you as you were trying? Bet on it. Am I aware of the potential consequences of my position on the tactical team? Of coarse I am.

There is never a 100% safe way to do anything tactical, it's all about minimizing your exposure and risk with tactics and training. Part of that deals with equipment, part is speed, part is aggressive action and an unwavering trust in your partner to watch your back. The same sort of trust that you had in the military with fellow squad members.

PVS-7s and IR lasers are cool and they have very limited application in my world. I'm not knocking them and didn't intend to come accross like I was. I just feel that they represent a technology that doesn't have much practical application beyond the military and since the person who posed the accessorizing question did not appear to be in the military, I could only see all that hardware as add-ons that were unnecessary beyond being able to say you had something "just like the soldiers have". I'd rather suggest someone to save their money for reasonable accessories they would be more likely to use and spend the saved money on training courses and / or ammo. In the end it is the most practical thing and one that they will derive the greatest benefit from.

I have seen my fair share of LEOs with over-accessorized ARs that ultimately degrade their ability to perform due to fatigue caused by the excess weight. I've seen ARs with different buttons and pressure switches for a light, laser, low-output LED, IR laser, etc. I mean c'mon; how many buttons can you hang on a rifle anyway? I'm sure that it looks cool and chicks dig it, but I'd rather leave all that accessorizing to those who prefer to dazzle the chicks with their hardware.

My preference is to keep the weapon platform simple and light so that is what I advise others to do. I've trained with both kinds and feel that in 99.9% of the situations, that is the best combination you can ask for. Hell, I'm even thinking about getting rid of my Redi-Mag due to the extra weight right now.

As in all things in life, however, to each his own.


Saleen

[Rew]

I understand what you are saying and agree with most of it. The only reason I brought up the IR laser and PVS7's was in answer to your question about the last time I got to play with a set. I was on that range as a guest instructor, I had lots of expierance with the PVS7's but none with the laser. It was fun. As far as hanging stuff on my AR, partner I built a 5< lbs weapon for a reason. See below.
:Dhttp://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/8405Pwa15-med.jpg
That is my idea of a fully loaded AR for all types of combat, CQB or field (the bipod is for the photo). I have been known to add a bit of tape and cardboard spacers for an extra mag. I have never used a ready mag, how do you like yours?

RJ, as far as going through doors, a little C4 in the right spot and you come in through the wall, works better than a flashbang :D

[RJ Shooter]

:D

[saleen]

C4......... ah, the memories.


Saleen

[rick314]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter

Personally, I'd rather clear my house with a handgun - having a free hand to help with touch & feel in the dark is an advantage. A long gun requires a little more from the user.


Just wondered why not a shotgun.
I tend to think that the most likely time I will end up "clearing"the house will be a noise that woke me up or the dog is going apeshit in the middle of the night.

My vision, my alertness, my balance, my thought pattern will all be sleep y still. Adreneline is powerful and adds it`s own mechanics to the soup.
For all these reasons I like a weapon that will fill a doorway or hallway. Plus overpenetration is a concern here.
I like 000 buck and the last two are slugs.

I have a folding stock (pump) but just can`t like it. So I put the fixed stock on.
It`s light enough to handle with one hand to negotiate doors and such.

I always fgured the pistol is a good tool to get to a rifle or shotgun.

[Shawnster]

Originally posted by saleen
Rew,

the person who posed the accessorizing question did not appear to be in the military, I could only see all that hardware as add-ons that were unnecessary beyond being able to say you had something "just like the soldiers have". I'd rather suggest someone to save their money for reasonable accessories they would be more likely to use and spend the saved money on training courses and / or ammo. In the end it is the most practical thing and one that they will derive the greatest benefit from.


Saleen

That's what I'm looking for. I'm not military, I see the "soldiers" weopons and yes I do think there really cool. I don't see the point in someone like myself having all the "cool stuff" on my weopon that I'll spend tons of money on and never use or don't really have the knowledge or training to use it. I want it kept pretty simple and will help me out in the event that I would ever possably need it. Like I said before, I've got a preban Colt with a bayo lug, collasp stock, 11.5" barrell with 5.5" FS for the legal 16". It's a A2 fixed carry handle upper. Saleen is right on what I'm looking for. I know that I will get several different opinions on this subject. I will consider all of them and see what best fits my budget and what I plan on using the weopon for. I will be my CQB weopon that if ever needed will be used inside the house or outside of my home within 50-75 yards. I plan on buying a Postban AR 20" oneday in the future for anything further than that.

Rick314, I do also have a Mossburg 590, a .40 cal IMI,and an AK. The AK I plan on putting a red dot on it mainly for giggles and grins. Maybe I need to go to the Mossburg for in house stuff. I don't know. Thanks for all the replys and please keep them coming. Thanks again.

