thinking about full auto

[dirtybob]

thinking about getting a full auto parts kit and a milled reciver to put away somewhere(burried out back) just in case of a SHTF situation. how hard would it be to use blue prints for a full auto reciver and hand tools to put together a FA using hand tools? also im wondering if the reciver and the actuall full auto kit are legal if there are in two phisically difrent places say: reciver in my basement and the kit in an igloo cooler out back 6ft under. could that be considered "intent" to make a FA and just be asking for a visit from the B.A.T.F? thanks
DB

[PvtPyle]

What you have just done is solicit people to aid you in commiting a felony on an open message board. You have just given the ATF enough to kick in your door in the wee hours of the morning and ruin the rest of your life. No one in their right mind is going to give you any help now because we have all seen this type of post before, from feds trying to make a bust. Are you a fed or just foolish?

------------------
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and Patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight and nothing that he cares about more than his personal saftey is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.- John S. Mill


As long asd a hundered of us remain alive we will never be subject to tyranical dominion because it is not for glory, or riches, or honours that we fight, but for the freedom alone which no worthy man losews except with his life.-The Declaration of Arboath, 1320

Clan Graham - Ne Oubli!

[dirtybob]

no, i was asking if it would be a feloney. and the batf cant bust down my door for thinking about somthing. its not consipracey. thats why i asked before i did. duh. get a grip man. thanks
DB

[PvtPyle]

Bob, there are people in jail right now because they told someone how to make a weapon fullauto. Solicitation and conspiracy are two charges they use to nial you when they dont have anything else.

And you did ask

how hard would it be to use blue prints for a full auto reciver and hand tools to put together a FA using hand tools?

Remember? I wont touch this and neither will anyone else. Sorry.

------------------
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and Patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight and nothing that he cares about more than his personal saftey is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.- John S. Mill


As long asd a hundered of us remain alive we will never be subject to tyranical dominion because it is not for glory, or riches, or honours that we fight, but for the freedom alone which no worthy man losews except with his life.-The Declaration of Arboath, 1320

Clan Graham - Ne Oubli!

[dirtybob]

exactly i asked how hard it would be to do, not "hey tell me how to do this illegal thing". re-read then jump to conclusions.
thanks
DB

[clay]

Bob,
what you would have is called "Constructive Possession of an Unregistered Machine Gun", if you had the F/A parts kit, and the receiver, even if that receiver was not modified from its semi-auto form. This is the same as having an unregistered machine-gun, and it is NOT a wise or legal thing to do. Posting this here is also NOT a wise thing to do, and I would encourage you to NOT break the law. Just pony up the bucks and buy a registered full auto AK, or get your Class 2 manufacturers license and legally make anything that you want. I know that you were just asking a hypothetical question, but it is one that is a red flag to all law-abiding Class 3 owners, and to all Law Enforcement officials. I guarantee that the money that is spent for a registered full-auto AK is worth every penny of it's purchase price in fun, and that $4000-$5500 that it would cost would be nothing compared to what you'd pay your lawyer and the court in fees and fines, not to mention the jail time...

[dirtybob]

That’s exactly why I asked instead of doing, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t buying a one way ticket to the federal bubba-love fun camp. I cant believe that asking a question like this got such negative responses on the same board where people talk about shooting NATO troops that come for there guns. I asked a question that, granted someone should probably have been able to get the answer from reading the NFA, but I thought it would be better to ask here. If I wanted to illegally make a FA I wouldn’t tell anyone about it. Was just thinking out loud about what I would like to have in a SHTF scenario. thanks
DB

[clay]

You know, your post got me thinking about a 'SHTF' scenario. I don't think that I personally would take an AK, full or semi-auto, if I had a choice into a 'SHTF'. I think probably something in .308 would be a better choice. I have owned a dozen AK's, and none of them have the kind of accuracy that I personally would want out of a 'survivor' rifle. I have found that you can cut your groups sizes in half using Black Hills Match Grade 7.62x39 ammo, but that's still not good enough for the tack-driving accuracy that might be required in a survival situation. Maybe just a good deer rifle would be a better choice for me.

[dirtybob]

i was thinking full auto to get my to the woods. accuracey by volume, but i would take my .270 along with me. i was thinking more about the first few hours of a SHTF sceinerio, probibly gunna need alot of fire power to get out of the city, or to where ever your gunna go. thanks
DB

[MG_JIM]

BOB are you parinoid? hummm! nothing is going to happen. the ATF uses metal detectors
they would find it! yep they would even drain septec tanks i heard they take no S^%$
http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif. they would destroy your house shoot your dogs and threaten your Wife or Kids! or shoot them they have no problems killing kids. yes ive seen it with a Friend he was
a hacker and FBI trashed every thing they destroyed his house he did 5 years in club fed! if gore would of won the election ive heard they were trying to get it to were they would come in and search your home if you had blueprints or any manuals they would
confiscate them BUT i think it was a Bill but it was thrown out so i don't know.

[Azalin]

I generally would not tell someone how to make a full auto weapon. What I am wondering is how is that illegal? You can order books or find them at gun shows that will tell you all that you need to know. Last I checked the first amendment protects the freedom of speech atleast to some degree. I have never heard of a law that banned any book let alone ones about full auto conversion. Also how is telling someone about it illegal?

Second have people on this board been busted for telling someone this information? Everyone seems really parinoid?

