M249
02-16-2001, 03:13 AM
If ATF said your inherited gun wasn't registered..
Posted By: Eric M. Larson <larsone@starpower.net>
Date: 2/15/01 20:16
I am the Eric M. Larson who has been testifying to Congress about errors ATF created in the NFRTR, such as by inadvertently destroying registration/transfer documents, etc. I am writing to ask if anybody out there has PERSONALLY had the experience of (1) inheriting an NFA firearm, (2) applying to have it transferred to him or another heir, (3) having ATF claim, upon receipt of the Form 4 or Form 5, that the firearm isn't registered to the deceased person, or perhaps to anybody else, and that the firearm is contraband so fork it over, (4) you or somebody else finding a valid registration/transfer document, and telling ATF about it, and (5) ATF saying "Oops, we made a mistake, we found out your firearm actually is registered, just send us a copy of the registration/transfer document and we'll OK the transfer."
The foregoing would be something that could be checked out, namely, whether or not ATF has added firearms back into the NFRTR after losing or destroying a registration/transfer document.
Following my latest testimony last spring, the Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Servicel, and General Government Appropriations formally asked ATF a set of questions about errors in the NFRTR. One of the questions was: "For the years 1997-99, how many NFA-governed items for which transfers from decedent were sought by an heir did ATF confiscate because there was no NFRTR record of a valid NFA license?" ATF's response: "We have no knowledge of any instance where ATF confiscated a lawfully registered firearm from a legal heir."
The Subcommittee recognized that ATF did not answer the question, and that's one reason the matter is going to be take up in further detail in upcoming appropriations hearings. I am posting this message to try and contact anybody who has inherited an NFA firearm that ATF first said wasn't registered, and then backed down when confronted with a valid registration/transfer document. Feel free to crosspost this message to whatever other NFA Boards you think may be useful.
Regarding my credentials/legitimacy, my research has been published in _Small Arms Review_, and Dan Shea can vouch for my authenticity, as can James Bardwell, and if either of them aren't good enough, let me know and I'll refer you to others who will vouch for me.
I recognize that belling the ATF cat isn't something everybody might be willing to try, and I would not ever betray confidences from somebody who wanted things kept private---ever. At the same time, unless you (or your attorney, which would also work well) would be willing to tell the Subcommittee what you experienced, under oath, and be able to provide some means of reliably identifying the firearm(s) you're talking about, your experience won't help anybody. I have achieved credibility because I have always been absolutely sure of whatever I've testified about---the Class III world is full of folks who tell plenty of tall tales. Tall tales aren't appropriate here--the truth is appropriate.
If your stuff passes muster with me, I'll be glad to include it in the Testimonial Appendix that I'm preparing to accompany my formal testimony. If y ou want to contact the Subcommittee on your own, you can do that too---and I've listed the address below. I would caution all of you----these folks are quite busy, and it won't help anybody to waste their time. It won't keep me from laying some thick evidence against ATF on the table, either. Just think about what you are saying, and that you are representing a group of people, in what seems to be a rare opportunity to possibly achieve some reforms of the NFRTR.
The problem in my judgement isn't one of gun control or even gun control policy or anything to do with the 2nd Amendment. It has to do with the harsh criminal penalties that attach to defective administrative records, and to defective administrative procedures that have failed to correct those records. Keep a couple of things in mind: (1) according to ATF's records, more than 50,000 NFA firearms registered during the 1968 amnesty have never been transferred after that original registration; this means there's just one piece of paper ATF has which is the lawful record that the firearm is registered; and (2) under the law as currently written and enforced, the Government/ATF doesn't have to prove that a machine gun isn't registered in order to convict you of illegally possessing it. In other words, if through a flood, house fire, tornado, other natural disaster or just plain human error, you lost your Form 4467, and by hook or crook ATF also lost its copy of that Form 4467, if ATF catches you with that machine gun, it will be virtually impossible for you to avoid going to federal prison. To me, these are mighty high stakes, and they are one of the reasons I have been dogging this issue for nearly 6 years; these are mighty high stakes for ATF as well, and it is the reason that ATF has not been answering direct questions that would force true reforms, namely, establishing an amnesty period so people who lawfully own NFA firearms can re-register their firearms and protect themselves against ATF turning them into felons. A side benefit is that an amnesty would remove the "contraband" status that automaticallyh attaches (and never goes away) when a careless ATF employee improperly registers or transfers a firearm, like when a Form 10 gun is transferred to a civilian, or a post-1986 import gets mistakenly OK'd for transfer to a collector. When ATF discovers these "mistakes" that ATF made, it's too bad Charley---ATF will stop by and collect your gun, with no compensation. And there's no way, because of the privacy laws/tax laws, that you ever could check on the history of any NFA firearm that you buy.
