Which .308?

[mseanmc]

Perhaps some of you can shed some light on this topic for me. I want to get a "battle rifle" chambered in .308. I have looked at all of the usual suspects:

DSA FAL
Springfield M1A
H&K G3 replicas
CETME

For those with experience with these rifles, how does the VEPR II .308 compare? I know that there can be a wide disparity in the cost of these rifles, but that is not my main concern (I have an uncle with a FFL, so I buy wholesale). I have the VEPR II in .223, and love it, but I want some qualified opinions on which of these rifles you would choose for general shooting and as a personal homeland defense rifle.

Thanks for your replies.


VEPR II .223
Springfield Armory XD 40 & 9
Colt Trooper III .357
Remington 870
Remington M597
WHAT I HAVE IN MY TOYBOX::D :D

[Skibane]

The bad:

1. The mags are only 10-rounders, and are relatively expensive and scarce.

2. Few folks have reported better than so-so accuracy with them.

The good:

1. They can be converted to accept M-14 or Galil mags.

2. At under $500 for a rifle built with all-new parts and a great finish, the quality is hard to beat.

[Thufer]

I have a Vepr II .308 and my girl friend has DSA SA58(FAL).

My Vepr has close to 1000rds shot through it and in a 5rd group I get about 1"-1.5" using Radway Green. When I fiirst got it, it shot 4"-6" groups, after 300rds it got about 3"-4" groups, 4 rounds about a inch from each other and one round about 2" away from the rest.

What I found out was that the feed lip was a little rough and was sheering the bullets, the first round would load at a slower speed then the rest causing it to hit a different spot then the rest. By loading 6rds, firing one into the back stop and the rest at the target, I have gotten under 1" groups at 100yrds. Since then I have polished which has helped a lot.

Compared to my gril friends SA58. The Vepr feels more bulky, recoils a lot more(no blast deflector) and isn't as accurate. But it is more simplistic, easier to clean(chrom bore) and costs less then half as much. Also in my opinion the Vepr has a better scope mounting system.

The SA58 is a better rifle, but the Vepr is a better value.

[Deer Sniper]

I bought the CAI G3. I have only put about 70 rnds thru it but so far I'm happy with it. I have'nt adjusted the sights yet(shoots a little low @ 100 yds) but I hit a steel gong cut out like an IDPA target 13/16 times at 300 yards last time out. You can get alloy mags from CTD for $2.97 each. Check my review in the mag forum.

[mseanmc]

for the replies so far. Keep 'em coming!

[Mysterious]

G-3.

I have the VEPR .308 and the mags (capacity, cost and availability) are the major deal breaker. The VEPR is a NICE piece, but it's NOT a "real" MBR by any stretch of the imagination. It's primarily a "hunting" rifle/trophy gun.

The G-3 is battle proven, (mine) functions flawlessly, is highly accurate and there are even 30 round magazines available for it. I have many friends that are current and former Special Forces and the vast majority of them prefer the G-3 over everything you've listed - including the Garand.

My two pennies worth... ;)

[BroncoMafia]

regardless of any qualities the VEPR .308 has (I have never seen one, but own several other VEPR2s) mag availability is a major issue.
Excellent 20 round G3 and FAL mags are available all day long for $6 each.
There are no native 20 round VEPR mags.

I suggest comparing (personally) the FAL and G3 clones.
When I did this, I found the balance and ergonomics of the FAL were far superior to the G3s (personal taste).

Fine examples of either platform can be had in the 5-600 dollar range.

Stay away from Century, they are the cheapest and worst of either breed.

FALs built on STG kits can be exceptional, and Imbel gear logo recievers are desireable.

Again, I encourage you to handle both rifles and decide based on that.

Cetmes are budget G3 variants.

[Deer Sniper]

Yeah the ergonomics of my G3 were a little disapointing. I have good size hands and with my hand in a firing position it is hard to reach the safety, and impossible to reach the mag release.

[Skibane]

Originally posted by Mysterious
The VEPR is a NICE piece, but it's NOT a "real" MBR by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh, I dunno, I can stretch my imagination pretty far...IIRC, Kalishnikovs have been involved in a scirmish or two over the past half-century...

[Mysterious]

Originally posted by Skibane
Oh, I dunno, I can stretch my imagination pretty far...IIRC, Kalishnikovs have been involved in a scirmish or two over the past half-century...

Understood Ski, but the deliberate ommission of high capacity mags pretty much seals the deal. (i.e. Is a Mosin-Nagant a battle rifle? Well... kinda sorta then...)

So "COULD WE?" - yes.

Would we really "WANT TO" if a better suited alternative is available? Probably not. ;)

[mseanmc]

Hey All,

Again thanks for the replies. It's great to get some debate going on these rifles from those with some experience. Keep it coming!

[BroncoMafia]

you can even get 30 round mags for the FAL (DSA has them NIB for $65 or VGC uded for $45)
DSA Mags Link (http://www.dsarms.com/catalog-list.cfm?Category=08&storeid=1)

Don't think you can get 30 rd mags for the HK.
I have a couple of the 30s, but 308 is a heavy round, I don't think people understand the difference in weight beteewn Assault rifle ammo and MBR ammo.
A full 20 round mag of 308 feels to me like it weighs more than a full 30 of 5.45.