Wayne

[dirtybob]

you gotta think that if they can throw out the second amendmment they dont give a damn about the first. thanks
DB

[MickeyMose]

We are NOT paranoid because that is a delusion! What we ARE is afraid of our own government because they ignore the law and generally use heavy handed tactics similar to hitler! They abuse the conspiracy laws to get you when they have nothing else to work with. You gotta stay squeaky clean to have a chance of avoiding trouble from the gubamint.

You want a FA for SHTF then I suggest you purchase a legal one and have a ball of fun. You want a "hot" one when SHTF, take one from a "bad" guy!

[amstel78]

You people are too friggin paranoid. Do you honestly think the ATF is gonna waste their time on someone asking about FA conversions? Hell you can order 40 page armorer books that describe the process step by step.

Quit worrying to much, you'll have a heart attack.

[royce]

I agree with PvtPyle.
Bob, the only thing you left out was the actual map of your home.
Dumb post the way you worded it.
You're poking that sleeping guard dog.
This is not just talk, this s you declaring that you are considering such action with orethought & detail & consideration.
Dumb...very dumb.

[dirtybob]

How is thinking dumb? I am perfectly legal. The BATF can come over anytime and look around. I have nothing to hide. All my weapons are legal; I have no manuals or full auto books. No illegal parts. My ammo complies with the local regulations. They are all locked away, except my CC witch I keep with me at all times. What are you all so afraid of? There is no conspiracy in talking because conspiracy needs proof of intent. Which does not exist in this case. So I ask again, what are all you afraid of? The people who have posted here scolding me for thinking and asking questions seem to have a serious problem with amendment number one. I under stand that if I had bought full auto parts, manuals, conversion directions etc. And had the intent to make an unregistered MG that would be a problem. But as I stated before I didn’t, and I’m not. I find it childish to say anything I have posted about this topic dumb. Granted there are differences in opinion, and granted I could have done something illegal, but you forget I have done nothing other than ask, "how hard it would be". I didn’t ask how too. I was looking for construtive criticism, not criticism. I also find it odd that most people on this board, and some of those who posted replies to my topic, bitch about the current state of gun rights. Have you all forgotten that the MG laws are illegal? Scores of other guns laws are also illegal. When you so blindly fallow the rules to the point of pointing out any minor irregularity in a person’s compliance with a law that you yourself loath show compliance and lack of will to fight for what you believe in. Isn’t that odd. We all can see the line in the sand clearly. We all wish it wasn’t there. But few act to change what we don’t like in our own country. Are you so critical with GM, Ford, and Chrystler for making automobiles that pollute our planet? What about McDonalds for contributing to the amount obese people in the world? Has one of you blamed Budweiser or Miller for drunk drivers? No, I don’t believe you have. So why have you targeted me for thinking freely and asking questions? Knowledge is power and I was simple trying to assertane an answer to a subject I feel passionately about. Plain and simple. I would like to thank everyone for posting a reply. I would also like to thank people for caring about my freedom enough to tell me doing what I asked about in my first post would end up being a lot of trouble. I think a much better reply to my original post would have been; "You know Bob, that would be illegal. But if you wanted to go that route it wouldn’t be that hard to do." Share information freely, it seems to be the only thing we have left. Thank you all for your time.
DB

[Southern_Shark]

I think that people were just trying to emphasize that its a bad idea to do what you had envisioned. Sometimes you have to be a little harsh to get the message across.

Besides, I don't think an F/A weapon would be all that useful in the situation you want it for. If you want it for a riot type situation where order will eventually be restored then you are making a big mistake. Who do you think is going to be the FIRST guy prosecuted when order is eventually restored?? Do you think it will be the gang members who looted Big K-mart? I bet it will be the white guy driving around town firing his full auto AK.

Now if you envision a true end of society type situation, well a F/A is still a bad idea. You aren't going to be able to carry a lot of ammo with you out of town. And ammo is going to be too valuable to go around wasting it. You are better off spending a lot of time at the range practicing to make each shot count.

Just MHO.

-SS

[royce]

Dirtybob, your last post is very dramatic and full of flag waving, but playing that old 'saw' of blaming someone else for your mis-deeds is tired.
No one is forced to eat at McDonald's.
The difference between your post and Ford, GM, etc...is that they have not broken the law by legally marketing their products. You, on the other hand, are announcing your desires to do just that, complete with plans.
Like I said, the only thing you left out is the actual map and maybe driving directions to your home.
Laws are changed through voting which is what most of us did in November, and hopefully it will pay off. That is how America has worked successfuy for over 200 years. Try not to fix it too much because it ain't really broke.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">thinking about getting a full auto parts kit and a milled reciver to put away somewhere(burried out back) just in case...</font>
While thinking is legal, you have made a public announcement that you are considering to commit this crime. Conspiracy to commit a felony.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">how hard would it be to use blue prints for a full auto reciver and hand tools to put together a FA using hand tools? </font>
Request for knowledge is OK, but this becomes supporting evidence for your intent & forethought when in context with your first statement.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">also im wondering if the reciver and the actuall full auto kit are legal if there are in two phisically difrent places say: reciver in my basement and the kit in an igloo cooler out back 6ft under.</font>
In this statemnt you clearly understand that owning the F/A kit is in itsef illegal, but wiped clean through some magic of physical distance, both horizontal & vertical.

