newbie question?

[flaredneck269]

I just bought a cz52 and heard
that you can change the barrel
with a 9x18? If you can does it
work right or will it damage the
the gun in any way?

:newbie:

[JA]

http://makarov.com/cart/vitemcz52.htm
Has 9x19mm barrels for CZ-52 pistols.

[weevil]

I haven't got one for my CZs, but have them for two of my Tokarevs. The Chinese one worked great, but I had trouble with the extractor, on the Polish one. The rim on 9mm is slightly thicker, and would cause feed problems, with some brands of ammo.
A little bit of filing on the extractor solved this, and now it works great. I haven't had any problems at all, since doing this.

I like having two different caliber barrels, its like having two guns, in one.

[Clark]

Someone else with my guns has shot a 9mm round through a CZ52 7.62x25mm barrel and a 7.62x25 round through a 9mm barrel. The CZ52 did not blow up, but jammed in both cases.


My favorite is the Tokarev with 9mm barrel reamed out to 9x23mm and 158 gr handloads seated at 1.36". That cartridge is superior to either the 9x19mm Luger OR the 7.62x25mm Tokarev [30 Mauser].

[weevil]

Originally posted by Clark
Someone else with my guns has shot a 9mm round through a CZ52 7.62x25mm barrel and a 7.62x25 round through a 9mm barrel. The CZ52 did not blow up, but jammed in both cases.


How do you shoot a 9mm bullet through a 7.62mm barrel. It must have been a pretty "soft" bullet.

I don't know why, but the term "bullshit" leaps to mind.

[Clark]

The 9mm was gunshow 10 cent reloads [not too hot] with 124 gr FMJ and mixed brass.

The jacket was left behind in the chamber of the 7.62x25mm barrel and a hole appeared in the target!

I don't blame you for calling BS.
I was suprised myself.

This may be what happens every time, or may never happen again.
I am not going to try it again with a CZ52 to find out.
Maybe with a Tokarev I would.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=400835

[weevil]

A 9x19mm cartridge won't chamber in a 7.62x25mm barrel, unless of course you ream out the barrel. Why anyone would do that I'm not sure, but I'll conceed its possible to make it fit in the chamber.

What I find impossible to believe is that a 9mm cartridge could generate enough power to push the core of bullet through a 7.62mm barrel.

Sorry, but a picture of an empty bullet jacket, doesn't convince me.

[Clark]

http://www.ldaint.org/technotes5.htm
If the shear strength of lead is 250 psi and the .308 cylinder is sheared out of the bullet:

Area of lead sheared = C x L = pi x diameter x L = 3.14 x .308" x .6" = .58 sq. in

F = Shear Force / area or rear of bullet = 250 psi / .58 sq. in = 431 pounds

chamber Pressure required = F/ A = 431 pounds x pi x r squared =
431 pounds / 3.14 x [.308/2]~2 = 5790 psi

My Quikload program plots pressure vs 9 mm bullet position, and the peak in pressure is about 1" of bullet travel at 30 kpsi and falls to 5 kpsi when the bullet exits at 5"


ok, it says 400 psi under some circumstances, which would put the chamber pressure required up to nearly 10 kpsi.

[weevil]

I've pushed a piece of lead through barrels, to determine bore size, so I know its possible with a lead bullet. But your picture shows a bullet with a full metal jacket, not a lead bullet, or even a hollow point. This means the soft lead core would have to push through the harder jacketing metal.

Perhaps impossible was a bit harsh, stranger things have happened.

What makes your statementts hard to believe, is that anyone would do something so bizarre. Testing the failing point of a gun is one thing, but this is totally pointless.

You also said you fired a 9mm bullet through a 7.62 mm barrel, and vice-versa. We both know this is impossible, in a normal CZ-52, but nowhere in your post is there any mention of the modifications done to accomplish this feat. You did mention reaming a Tokarev barrel to shoot 9mm Largo, but the implication is your " friend" was firing 9mm Luger out of a "standard" CZ-52, which is pure "bullshit".

Your claims might be easier to swallow, if you provided more details, and didn't make statements that are clearly false.

[Clark]

This was fired by a close relative of mine who has been shooting for 35 years, mostly black powder.

He seemed to have trouble with my weird looking CZ52 and did not catch on to the idea that there are two possible barrels in it.

I belive I saw the hole in the target from the .308 plug shot out of the 124 gr 9mm bullet.

I really don't know if it can be done every time, or if it is a fluke, and can't be reproduced.

You are right, it is pointless, but also kind of interesting. I would have thought the gun would blow up.

I don't know how soft the lead is inside of the bullets.
I have about 500 rounds more of the stuff, and I could hit it with a hammer and see how fast it flattens compared to a hard case 158 gr and a soft 158 gr.


That occured at an indoor range, the now defunct WSI in Bellevue WA.

