Winchester "White Box" Confusion

[HDR]

This has been making American shooters nuts for a number of years now... particularly in the immediate aftermath of 11 September 2001 when there was a major run on 5.56mm ammunition. Winchester's "generic" or "budget" USA, or "white box," brand of ammunition actually has two different 55-grain FMJ rounds, and one has to look closely at the "small print" to distinguish the difference.

For openers, in addition to the Federal Cartridge-operated Lake City plant, Winchester is also a primary supplier of M193 to the U.S. military. That particular X223R1 round is commercially available in the white USA box produced encoded "Q3131." What few realize is that Israeli Military Industries (IMI), the sole supplier of ammo to the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), also supply their M193 as a subcontractor for Winchester, and is often made available in the USA white boxes marked "Q3131A." By most reports, qualitatively, it is the same round and performs virtually the same as the home-grown variant.

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-556v223.html

[cowdawg]

Interesting and confusing.
I grabbed one of my boxes it says "USA223R1VP"
On the bottom is says " CT534"
"E126133" and K7302"

[PBR]

Thanks for the info Top !

[bgummer]

I have boxes of both, the U.S. made ammo typically has some sort of spacer material to separate the cartridges, while my "made in Israel" ammo is packed loose in a smaller box. Don't notice the difference when I shoot it.

[UGACherokee]

I've shot a lot of the Q3131A Izzy ammo with good results.

When I had to send my M15A2 upper back to Armalite shortly after purchasing it for a minor QC deal, they said that lots of folks experienced problems with the USA Q3131.

Armalite has a tech bulletin posted on it's website on the issue:

http://www.armalite.com/library/techBulletins/tb6.htm

That's good enough for me to avoid it.

(Though if the Q3131 was getting a bad rep, perhaps WC has addressed the issue by now.)

[rick314]

I bought a case of one of those............
Bastards would jam every other round. I tried to give it to my bro and it did the same thing in his.
I called Bushmaster and asked why my rifle was starting to go sideways.
First question they asked and interupted me to ask was..." Are you using the Wn white box ammo?"
I answered yes
they said stop
Problem gone
I can`t trust em anymore. Just my own prejudge

[Ned Flanders]

Is this the white box Winchester that Wal-Mart sells in 40 and 50 round "value" boxes? I have had 100% good results with the Wally World stuff.

[akjunkie]

http://www.ammo-oracle.com

the Israeli Q3131A is suppose to be alittle Hotter than the american Q3131. i shot 2000rds thru my carbine... nothing but good results.

stay away from Olympic.. their rifle ammo is 110% junk.

[Disgruntled Computer Tech]

We took my friend's AR out to the range a few weeks ago, and he was shooting some white box winchester ammo. He was having feed problems with this ammo, and when the shells would jam up, the bullet would get pushed down into the casing. Needless to say, after this happened a few times, he stopped using it. It was the funny looking hollow point. I also need to add that I outshot him with my open sighted 60+ year old Mosin Nagant 91/30. ;) :p

[akjunkie]

hmm, sounds like stove-piping... need alittle more oil on his bolt assy. or maybe a proper cleaning.

[HDR]

I have a Vepr II in 5,56 and an AR...

Between the two of them, they eat anything I find.. :p


BTW-
Just for humor:
Althogh the AR eats it, the Vepr does not like Barnaul...

[UGACherokee]

Originally posted by HDR
BTW-
Just for humor:
Althogh the AR eats it, the Vepr does not like Barnaul...

So much for the Theory of Fussy ARs. ;)

When I ran Wolf .223 through the Armalite and the world didn't stop turning, and the sky didn't fall, I started to get suspicious.

[RJ Shooter]

:rotflmao:

[HDR]

Barnaul jammed my AK..

I have 3-4 boxes left, just in case some one needs proof... :eek:

IMO, its a light load.

[AJ Dual]

Originally posted by cowdawg
Interesting and confusing.
I grabbed one of my boxes it says "USA223R1VP"
On the bottom is says " CT534"
"E126133" and K7302"

Yeah, my 40 round loose "value pack" from wallyworld says this too. Is this even the stuff they're talking about?

Worked fine in a rapid-fire AR match at 50 yards on chicken plates and a running deer target with a paper plate over the vitals. One mag, fast as you like while the deer makes two runs across the firing line.

Only strange thing I noticed was that my fingers were gold with brass dust after loading fresh rounds from one box.

[HDR]

Speaking of wally world's 40 packs, those 45gr JHP at 3600 fps are fun also.

AR likes and Vepr likes...

[Elduce]

Originally posted by UGACherokee
So much for the Theory of Fussy ARs. ;)

When I ran Wolf .223 through the Armalite and the world didn't stop turning, and the sky didn't fall, I started to get suspicious.