Re-read your own post and try to judge it objectively. Then you will understand why some of us were taken by surprise. We are not afraid...far from it. We are aware of the ramifications of not only our actions but of our words.

[dirtybob]

I have re-read my own post. Would it be illegal if I posted this on a car board? :
"I drive a 72 dodge truck and was thinking about putting "glass packs" on it. I know they're loud and I would probably get a ticket, but how hard would they be to put on? I don’t have any welding equipment, only hand tools, and ideas? Thanks
DB"

To your standards, that too would be conspiracy, and in Seattle it would be illegal. Considered and unmuffled automobile. What about the SHTF posts where people talk about shooting UN forces who come for their guns? No one there has gotten any flack, or if they have it doesn’t compare to the amount I have gotten here. I understand had I followed through with my plans it would have been illegal. But the law is illegal and as far as I can tell voting hasn’t gotten us anywhere. The laws will continue to pile up. It doesn’t matter who we put in office. There will be more gun legislation passed. I believe some of you have been institutionalized into thinking this law and others of the like are legal. What’s wrong with you? I’m sure some of you are vetrans of forgen wars who have fought, and have been possible wounded in battle for a country who regards some of your most fundamental rights as dribble. The word sheeple comes to mind. Being afraid of something more powerful than you are normal. But being unwilling to cross the line in the sand because "they" tell you it is wrong is weakness. The only reason people fallow the rules are because "they" say they are laws. We, the people didn’t say they are laws. We have called them stupid, but that is all. We have done almost nothing to change what we feel is wrong.
As for those of you who feel I have committed conspiracy, I’m sure you all know it takes two things to commit this crime:

One: thought i.e. "thinking about getting a full auto parts kit and..."

Two: action to support that thought i.e. buying a full auto parts kit, manual, book etc.

I have done one of those. Thought is what I have. No action. Once again I ask you to re-read my posts. Have we become Nazi Amerika where thoughts are banned? Don’t think so. If you still think I have done something wrong I would think you would tell the proper authorities. Like the BATF. I will be as helpful as possible in this process. My nameis Brad Hawk, number is 360-352-0932 and my e-mail address is djtrainwreq@home.com fell free to let them know about my alleged wrong doings. That would seem to me to be the best course of action at this point if you think I have done something wrong. Because if I have, you don't want' to be associated with me. One felon would bring down a lot of law-abiding citizens. Once again thanks for your time.
DB

[royce]

DB, we're all on the same side here.
We all fight the fight in our own ways.
Some think that calling attntion to our cause with statements of illegal action may be counter-productive to our publc reltions problem. PR is what wins votes & elections & change.

[Repairoman]

Dirtybob, Big difference between a pick up and glasspack mufflers and an unregistered machinegun. If you don't think so, put a full auto AK in the back window of your f-150 with dual glasspacks and park it outside of an ATF branch office. Then say to your lawyer, "tell me again, was it the mufflers or was it the gun?"
Bottom line is what you did wasn't too smart.

[PvtPyle]

DB, First of all my name is PVTPYLE, not Valmet. Only a fucking low life piece of shit would nark out a fellow gun owner to the ATF. End of story. I understand your question and where you are coming from. You must understand where Myself and others are coming from.

The primary difference between putting out a video as a Class II, for Class II's or a book on how to preform the conversion is that you are just one person exercising your first ammendment rights as your job(that of being a manufacturer of class III weapons) may require. From one stand point they can talk about it all day long between other members of the NFA weapon community. If they tell a person who doesn't hold an SOT and that person makes an illegal conversion and gets caught, the SOT holder can and most likely will be charged with and convicted with conspiracy to commit a felony by providing information to the person commiting the crime. Think it doesn't happen try again. Ask Ken Lawmaster. They tore his house apart for being over heard discussing the DIAS for the AR-15. Someone narked him out, simple as that.

I never said you commited something that would be considered a conspiracy to commit a crime, aiding you by telling you how to avoid/skirt the law would be. Conspiracy involves no action related to the crime itself, it is the planning and preperation to do so.

I will not give the Nazi's any info on you, if you feel that is what needs to be done then go right ahead and do it yourself, although I you try to discourage you. If I wanted nothing to do with you I wouldn't post anything to you to try to help you understand where some of us are coming from, and why it is not considered by the vast majority of gun owners to be very foolish, or unwise to post those types of questions on an open board. Is it paranoid? Maybe, but with the mentality the ATF has at this point most of us would prefer them to be completely oblivious to our existance. Once you show up on their radar screens, you never fall off.

If you are interested in the atrocities of the ATF then I can email you a list and brief story on around 25 people that have fallen victim to them. Try the James Bardwell board for more links. The guys on subguns can also give you more sources for these things. Did you know that almost 55% of people in jail for firearms related crimes (the primary crime, not an add on that relates to firearms such as armed robbery and an add on for it being an SBR) are in there for conspiracy charges? Now am I paranoid?

------------------
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and Patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight and nothing that he cares about more than his personal saftey is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.- John S. Mill


As long as a hundered of us remain alive we will never be subject to tyranical dominion because it is not for glory, or riches, or honours that we fight, but for the freedom alone which no worthy man loses except with his life.-The Declaration of Arboath, 1320

Clan Graham - Ne Oubli!