--------------------------------

The same relative did 7.62x25mm through a 9mm barrel outdoors at the Snoqualimie National Forest 30 miles East of Seattle. It kept jamming. I finally figured out the problem.

[weevil]

Originally posted by weevil

You also said you fired a 9mm bullet through a 7.62 mm barrel, and vice-versa. We both know this is impossible, in a normal CZ-52, but nowhere in your post is there any mention of the modifications done to accomplish this feat. You did mention reaming a Tokarev barrel to shoot 9mm Largo, but the implication is your " friend" was firing 9mm Luger out of a "standard" CZ-52, which is pure "bullshit".



A 9x19mm cartridge will not not fit in the chamber of a 7.62mm barrel, the end of the case sticks out. The slide will not close, and a Cz-52 will not fire out of battery.

Either you modified the barrels, or you're a liar.

[Rew]

is simple Weevil, he is a lier, a 9mm won't chamber in a 7.62x25 chamber.

[Clark]

I just tried to put a handful of 9x19mm Luger ammo mixed brass 1.124" OAL 124 gr. FMJ RN into some 7.62x25mm chambers.

1) a CZ52 barrel, the Tokarev ammo drops in .028" deeper than the 9 mm ammo, measuring from the base of the case to the breech of the barrel.
2) 1953 CZ52 Phosphate finish with Czech barrel that the serial number does not match the slide and frame, 9 mm ammo eased almost all the way in releasing the slide slowly. A couple ounces thumb force on the back of the slide caused the action to close. Removing chambered 9 mm was more difficult, and I put the slide in a wooden vice and shoved on the handle and the round ejected.
3) Type 54 Tokarev Norinco, action would not close by 1/8", stuck round hard to dislodge. Used the vice. Tried three times, with no change.
4) Polish Tokarev, dropped the slide and a 9 mm round chambered. Had to use the vice to get it out.
5) C96 Mauser, 9 mm round chambered and extracted easily.
5) 9 mm round in 7.62 Tokarev Lee die without decapping pin, took 20 pounds of force on end of Rockchucker handle. The bullet was distorted with a small ring ahead of the mouth.


What does it all mean?
9mm ammo went into a CZ52 easily, but was hard to get out.

[Noah Zark]

IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED TO CHAMBER AMMUNITION IN A WEAPON FOR WHICH IT IS NOT DESIGNED.

This reminds me of a local silhouette enthusiast that had purchased a Chinese Tokarev and brought it to me "with a problem." The slide was slightly out of battery and a round was chambered. I successfully dislodged the chambered round to discover that it was a 9x19, and the Tok was 7.62x25. The owner, very experienced with rifles and equally inexperienced with handguns had tried to fire the pistol but the hammer would not fall. He had previously fired the Tok with 7.62x25 ammo. I told him that problem was the wrong ammo and he was lucky. He countered by saying that "he read somewhere" that Chinese Toks could fire 9x19, too. I explained that they indeed could with the properly chambered barrel fitted, but not in the 7.62x25 barrel, and taking up a digital caliper, showed him the dimensional differences of the two bullet diameters. To prove the point, I attempted to carefully chamber the 9x19 round in one of my CZ52s, and the slide would not go into battery. My other CZ52 wears a 9x19 barrel, the chamber of which is so marked, and the 9x19 round chambered as it should have.


IMO, that your close relative managed to chamber a 9x19 in a 7.62 hangun was an exception and not the rule. Your close relative is very fortunate, and anyone firing any weapon is advised to be certain of the ammunition for which it is chambered.

Further, when at the rage, it is recommended that only one weapon be fired at a time, and that any ammunition for a given weapon be collected and stored away before bringing out another weapon and its respective ammo. This discipline will minimize if not eliminate any mistaken mischamberings. Further, it is recommended that when one is permitting others to fire their weapons, the firearm owners take responsibility for supervising the handling, loading, and firing of those weapons in the hands of others.

Noah

[Noah Zark]

Originally posted by flaredneck269
I just bought a cz52 and heard
that you can change the barrel
with a 9x18? If you can does it
work right or will it damage the
the gun in any way?

:newbie:


To get this thread back on the rails,

Welcome to the forum, and to the CZ52!

Your question asked about the availability of 9x18 barrels. This is the round used in the Makarov and the Hungarian PA 63 and I am not aware of a conversion barrel for the CZ52 for the 9x18.

JA provided the link to Makarov.Com, an excellent site and a tremendous resource to the Mak, CZ52, and PA 63 owners. The link will take you to their Federal Arms 9x19 conversion barrel, the 9x19 being the 9mm Luger / 9mm Parabellum round currently used in a wide variety of handguns and submachine guns. The US M9 Beretta is chambered in 9x19, as is the venerable Browning High Power among others.

If you purchase a 9x19 barrel, I recommend the purchase of a set of Harrington rollers form Makarov.Com as the follers that cam with my Federal Arms 9x19 barrel two years ago were comparatively soft and deformed. The Harrington rollers are of a proper hardness.