Shawn

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by rick314
Just wondered why not a shotgun...I always fgured the pistol is a good tool to get to a rifle or shotgun. Rick, I guess it's just a force of habit from the majority of my training. I love and work well with shotguns, but am the most comfortable with a handgun indoors for a couple of reasons.

If I'm hugging a wall, I can employ a handgun in any direction without shifting my body at all. That to me is an advantage over anything long. I can point the handgun one way and open a door the other, while still keeping a shallow profile. I can then have the handgun pointed the other way in a millisecond if needed.

If I am rushed from behind, laterally, or even the front, and the goblin ends up "on top" of me, I still have a chance to get him with the handgun. A long gun will take a lot more effort to get the muzzle on target. Being a lover of unarmed self defense, I can do a few things offensive with the butt of the long-gun, but would prefer to end the threat more quickly.

These are just a couple of the reasons.

A good subgun would be a different story however. :p Best of both worlds. But I don't own one, and don't use one professionally, so that's just fantasy to me. :D

OH, I think I've worked up the "wake the hell up" problem when something goes bump in the night. I purposely stub my toe on a nightstand or something to take away some of the sponge brain from a quick wake up!!! I learned it by accident, but it helped with the grogginess. I doubt there's anything other than being a hardened vet of these situations, that will stop the adrenaline.

[saleen]

In the world of CQB all have their place and each takes different skills to employ. If you ever look at a SWAT team making entry or training you might notice that different members have different weapons. Some go in with handguns, one or two with shotguns, and usually at least one "blue gun" for less-lethal munitions.

I personally prefer the carbine or subgun for the capacity and increased accuracy, but I'm perfectly comforatable with a handgun. Shotguns take some specialized skills to handle and are more difficult to transition (pump guns) due to muscle coordination and familiarity. Transitions to weak side with the carbine or subgun is easier and a holosight aids in the eye dominance problems.

For one-man "house clearing" efforts, my suggestion would be to stick with a pistol and tactical white light. This combination offers the greatest freedom of movement and flexibility in tight confines where a long gun will prevent you from having a usable weapon for the search of those small out of the way places. If you don't believe me, try searching your house at night with all three types of weapons and you'll see what I mean.

As far as ammo choices and overpenetration is concerned, there are plenty of handgun cartridges that offer reduced penetration options such as Glazer, etc. As far as shotguns are concerned, it is a common misconception that one will spread out to cover a whole doorway. Some might with ammo they don't like, but for the engagement distances we are talking about, I wouldn't count on any more spread from birdshot than 8-10 inches. My 18" cylinder bore model 97 does about that with Remington heavy dove loads. With double ought buck, all 9 stay in the K5 at 15 yards, so the spread really is a non-issue IMHO. The shotgun is a devastating short range weapon, but don't count on it to make up for your inherantly poor aim and remember that any unaccounted for rounds may have to be accounted for in you family. Accuracy wins fights and saves lives.....work on it as if the lives of those you care about depends upon it because in a worst case scenario, they will.

If you choose to go with a .223 choose your ammo wisely and don't skimp. Hornady TAP (up to 60 gr) is available with a ballistic tip design. Especially in the lower weights (40gr I think) the bullet all but disentigrates due to violent expansion, and overpenetration is actually less of an issue than it would be with a 9mm HP. Even the 60gr underperforms 9mmHP from an overpenetration standpoint. Other fine ammos for the .223 are out there I'm sure, but the TAP is the one I am most familiar with and the only one that I am authorized to carry on duty.


Saleen

[rick314]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
OH, I think I've worked up the "wake the hell up" problem when something goes bump in the night. I purposely stub my toe on a nightstand or something to take away some of the sponge brain from a quick wake up!!! I learned it by accident, but it helped with the grogginess. I doubt there's anything other than being a hardened vet of these situations, that will stop the adrenaline.

Oh.......now I see
I`m suppossed to get out of bed, find the leg of my nightstand in tha dark and kick the living shit out of it using just my toes. Damned if that solution wasn`t smacking me in the face all this time.:D


Hey Sallen, your right on the money in your last post.
And a driving reason I continued my "training" after the Army.
I even shoot the silly IPSC game once a month and Steel challenge twice a month interspersed with range time that is always spent `working`.
My pistol gaming is a bit frustrating as it`ll build bad habits if I let it, but if approached like a training aid I believe it`s qua;lity practice.
I`m gonna be 40 this year, my fiirst rifle was a 22 when I was 8 yo.
The one thing I have learned
Shooting skills deteriorate
What I could do yesterday will be forgotten unless I practice it often.