[dirtybob]

Repairman. I know there is a difference in the two. But you missed the point, as I knew some would. If I had posted asking how hard it would be to install glass packs I wouldn’t have gotten all the flack that I had. I didn’t ask HOW to make a MG I asked how HARD it would be to do.
How hard would it be to tint my windows?
Is it hard to jaywalk?
How hard is it to cheat on my taxes?
Get the idea?
I still say that most of you misunderstood my original question. I asked how hard it would be. Also I have written to the BATF including a complete copy of this post and its follow-ups. I omitted all names except for my own. They can decide. They know where to find me. And I do know where you are coming from. Coming from the same place as a liberal when you say nigger. The get all huffed because they don’t like it. If you didn’t like what I have had to say in this post there was no need to get ticked, and for one of you, call me dumb. I will continue to talk about full auto. And I will not go to jail. If I decide to make a full auto weapon, I might. But until then I still stand firm in my knowledge that I have done nothing wrong, and nothing to warrant some of the follow up posts I have received. Thanks
DB

[Dugedug]

I was always under the impression that it isn't illegal to own a pre/post ban ak. It is not illegal to own the FA parts(bolt, pin,..) and I was also under the impr. that it is not illegal owning info(books, vids) on how to convert or make a MG. I'll have to look at the type again. But I'm pretty sure it said something to the effect that as long as it wasn't assembled or in the same vecinety(i.e parts touching each other in the trunk of my car), it isn't illegal. I'll have to do a quick search and post the section if/when I find it.

[Dugedug]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faqm.htm

#28. This probably includes what I mentioned earlier. Guess I was wrong. I'm going to do some more digging later tonight to find out were/why I heard it was legal to own the parts. If I don't get back to you, send bond money to the nearest ATF agent http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

[dirtybob]

thanks for the heads up dugedug. so then. would that mean that all parts except the sear, sear spring and pin are leagal to own? interesting. also got an e-mail from someone asking me how to convert thier "mak47" into a MG. i dont even know what a mak47 is. maybe a mak90 variant? the person wants specific parts needed also. someone out there trying to catch me in something? if it's a member of this board all i have to say is: HAH! we're having a simi-heated discussion about the laws of the land i.e. how not to break them. and if i did know how, you think i would ask some many questions? what do you all think? troll or someone trying to prove a point with me? thanks
DB

[royce]

DB, believe it or not, the members here arguing with you about your post are ALL your friends. We're just lookng out for ya', buddy. You just seem to be drifting off into a bad place with that first post of yours.

Dugedug, yes, you were wrong. You cannot be an AK owner AND have the 'fixins' to make an MG. Even if you have them in two different Cities! You own them...you have intent to manufacture. Some parts will even stand ON THEIR OWN to be considered an MG if they can readily convert a semi-auto into an MG, which means you don't even have to own the AK to be in violation.
Where did you hear it? Just about every third or fourth ignorant gun-owner in this country who remains uneducated about the laws, which are admittedly difficult to navigate.
I personally blame the NRA outright. As a member I have given up complaining to them about their lack of attention to firearms LAW in American Rifleman. Also, they should be sending out newsletters about the LAW & how to stay legal. I don't know why they are ignoring what I consider THE most important gun topic...Federal LAW.

[jehh]

You know, I have to wonder what most of you are thinking...

Many of you state that the BATF is "out to get you" and they will find any reason to throw Class 3 types into jail.

Well, if that is true why are you whining about it here? Do something about it...

You know as well as I do that sooner or later they will just up and decide you cannot have your guns anymore. They have a nice list of your names and addresses, and while that list is not perfectly correct, it is enough so.

Will you still whine when they come knock on your door and take your select fire guns away?

When has it been enough? Whining about the BATF doesn't do anything, voting Republican doesn't help, George W. Bush will support standard guns, he wouldn't help the Class 3 crowd, and sooner or later a Liberal Democrat will be back in office.

Guess what? If you don't do something now, later will be too late. Otherwise you are all full of hot air...

Do you really believe in your rights? Do you really believe that the government is taking them away? Do you believe you would have support from ANY part of the government? If so, start a movement to deal with the BATF. Here is a hint... Signing petitions isn't part of it, writing your congressman isn't either...

Sooner or later you will have a choice, give up the guns, or choose to take those rights back. Are you full of hot air, or do you really believe you are right?

Only time will tell...

Jason

(PS. to those who think I'm trying to flame or be a PITA, I am not (I do not own any NFA weapons due to cost, but I would if the cost were reasonable). Just pointing out one of the biggest problems with this whole issue, most people don't care enough to fight for what they believe in, they would rather roll over than deal with it. Many people here say they would keep something buried away, that may well be true, but what good does that do? Just a further acceptance of the erosion of your rights.)

[jehh]

Side note to my last post.

I was waxing poetically and I think I got carried away.

To anyone who took that as a rant or insult, please do not. I get carried away when I'm feeling patriotic. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

Jason

[dirtybob]

jehh i agree. short of violent boody revoulution, we will not get our rights back. but what are you gunna do when this many people sit infront of there computers debaiting my post? not much. id love to do somthing but an army of one can do nothing but die and be forgotten. thanks
DB

[MG_JIM]

How many people in the us would grab there
weapons and spill there blood for freedom
? very few and far between TALK thats all it
is iam telling you what would be good for you
to have an F/A weapon for just in case senario when 90% of these people will turn you in to the feds, espacially if there's money involed "Reward" Talks! we has a sopposed civilized culture likes to Fuck one and another over i don't even trust my family
in a servival situation i beleave a with the
rest a little treat would make them turn But
there noit trained for that eather so. how do i know 90% of my own people would FUCK me I do know from the past. one thing i teach my kids is that everyone will Fuck you over sooner or later but hey i look at it this way if sociaty collapses I have a list of certain people i will get even with, and that's a promise that i keep to myself. instead of invisioning government troops with crosshairs placed on there heads think about those fuckers you work with or that fat ass SOB next door bitching to the police that you fart roung!