Still, it's something to think about.
Ergonomics, mag availability, durability, accuracy, optics options, weight, these are all things I would look at.

I'll let others explore them, I got work to do :p

[fraglord]

I got a VEPR .308 because I wanted a quality .308 autoloader and there's no frickin' way I'm spending $1200 for a DSA FAL. The 10 round mags don't bother me because I can use 30 round mags in my VEPR K 7.62x39. To me, a .308 is a "take your time with every shot" kind of rifle, not a rapid fire hose like a 7.62x39.

I find the recoil to be low, due to the excellent ergonomics of the thumbhole stock. Normally I hate these thumbholes, but this one fits me perfectly. The only other .308 I have fired is my buddy's Steyr bolt action and that thing weighs about 10 lbs and still kicks like a mule!

[BroncoMafia]

Just so everyone knows, there are a lot of great FALs that are not made by DSA and cost less than $700.
they all use cheap high cap mags.

Bronco

[mseanmc]

Who are the makers? Do they have the same build quality for the receiver that DSA has?

Are they using Imbel part kits, dissected military rifles, or what?

So many rifles, so many questions...

Thanks for the replies!

[BroncoMafia]

Go to the forums on the FalFiles FalFiles.com (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/)
check out the reviews section.
You will find a lot of small to medium sized shops that are building quality FALs with strong attention to detail and quality US parts for half of what DSA charges.
You will also find people selling quality rifles in the marketplace section that are real values.

You will also find some smiths that are building custom rifles that eclipse the DSA product.

US made parts?
FSE hammer, trigger, sear is regarded as the best (equal to or better than DSA).

High quality US made gas pistons and charging handles are available.

Recievers? Imbel, DSA, Coonan. All good. Retail price $200 - $235.
(coonan and DSA have benefit of being a US made part. Imbel is a factory FN manufacturer).

Penguin furniture is condiered to be outstanding as 3 more US made parts (buttstock, handguard, and pistol grip).

Like I said in a previous post, there are many good parts kits still available, but prices have gone up recently because of some BATF activity seizing kits that they suddenly decided were incorrectly demilitarized.

Brand new imprted chrome lined military barrels are available, but many parts kits are in such great condition that buying new parts is an unnecessary expense.

Talk with your builder about their recomendation for the highest quality components available and what trade-offs might make sense for you.

[Mysterious]

Originally posted by BroncoMafia
Don't think you can get 30 rd mags for the HK.



Actually you can. Unfortunately, I've lost the web site address BUT...

Send an e-mail to

Shankton53@aol.com

... and ask for his website addy. The owner's name is Tony and he is EXCELLENT! (In thought, word, deed, price and product!)

I got several G-3 30 rounders and some 50's for the SAR-3. ALL strictly FIRST RATE!

:happydanc :happydanc :happydanc :happydanc

[runyon]

What are you looking for ? A military copy, or just something fun to shoot ?

Look at what mags cost and how available they are for each rifle.

Go to gun shows, pick up and shoulder each model rifle you list.
You will narrow down your list quickly, once you handle and shoulder each model.

The H&K, has a great following, it is just like shooting a bolt action rifle as far as recoil goes, it is recoil operated, no gas operation recoil reduction. CETME, has a flip up rear sight instead of a turret H&K rear sight, it is the original H&K rifle, they bought the design from Spain, who had fleeing WW II German engineers design it for them.

FAL, M1A are a blast to shoot, both are very accurate.

Vepr II in .223 is great to shoot, do not know about .308 Vepr.

[inspireart]

My VEPR has had the Kreb's Galil mag conversion. The gun is accurate even with surplus ammo. Did not start out that way but that is a Kreb's story. Mark had a little to much pressure on the bottom of the bolt but he made it right. Good guy!!
12 roung Galil mags are under 30 dollars. I have two Galil 25 rounders but they were pricey. The gun hardley recoils compared to my friends DSA SA-58.
Accuarcy has improved to 1.5 MOA at 100 yds with FMN surplus ammo! This is right in there with the FAL's. Accuracy with handloads does not to seem to change however. I like the simplicity and reliability of this overgrown AK. I do have a scope on this gun.http://members.aol.com/inspireart/beaut.jpg

[skx762]

I know, I know, this is a VEPR Forum, but I lurk here to get twice the info on Russian AKs. My stock Saiga in .308 Is a good shooter. Shot best using Winchester 150 gr ammo, 2" at 100 yds open sights from the bench. It is a brand new AK, no inches/metric stuff to worry about, no grinding bolts, and 8-10 rounds is plenty for my needs.

I guess that is what it boils down to, what are you going to use it for and do you want a new rifle or a like new rifle. How much do you want to be involved with the building and maintenance of your rifle.

A VEPR (or Saiga) with 12s and 25s should do anything you need to do with a .308, shooting 5 or 6 30 rd mags is a heck of a lot cheaper in 7.62X39 or 5.56mm.

I will be butting out now, just had to side with the Russian bunch.