As a LEO type I believe you have to be in a certain type of unit to get to be able to practice often.
It sounds like the Army, you can be in a shit unit that just fills out PMCS` or a unit that takes life seriously. Sounds like you made good choices

[AKNUTZxx]

Talk about a whole lot of LOVE in this room, wow ;)

[saleen]

Rick314,

Actually, you are quite wrong about the department. Mandated / department sponsored training is quite frankly pathetic. In fact, there is a damn sight more time and energy expended into making sure vacation house watches and daily vehicle inspection / inventory (PMCS) sheets are done and filed away.

Even as a member of the SWAT team I have 7 or less range sessions PER YEAR sponsored / mandated by the department, and two of those are qualification sessions. Simply stated, the training I get and maintain is up to me. I happen to enjoy it (go figure) but I'd need more fingers and toes than I have to count how many fellow Officers in my department wouldn't have a problem if they NEVER went back to the range after they qualified once.

Over the last few years since the kids came I've found range sessions harder and harder to come by, and my skills reflect it. I just can't wait to get them old enough to participate. Hopefully I won't have too much catching up to do by then.


Oh, and Bowhunt is right. There IS alot of love in here :D


Saleen

[Glock 45]

:handgun:
Com'on now, don't be callin my favorite sport silly, I'm ex, semi retired LE and really look frowards to my 3 IPSC matches a month. Especially the 3 gun versions wher I get to work out with my Glock 21, fitted with 1st generation Busnell Halosight as well as my M4 with the same Bushnell Halosight. Then there's the Remington 1100 12 gage with the 10 round tube, fiber optics sights and capable of a 4" group at 100 yards.
The Eotech I metioned way above that got all this started is actually the 1st generation, with 2 allen head screws and the one on my G21 has withstood over 5,000 rounds of 45's and never worked loose or had to be adjusted. YThe one on the Bushmaster M4 has gone thru about 5,000 and is mounted on the RAS forend so I still have my carry handle sights as a backup so I have no problems with this set-up. As far as the "light" situation, a flash bang works pretty well and you usually don't have to squeeze one off, however have the local FD standing by.
IPSC forever, 3-Guns rule, A class senior shooter

[rick314]

I shoot USPSA for a few years now.
I used to shoot it 2-4 times a month, now just once a month.
I shoot Steel Madness twice a month to hone my accuracy..........the Steel started out as a way to practice for IPSC/USPSA because the targets are smaller and you NEED to hit them before moving on.
It has helped my scores at USPSA quite a bit.


I say silly because it is..................from a tactical or training point of view.
C`mon, who`s going to bring their SVI with a Optima to a gun fight? Gonna use those "major caliber" bullets?
Gonna strap on those silly speed loaders for your shotgun? Those things fall apart just from people running with them on.
I play that game like a training aid and I don`t speed reholster, or use loaded down ammo, or unrealistic equipment.
I play in either Limited 10 or Production and use stuff that works for me.
to me 3-gun is PURELY a game.

My rifle stages reflect my opinion on 3 gun.

I make my guys get into postions that don`t favor the gizmo laden rifle. Little ports, just below kneeling level, right and left handed barriers. prone and just a bit lower than prone.
Targets out past 300.....all kinds of things to challenge the rifleman.

It`s in it`s first stages but.

Look for PART
Practical
Applied
Rifle
Training

[saleen]

Excellent points Rick.

I make my guys get into postions that don`t favor the gizmo laden rifle.

:D That sort of coarse would just piss our firearms instructor off. Afterall, he's the one that opted for all the gizmos.


Saleen

[Rew]

someone over to read this thred so I'm moving it BTT.;)

[M-4]

Hi guy's. I'd like to add my thoughts to this conversation. I think that alot of people forget the basics on training. We rely to much on red dots, lasers,ect. And yes, I believe that the use of a flashlight could come in play as tactical conditions change. In my opinion, all you need is your pistol of choice, mine being a government 45, or what ever you choose to use in a room to room scenario. Mmp5,ar,shotgun,ect. Why take the time to have to look for a red dot to put it on your target. When you can just point shoot instead. I think it's faster and more practical for room to room and selfdefense. Just point your pistol or weapon of choice at your target and fire. Of course identify it. You should have no need to look thru your fixed sights, just point shoot. Now, If your talking about anything past ten or so yards then yes, a red dot would be faster. But for room to room, in my opinion you don't need (any kind of sights). I wouldn't want to have to take the time to look thru any kind of sight or have to look for a dot during a room to room scenario. I would be focusing on my target only. Just my opinion. Remeber this motto?(k.i.s.s.)= KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. have a good one guy's.