[turbonatr]

sigh....

------------------
Glock/Colt AR-15/Mossberg...*The* Combat Team
In GLOCK we trust
www.GlockTalk.com (http://www.GlockTalk.com)
www.AR15.com (http://www.AR15.com)

[This message has been edited by turbonatr (edited 01-27-2001).]

[maelcum]

Most of you do nothing to dispel the (commonly held) notion that Class III collectors are a bunch of elitist snobs whose resistance when faced with gun confiscation will consist of a meek shout of "I'll call my lawyer!"

Americans have a right to own whatever kind of guns they want, period. They also have the right to talk about literally anything they want to. The fact that there are "laws" in the US Code that attempt to prevent you from exercising your first and second ammendment rights should not lead you to stop exercising those rights. Rather, you should employ those rights to ensure that no one dares to enforce illegal code.

If fifteen upstanding citizens in a row were killed over arcane gun regulations, the country would probably sit up and take notice. If thirty or forty stormtroopers were killed in the same "raids," it would raise some real big "made-for-tv" questions.

The main reason we have unreasonable and illegal laws on the books today is because not enough people were (and are) willing to die, and yes also KILL, for their rights.

A man who owns a gun and is still afraid to even speak freely might as well not have a gun!

[clay]

I believe that the reason that we have so many 'illegal' gun laws is not because people aren't willing to die, as was posted above, but because the politicians have incremently taken them away, and not had one BIG gun ban.
Is a ban on flash-hiders worth dying for? No. Is a ban on bayonet mounts, or on future manufacture of large capacity magazines worth a dirt nap to anyone? Probably not.
When you put all these bans and anti-gun laws together, they add up to lot's of gun regulations that we have to suffer with. However, they weren't all passed at one time. Those few times that a big anti-gun regulation (like the assault-weapons ban) was passed, people went and voted those politicians who voted for the gun bans out of office. The folks in Washington know that any anti-gun vote costs them in the next election, but the special interest groups keep the pressure on them. And don't think that it's "for the children", or any crap like that. Most of this do-gooder legislation either has a socialist slant, or in the words of the famous phrase-"Follow the money."
I think that the larger problem is that the exposure that the average person today, the 'Sally Soccermoms' (moniker) has to firearms is usually a bad portrayal of them in the hands of law-breakers on TV. Just this morning a woman told me that she would be scared to have a gun in the house, because she was afraid of them, and the fact that someone might use it against her. I'm working on her, though. I asked her to go shooting with me, and I'll start her off with a 22 lr. pistol. Once she realizes that the gun doesn't possess a threat to her, and she's not afraid of it anymore, then the 'real' gun education will start.
Everyone of us should be out there doing this type of thing--grassroots pro-gun campaigning with just one of your co-workers or friends, or neighbors that has never shot a gun. Start them with something light (like a 22 lr.), and then if they want to go to something a larger caliber, move them into it slowly.
I guess that I'm considered one of those "Class 3 Elitist Snobs". However, I try to change the hearts and minds of those in my corner of the world. And I believe that you'll find that everyone that knows me will tell you that I definitely won't be shouting "Where's my lawyer?" when/if the SHTF.

---------------------------------------------
"If we don't hang together, we will surely hang separately."

[Rusty Shackleford]

I have been following this post off and on, since it started, and I notice in all the argueing and political discussion, no one has answered the question. After all, everyone is so paranoid because so many people are arrested for illegal firearms. They are arrested for the reason that is the same answer to the mans queation. BECAUSE WHAT HE IS ASKING IS EASY!!! Just proof to the fact that the firearms laws in this country don't work. I am sorry, but I refuse to give up my first amendment rights too!

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They can have my guns, but they have to take my ammunition first.

[dirtybob]

Yes Rusty, this post has gone from a question, to a semi pissing match over who is more in love with guns laws than ohters. i never thought that when i posted it for the first time i would get so much of a responce. now that i have done some reading i have found the answer to my original question. it would be fairly easy to modifi a semi-auto ak into a full-auto ak. seems alot of people were looking out for my saftey/legallity, but i still think its pretty lame that no one really answerd my question. i still havent gotten a responce from my letter to the batf. i asked them if what i had posted as my original question was in fact "conspiracey". the jury is still out so it seems. so at this point it doesnt matter what the BATF says. i got the information that i wanted. also in the wake of this latest shooting(60 some od year old in chicago i think it was) im sure new legislation is need to protect sociatey agaist elderlys with guns. i think we should put a cap on the legal age of gun ownership. 50 is a nice round number. no one over fifty gets to own a gun. i just cant belive this coutry has gone this far with out a huge huge revolution. i beleave the next one will be the poor against the ritch, again. but as long as people can jump in thier envorment raping suv, pound down big macks, have an ice cold bud or 12, plow into a bus full of nuns and then put all the blame on GM, MCdonalds, and Anihizer Busch(SP?) things will continue to get worse. But in the words of Dennis Miller "Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." thanks
DB

------------------
Damnit Mulder, get your head out of your ass!