Note that the 7.62x25 round's OAL is much longer than that of the 9x19, and you may or may not experinece feed problems. I use handloads with the 124 grain Hornady FMJ-FP so-called "Air Force" bullet over Unique power and seated out a good ways to increase the OAL to about maximum for a Browning High Power magazine. These will fit and function in the BHP and the wider mag of the CZ52, and feed and function very reliably in the CZ.

HTH,

Noah

[Clark]

Noah,
IMO, that your close relative managed to chamber a 9x19 in a 7.62 hangun was an exception and not the rule. Your close relative is very fortunate, and anyone firing any weapon is advised to be certain of the ammunition for which it is chambered.

Did you mean that it shot and the gun survived?
Or are you challanging the data I collected last night for this thread?

[Noah Zark]

I mean that the 9x19 round apparently chambered sufficiently to be fired and your relative was unhurt.

(edited for clarity)

Noah

[HDR]

Originally posted by weevil
I don't know why, but the term "bullshit" leaps to mind.

Ditto.

Plus, who in the hell wants to risk screwing up a decent firearm anyways?

[Clark]

HDR,
I will tell you a joke.
My father, who is an engineer as are most of my male relatives, told it to me when I was a boy.

There was a engineer who seemed to extinguish conversations. Whenever he approached a group of people talking at a party, they group soon dispersed. Then a year later, groups always formed around the guy. An accountant asked him what changed.
The engineer said, "When ever anyone says anything, I say "Fantastic!" and people love me!"
The accountant interrupted, "I don't know, that sounds like Bullshit to me.."
The engineer interrupted, "No, that's what I USED to say."

Then when I got a degree in engineering and got a job, whenever I said anything to my boss, he said, "Fantastic!"
I told him I knew what that meant in engineering language.
At which time the boss gave me a sheet of paper with that and other engineering phrase translations.


In the following 25 years, the joke seems to have been adopted by lawyers, feminists, and cancer survivors.
I am hoping that soon it will trickle down to your group.

[Noah Zark]

Clark:

The origin of that "Fantastic - sounds like BS" joke goes back a ways as a slam of the Dale Carnegie program and its graduates. One of the tenets of DC is to be enthusiastic. One of the early "enthusiasm buzzwords" was "fantastic". Some wag picked up on that, created the "joke" as an insult to DC and DC grads.

And you're right, it gradually mutated to pretty much any profession.


By the way, I don't know if you know HDR or not, being fairly new here. He's a mechanical designer, pretty sharp guy -- I dare say that as an engineer you probably have more in common with him (technically) than you would initially guess.

And since were on the subject, I'm a mechanical engineer, class of '78 and before that a Marine armorer. Nowadays I do custom industrial PLC programming, SQL software development, and once in a while I actually get to fire a weapon.

Noah

[Clark]

Noah,
I I have designed swithching power supplies and worked EMI for 25 years.
Mostly military and medical.
I would typically design a power supply built by a company that would sell it to a company that would put it in a computer, that would sell it to an air frame manufactuor that would sell it to the air force.

I can't learn software syntax or foreign languages or music.
My wife, my cousins, and my son can program in C++, but that part of my brain is not there. I have to have a software engineer help me to get things working.

2003 [I am now 52] has seen more handi man calls for me than engineering consulting calls. I get to use all this amatuer gunsmithing hardware to make building maintenace parts.
Today I installed cieling fans:)

Here is me making an extractor relief for a 45/70 91/30 barrel:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=126137



When I was a little boy and my father was designing guns and took me to see them, I thought the red hydraulic fluid all over the ground was blood from people who were shot with the guns. If I had made it to Viet Nam ~ 15 years later, I could have seen the same guns making real blood.
His only big time production hits were the M107, M110, and M158. Those were in response to RFQs from Rock Island Arsenel. All the non requested gun designs went nowhere fast. The realities of selling gun designs is grim.
And the follow on production contracts went to FMC or Chrysler or some other company, once the army owned the drawings.

Here is an M107:




http://www.landscaper.net/images/175lzdh.jpg

[Noah Zark]

I thought Watervliet made all the tubes for the big stuff?


Noah

[Clark]

Watertown made the barrel and the interuped thread breech block.

My father designed the elevation and recoil mechanisms. My father was the chief engineer of the vehicle designs, and 150 men in his engineering departement did the details. I remember him complaiing about someone desinging gears in a way that was hard to follow. I think my father got the patent for the elevation, and some suspension patents, but I don't know if it was for those artilary or armored personel carriers. I understand the suspension concepts as long as I am listening. We are the limit of my knowledge, but I can ask him.... I know all about the power supply for the milstar program:)

I guess I do know about the hydraulic recoil. I tried to make one for a pistol. I now know how to make a gland with a boring bar. I should try again.