[saleen]

You have some good points, but accuracy and speed are the two reasons I use a red dot. If a situation dictates that a point shoot scenario is appropriate, then the red dot doesn't preclude that technique. However, when only a small portion of the target is visible, or there are innocents in close proximety, the red dot is my choice to use. In my experience, it is not noticably slower than the point shoot and results in less rounds expended to target defeat.

Think of it this way:

If you were the one in front or next to the bad guy, would you want me pointing or aiming?;)


Saleen

[M-4]

Hey there Saleen, When I mentioned room to room, I ment it as personal protection in my own home. I didn't mean it as a swat enrty with a hostage scenario. If I were going in like that, then yeah I'd want an MP-5 with all the bells and whistles. I would want the advantage in fire power over the bad guy. But even though I have an ar-15 carbine with all the bells and whistels next to me in my locker. I still prefer my government 45 to clear my home. I guess maybe I'm from the old school. And Yeah, the red dot is good for a hard to do shot, in the scenario your stating. But for me, I'll stick with my 45 for personal protection and or in my home, still not knowing what the bad guy has, just assuming the worst. But for law enforcement, well that's a whole differant ball game. Rick

[B Wood]

I used to be in the "Keep it stock" group of people. Over the years though....my weapons have slowly evolved.

First off.....whatever you install...make sure it is durable, and high quality.

Secondly....train with the weapon that has the bells and whistles on it. Do not remove them to go to the range....train with what you use.

Thirdly - Use what makes you feel the most comfortable with your rig.

Here are my observations on what I have gone through:

Night Sights - Trijicon / Meprolight - Invaluable tools. Should really be called "Low Light Sights" There are great in twilight situations, and increase accuracy during this time preiod. Many install only the front...but I prefer both front and rear. Some people will use different colors on the front compared to the rear to guarantee sight alignment. (Yes you can line up the dots in very low light and have the front sight to the left or right of the rear sight dots. Diff colors prevent this. The various colors will give a shorter lifetime than the standard green dots. I prefer all green personally.

http://www.trijicon-inc.com/

Flashlight - First gun I ever had a light on was a H&K 94A3. The gun came with the Surefire light forearm. Once I start using this.....I never looked back. Just beacause I have a light...doesn't mean that it is on all the time. A very high quality light such as a Surefire, has a suprise element and literally can stun a person into disorientation...giving me valuable time to put rounds down range if I need to. To really understand how powerful these light are....have a buddy shine one at you unexpectedly in a pitch black room. My Colt CAR-15 in 9mm, and my H&K 94 both have Surefire lights on them now.

http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/16/sesent/00

Ambi Safeties - I am a lefty. It make it a much easier gun to use for both righties and lefties. A must have.

Side Sling adaptors - I like them. If I can carrying a gun..I want it accessible. The GG&G series are easy to use. Keeps the gun handy. There are two models...a Quick detachable model swivel, and the standard model with non-detachable swivels. I prefer the non-QD models as they are less likely to have the QD swivel fail and come out of the attachment when you least expect it. (Yes I have seen this happen).

http://www.gggaz.com

Rails handguards - Offer tremendous flexibility. If you want to try one without a huge expense...look at SAMCO M33 handguards. Very nice...and is an intro level rail set. I only mount on the bottom rail...using a Samco light holder on my CAR-15. I also found that GG&G makes an excellent foreward grip.....that makes handling my CAR-15 a dream in close quarters.

http://www.firstsamco.com/

Red Dot sights - I like them. They are QUICK when set up right...i.e....right height. I use an Aimpoint ML on my Colt M4A3. Very fast....very easy to use...and accurate to get hits quick. I prefer either A.R.M.S 22M68 Aimpoint detachable mounts, or GG&G. Do NOT short change yourself here by going cheap on the mount. Also....a nice feature is the Aimpoint Double battery module.....it allows you to install 2 batteries...effectively doubling your battery life...(which is not a worry with the new Aimpoints).

http://www.aimpoint.com/

Backup sights - Since I use an Aimpoint on my M4....I have an ARMS #40 rear flip sight as a backup. Quick into action. Excellent zero retention. If you use a redot sight...have iron sights backing it up.

http://www.armsmounts.com/

Lasers - Not interested one bit in these. I might be if it were infrared, and I had a set of ITT night vision goggles....too much money for very limited advantage in normal non-military situations.

Slings - A good tactical sling can be worth it's weight. Eagle, Blackhawk (I hate mentioning them since they make their stuff in Vietnam), Tactical Tailor, all have great slings. I prefer Eagle.

http://www.eagleindustries.com/

Mag clamps - Nice addition......keeps 2 mags with the weapon. Buffer Tech has a nice one!

http://www.buffertech.com/

Listen to your own voice of reason about what you need on your weapon.

Good Luck!

B Wood