[sar01]

If the govt. can come git me so easy for just talking about how to convert a semi to full auto how come I can go to the aa-ok web site and order a video on the subject that will walk me right through the process?

[QUICK DRAW]

ALLA DIEM RICHTER DIEN MACTT CIEZZAT ON DIAANE

[Crazy Fingers]

I really hate to be the one to drag this old dog up out of the dirt, but I think we might be able to get something positive out of this.

I think clay really has the right idea. Alone we can make a very small difference, but there's enough of us around that a small difference can add up to a big one.

Just today I made plans to take an anti-gunner out shooting with me. It's hard to convince them to do so, and even harder to convince them to think positively about firearms. But it's possible.

She's not the first one I've taken out either. She's the third that I've really worked/working hard on. If every one of us could convince 3 people, then we'd be in the majority again, by far.

So when you see that liberal ass bitch in the office with the 'I will not accept GWB's election' attitude, don't cuss her out (even though we'd all love to http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif ), take her out. And I mean that in a good way http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

[andy@recycledelectrons.com]

This message was deleted because I am not an extremist, and will not argue against these extremists anymore. I am going back to the CNN.com forums.

Andy

[JCross]

ummm,not sure if this belongs, but i was wondering, in the United States, how much it cost to have a license to own a full auto, (believe its a class III) ? i was planning on buying an ak47, not sure if it is full auto or modified to a semi , but it was a killer deal $225. please email me with an answer, i probably wont find the response to this if it is posted on the website. thanks a lot -JCross

[Circuits]

There is no license required to own a full auto - just to manufacture, import or deal in firearms in general.

For an individual to own a full auto, it must be legal in their state (35 states allow private ownership), and they must pay a $200 one-time transfer and registration tax and undergo an FBI background check.

[JCross]

alright thanks, helped alot, just gotta wait 3 more years, lol

[andy@recycledelectrons.com]

This message was deleted because I am not an extremist, and will not argue against these extremists anymore. I am going back to the CNN.com forums.

Andy

[ItalianFire]

Andy you have to pay the tax-stamp on every FA and sliencer you own.........yeah you even have to pay $200 freaking dollars for a tax stamp! The $200 stamp is transferable to your next of kin kind of thing though!!!!

As far as #2 goes that would be very cool but I don't think it has or will ever happen!!

#3 I've heard of alot of people with machining skills that went that route and saved alot of $$$$$$$$$

[andy@recycledelectrons.com]

This message was deleted because I am not an extremist, and will not argue against these extremists anymore. I am going back to the CNN.com forums.

Andy

[Circuits]

Well, Andy, that's the route I went (although I've got a bunch of transferrable machineguns, too).

The only problems with being a manufacturer are that you must engage in manufacturing, and turn a profit (eventually) in order to keep the license. But yes, you can pay for that tax stamp for a long time with the money you save on a transferrable M16.

As for plans, there are blueprints sets available, but you've got to know machining in order to be able to execute them.

The simplest guns for an 07/C2 to convert from semi auto are probably the AR-15 to M16, and semi-auto FAL to full auto - both still require a milling machine, however, and at least a little bit of machining experience to do properly.

There are other areas of manufacture open to an 07/C2, however, such as making and registering short-barrel rifles and shotguns, or making AOW (not stock, and a 2nd handgrip for a rifle design, made from a 'virgin' receiver). On a weapons system like the AR-15, this requires no machining work at all - just marking the lowers, assembling them with a short barrel upper (and/or 2nd handgrip for the AOW), and then registering it. Newly made SBR, SBS, AOW and suppressors are all fully transferrable, too - unlike newly made machineguns.

[commander]

There is a large number of folks that would support a change in the right to own NFA guns. Someone has to get the ball rolling so dirtybob this might be your calling. I am not a leader but you might be and I would help as would other folks. Most of us sit around and bitch but don't do anything. Well short of taking over Washington what should we do? BTW the ATF is really a lawless orgination that will stop at nothing if they think that they can get you and your guns. Cleaning up or disbanding the ATF would be a good start !

[PvtPyle]

Comander, I agree with you completely about the ATF. But it will never happen and anyone that thinks so is living in major denial. When was the last time our government got rid of an agency, or even made major changes to it? It is not the nature of the beast to reduce it's size, only to continue to grow. The only way to bring about a change like this is thru force. Power comes from the barrel of a gun, and they know(and use) that as well.

As for changes to the NFA, or to open up registration again, you are pissing in the wind there to. No one would like to see it happen more than me!!!! But the reality is that they wont do it. This all started back in the 70"s and people have been pushing for it since then. People that have political clout and the money to throw at this project. Still nothing has happened even after two Congressional reviews.

If this is a tax generating measure, then why dont they open it up? I dont have the money to buy a registered MG, but I have the money to buy and SAR and the parts to have a class 2 build and register it for me! The fact is that they dont want to because that will give the populace they want to disarm more fire power. They dont want clear up the registry because that would clear up lots of issues that they currently can use to make busts, cost people their money and freedoms, and help them with their budgets for the next year.