How funny! Just about every time I start to load up a mag of the Wolf. I get funny stares, and then lectures about laquer build up, and how the Wolf will ruin my AR's. Never had a problem with Wolf. I use it for all of my plinking. I will use Winchester soft points for hunting applications. I do remember that the hollow points gave me some FTF problems. I don't buy it anymore.

[UGACherokee]

Originally posted by Elduce
Just about every time I start to load up a mag of the Wolf. I get funny stares, and then lectures about laquer build up, and how the Wolf will ruin my AR's.

Damn. . .unsolicited horseshit advice, and at the range, no less. ;)

(They ought to levy a tax on that stuff.)

[Mark Ducati]

I just bought a case of Q3131A from Ammoman.com $199 and another case of Q3131A from wholesalehunter.com $165...


Q3131A is rumored to be loaded a little hotter than the Q3131 here in the states... so far, all mine goes bang reliably. All of my Q3131A is stamped '02 production... about 2-3 years ago, Q3131A got a bad rap, the problem was that the Izzies were using powder form the bottom of the barrel... some rounds were way hot, and others weren't hot enough... crap either way... like I said, this was about 2-3 years ago... current production stuff is okay :rockin:

Sealed ammo, both the bullet and primer... this is my SHTF ammo that I keep locked away in ammo cans.

M.

[Mark Ducati]

Hi Folks,

Just broke into my 2nd case of Winchest Q3131A... head stamp '02 production.

Shot it through my DPMS M4 and my Bushy AK Shorty.... no probs, fed reliably.

[MrFubar]

Watch out for that yid ammo. Its ammo that failed the quality test for use by the israeli army. They try and package it like its good quality american ammo but its real crap ammo and dirty to.

[Noah Zark]

Originally posted by MrFubar
Watch out for that yid ammo. Its ammo that failed the quality test for use by the israeli army. They try and package it like its good quality american ammo but its real crap ammo and dirty to.

Source link, please?

Thanks,

Noah

[Bret]

Originally posted by UGACherokee
I've shot a lot of the Q3131A Izzy ammo with good results.

When I had to send my M15A2 upper back to Armalite shortly after purchasing it for a minor QC deal, they said that lots of folks experienced problems with the USA Q3131.

Armalite has a tech bulletin posted on it's website on the issue:

http://www.armalite.com/library/techBulletins/tb6.htm

That's good enough for me to avoid it.

(Though if the Q3131 was getting a bad rep, perhaps WC has addressed the issue by now.)

Many gun manufacturers are quick to blame the ammunition because it's an easy out. I think that it is incumbent on them to specify how the ammunition is out of specification. The Winchester white box is probably the most common 223 sold, so just because they get the most complaints from people that happen to be using it doesn't mean that the ammunition is necessarily to blame. Merely blaming the ammunition without determining the specific cause of the problem is not scientific at all. If there is so much out there that is causing trouble, then they should be able to get samples and perform tests. They can measure it dimensionally, test pressures, check velocities, etc.. Then they can say with definite authority that the ammunition is to blame. It could be that the rifles are out of specification in some regard and the problem is only evident with certain ammunition.

I've used IMI M193 spec. ammo and Winchester white box without any problems in my AR15's, Galil, Professional Ordnance pistol, and Vepr II. When I get home I'll check what I have to see if any of it has Q3131 on the package.

[Bret]

I have 2,200 rounds of the Q3131 stuff and only about 60 rounds of the Q3131A stuff. The Q3131 is older.

[Bret]

Here are some poll results that I took the liberty to borrow from another AR15 board:

1) 209 responses (94% / 4% / 2%) Federal/LC XM193
2) 138 responses (92% / 6% / 2%) Winchester .223CAL
3) 32 responses (97% / 0% / 3%) PMC
4) 177 responses (94% / 3% / 3%) Winchester Q3131A / IMI M193
5) 52 responses (96% / 0% / 4%) Wolf (Polymer Coating)
6) 28 responses (89% / 7% / 4%) Barnaul
7) 49 responses (90% / 2% / 8%) Federal .223CAL
8) 41 responses (85% / 5% / 10%) PMP (Soth African)
9) 20 responses (80% / 10% / 10%) Igman/Hotshot
10) 115 responses (77% / 10% / 13%) Sellier & Bellot
11) 48 responses (77% / 10% / 12%) Remington/UMC
12) 42 responses (67% / 19% / 14%) Silver Bear
13) 16 responses (62% / 19% / 19%) Santa Barbara SS109
14) 187 responses (67% / 6% / 26%) Wolf (Lacquer coating)
15) 14 responses (29% / 14% / 57%) Maine Cartridge Co.
16) 50 responses (26% / 4% / 70%) Olympic

The first % represents people that have had no problems, the next % represents minor problems, and the final % represents major problems. It is ranked by least major problems. As you can see, both the US made (2) and the Israeli made (4) Winchester white box are at the top of the heap as far as actual real world results go. Note also that the Winchester White Box (when you total 2 & 4) is the most used.