There are also alot of collectors and dealers out there that dont want this to happen because the sudden flood of new MG's on the market would rip the ass out of the value of their collections and inventory. Why would you pay $8500 for and MP5 when you can buy the kits from FAC, the FA parts from AA-OK and have it built for under $2000? Now these guys are sitting on a MAJOR loss in their investment. It would be suicide for most of them.

If someone has a new take on how to bring this about, I am all ears and so are alot of other people. But so far lots of people with far more insite into the laws and current situation regarding this whole thing have yet to figure out a way to bring it about. A new perspective cant hurt though....

[andy@recycledelectrons.com]

This message was deleted because I am not an extremist, and will not argue against these extremists anymore. I am going back to the CNN.com forums.

Andy

[schkoot]

DirtyBob,

Just 2-3 months ago, my friend WAS raided by the ATF for suspision of dealing F/A wepons. Well he wasnt, so he just got his guns back, but not before they trashed his house, and scared the S*** out of him. When it was over he had to sell practically all his guns, AND his car just to pay lawyer fees.

I will tell you with confidence that he didnt have anything to do with full auto wepons. I know because he and I have been friends for years and I have personally shot all his guns. When I bought my AK from him, he was very explicit in saying that my gun couldnt and shouldnt be made full auto. Even though we all know it could.

Before this happened, I might have thought like you. But I was lucky and learned by example. Its not a joke.

[Lamron]

It is illegal to own CONVERSION parts and the gun they go in at the same time. Full-auto parts are not conversion parts because they will not fit in a semi-auto gun and make it full auto. The AR15 lightening link is a conversion part because it drops in the unaltered receiver. The only way to use full auto parts in an AK is to modify the receiver (drill the hole) and if you do that it is considered a full-auto gun even if you never had any auto parts. If just owning the parts that don't fit the receiver is a crime than everyone who has ever built a gun from foreign parts is guilty. Example: I bought a Bulgarian Krinkov parts set and installed it on an American receiver and put in American fire control parts to keep my parts count under the ten part max. (fake silencer welded on for legal barrel length) Even if I had thrown away the leftover parts I would have ,at least briefly, owned a receiver and a full set of full-auto parts. And this example is true of every post-ban Krinkov ever built because all kits come with full-auto parts. I am also the proud owner of a hacksaw and a shotgun. Does that make me guilty of owning a sawed-off shotgun? After all, I do have the gun, the tools, and the knowledge of how to properly use a hacksaw.

[SMIFF762]

Originally posted by Lamron
It is illegal to own CONVERSION parts and the gun they go in at the same time. Full-auto parts are not conversion parts because they will not fit in a semi-auto gun and make it full auto. The AR15 lightening link is a conversion part because it drops in the unaltered receiver. The only way to use full auto parts in an AK is to modify the receiver (drill the hole) and if you do that it is considered a full-auto gun even if you never had any auto parts. If just owning the parts that don't fit the receiver is a crime than everyone who has ever built a gun from foreign parts is guilty. Example: I bought a Bulgarian Krinkov parts set and installed it on an American receiver and put in American fire control parts to keep my parts count under the ten part max. (fake silencer welded on for legal barrel length) Even if I had thrown away the leftover parts I would have ,at least briefly, owned a receiver and a full set of full-auto parts. And this example is true of every post-ban Krinkov ever built because all kits come with full-auto parts. I am also the proud owner of a hacksaw and a shotgun. Does that make me guilty of owning a sawed-off shotgun? After all, I do have the gun, the tools, and the knowledge of how to properly use a hacksaw.

That's what I'm say'in. Pretty soon, if you own a catalog with full auto parts for sale...and enough money in the bank to make a purchase from said catalog...you'll be asking for a visit from the guys in black with tac. vests, Mp5s & ski masks. Before you know it the "gov'ment" will be placing ads in gun magazines trying to bait the unwary into purchaing items they've deemed "illlegal"......oh wait, they've already done that.

What's next? The ATF forcing you on a train bound for a "work camp" because you don't want to give up a hobby? I must say this whole ATF-Homeland Defense-thing with the new powers it gives them (or at least other numerous government agencies)...especially with as much as the government tries to downplay and rationalize it...makes me very uneasy.

Has anyone really paid any attention to what the governmant is now "Legally" capable of doing now that they've used the recent attack as a means to thier end? They're no different than those damn companies that have probably made millions from the sale of of silly & overpriced patriotic paraphinalia....everyone wants a piece of the newly baked pie. If the terrorists actually understood the effect their attack would've had on the government and economy as a whole, they last thing they would've wanted to do would've been what they did.

I spent enough time in the military to know that us guys (at least in the combat arms), while at work, don't question the orders we're giving almost regardless of the order. There's practically no such thing as an "unlawful" one. I'm sure the guys at the ATF, FBI are no different. I know the guys in the NSA, & CIA aren't. Problem is, the cheese dicks at the top, just like in the military, are power-crazed ego-maniacs with one thing in mind...their own agenda. :soapbox:

I apologize for getting off of this thread's subject...I just started to get a little "heated". It happens sometimes...I'll try harder to control it next time.

[bigbro]

DirtyBob,

There are several things to think about here. First of all you arent anonymous. Your IP has been recorded and they can go to your ISP to find out who you are.

If you must have full auto, go the legal route if your state allows it or move to a state that does. Full auto is alot of fun when legal. The fun factor is the only thing that I find practical.
If its for SHTF situations, if you know your tactics and are a decent shot, then you will be able to acquire a F/A when and if the time ever comes, but I decent accurate semi will do you alot more good. Don't think semi only is bad, it isnt.

We should all be able to own full auto, but that isnt reality. In SHTF situations, a semi is trully much better. If you've ever fired full auto you'd understand why. For ambushes, riots etc. your best bet (and legal) would be a semi-auto hi-cap 12 gauge . It's more controllable and alot more firepower for short distance work.


Save for full auto if you can have it, if not dont even think about it. ATF is eager to prosecute and they are the ones that interpret the law. It's also easy to plant evidence so dont invite trouble.

[SMIFF762]

Originally posted by bigbro
DirtyBob,

There are several things to think about here. First of all you arent anonymous. Your IP has been recorded and they can go to your ISP to find out who you are.

If you must have full auto, go the legal route if your state allows it or move to a state that does. Full auto is alot of fun when legal. The fun factor is the only thing that I find practical.
If its for SHTF situations, if you know your tactics and are a decent shot, then you will be able to acquire a F/A when and if the time ever comes, but I decent accurate semi will do you alot more good. Don't think semi only is bad, it isnt.

We should all be able to own full auto, but that isnt reality. In SHTF situations, a semi is trully much better. If you've ever fired full auto you'd understand why. For ambushes, riots etc. your best bet (and legal) would be a semi-auto hi-cap 12 gauge . It's more controllable and alot more firepower for short distance work.


Save for full auto if you can have it, if not dont even think about it. ATF is eager to prosecute and they are the ones that interpret the law. It's also easy to plant evidence so dont invite trouble.

Believe me man, I've fired more diferent types of "F/A" weapons while in the Army than I care to describe..so much so that it sometimes makes me sick. Where you got the idea I had no experience with fully automatic weapons I have no idea. I thought my afformentioned time in the military would've tipped you off.

As far as me thinking I'm anonymous...what gave you that idea? As far as my IP address being recorded..I don't give a shit. If they want me, they WILL have to in fact fabricate a situation anyway. I've done nothing wrong. If they're willing to go that far...just because my views differ from their's, then all of us have a big problem.

I think maybe you responded to the wrong post...either that or you didn't read mine very carefully. I don't need anyone telling me whether or not semi-auto is good or bad. Both F/A & S/A have their respective tactical purposes in combat.

The ambushes & riots you spoke of....where does legality come in here? Obviously when you're the one attemping to control a riot, or conduct an ambush, you are the military or you're the cops, Then gun laws don't apply to you then do they...you're talking apples & oranges here bud. Riots, being non-combat in nature, of couse wouldn't required the use of fully automatic weapons. In fact, as of the previous 30 years or so (in the US anyway) nobody is discharging firearms of any kind unless they're firing "less than lethel" rounds or OC. Ambushes?...Having taken part in a few in the past I can tell you full automatic weapons are excactly what you want in your squad/team for that purpose. Maximum firepower on the objective is the idea here. No long, drawn out single shot sniper crap. So unless you're talking about company or possibly battalion level ambushes, I don't know what your talking about. If YOU had done any time in the military...YOU would've known that already.

I'm fully aware what the federal law is regarding the possesion and/or purchase of full automatic weapons. I'm also fully aware of my state's law in this matter. None of this was the point of my post. The whole idea was that I'm discontented with the laws surrounding purchase and possesion of class III weapons & parts. I'm not worried about getting my hands on one when and if "the time comes", whatever that means. My thing was that I was whining about the fact that firing fully automatic is a lot of fun...harmless fun...but that as a hobby (unless your very wealthy) is way too expensive or outright illegal...problem is that ever since I ETS'd I haven't had the opportunity to do that. I miss it a little.

As you might have seen, there was a little picture of the smiley face guy on a soap box spouting off at the end of my post. That means all I was trying to do was spout off or vent a little.

[cannoneer]

I've followed your thread from the start and no comment until now. My friends and relatives in the U.K. and Australia and particularly in Canada have been stripped of their rights to be men(my biased opinion). I have great feeling for the American right to keep and bear arms. Preserve our 2nd amendment. At least in the U.S.A. we can still own fully automatic arms. I suspect that almost everyone that owns class3 has them because they are toys. Nothing but toys. Mine are toys. I play with them and have a helluva time. And in NO WAY am I about to overthrow any government anywhere or break any of the laws. Since I believe that this is the typical American attitude just exactly what is the problem? I can't remember you mentioning takeing over the country.

[ellisr7.62]

I think the Federal government has enough on their hands right now to worry about Conspiracy to produce Class III stuff. No one is in jail talking about this stuff. I wonder why anyone logs on to this pathetic sub-forum, everyone on it seems to fear giving out info. I understand E-Mail is not secure; but get a grip; you didn't explain the tech procedures and then sell him the parts, that's his problem. If your not aiding anyone in a physical or retail way with the production of Class III stuff;- you are safe. Personally I don't wish to get involved with giving out that kind of info; it's my choice.
Ask any of the wholesalers who sell the parts kits, and they will say "we can sell them all day long and generally don't provide a retail record of sales unless the ATF subpeona's us for records". Having said that, they will also tell you not to go drilling holes in your weapon and advise you of NFA compliance regs- Why do we have this forum? Rhetorical or not; few of us can afford the luxury of the tax stamp