This is a long message, but an important one in my view. If you have experienced ATF adding your lawfully owned NFA firearm record back into the NFRTR after losing it, please contact me and/or the Subcommittee. And be sure that you're real---if you're not, you hurt yourself as well as innocent people who would like to continue to own guns they thought were legal when they bought them and ATF approved the transfer(s) to them.
Think before you write, please. This Subcommittee funds ATF's operations---all of them. This Subcommittee has the power to attach a rider to ATF's appropriations (such as it has since the mid-1990s to prohibit ATF from changing the "curio or relic" firearm definition), to prohibit any federal employee from using NFRTR data in any criminal or civil proceeding until such time as an independent panel of outside experts (i.e., not ATF and not Treasury) certifies that the NFRTR is reasonably accurate and complete. It has taken me nearly 6 years of work, along with the courageous assistance of people like Noel Napolilli, Capt. Monty, and others who have experienced injustices or nearly so from ATF, to bring things this far. Think about the importance of the NFRTR being accurate and complete---and please consider doing your part, if you can, to help achieve some true reforms.
Respectfully submitted,
Eric M. Larson
larsone@starpower.net
The Subcommittee's address is:
The Honorable Ernest J. Istook, Jr.
Chairman
Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Service
and General Government
House of Representatives
B-307 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Trying to get the word out, I did'nt know this was going on until tonight.
Posted By: Eric M. Larson <larsone@starpower.net>
Date: 2/15/01 20:16
I am the Eric M. Larson who has been testifying to Congress about errors ATF created in the NFRTR, such as by inadvertently destroying registration/transfer documents, etc. I am writing to ask if anybody out there has PERSONALLY had the experience of (1) inheriting an NFA firearm, (2) applying to have it transferred to him or another heir, (3) having ATF claim, upon receipt of the Form 4 or Form 5, that the firearm isn't registered to the deceased person, or perhaps to anybody else, and that the firearm is contraband so fork it over, (4) you or somebody else finding a valid registration/transfer document, and telling ATF about it, and (5) ATF saying "Oops, we made a mistake, we found out your firearm actually is registered, just send us a copy of the registration/transfer document and we'll OK the transfer."
The foregoing would be something that could be checked out, namely, whether or not ATF has added firearms back into the NFRTR after losing or destroying a registration/transfer document.
Following my latest testimony last spring, the Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Servicel, and General Government Appropriations formally asked ATF a set of questions about errors in the NFRTR. One of the questions was: "For the years 1997-99, how many NFA-governed items for which transfers from decedent were sought by an heir did ATF confiscate because there was no NFRTR record of a valid NFA license?" ATF's response: "We have no knowledge of any instance where ATF confiscated a lawfully registered firearm from a legal heir."
The Subcommittee recognized that ATF did not answer the question, and that's one reason the matter is going to be take up in further detail in upcoming appropriations hearings. I am posting this message to try and contact anybody who has inherited an NFA firearm that ATF first said wasn't registered, and then backed down when confronted with a valid registration/transfer document. Feel free to crosspost this message to whatever other NFA Boards you think may be useful.
Regarding my credentials/legitimacy, my research has been published in _Small Arms Review_, and Dan Shea can vouch for my authenticity, as can James Bardwell, and if either of them aren't good enough, let me know and I'll refer you to others who will vouch for me.
I recognize that belling the ATF cat isn't something everybody might be willing to try, and I would not ever betray confidences from somebody who wanted things kept private---ever. At the same time, unless you (or your attorney, which would also work well) would be willing to tell the Subcommittee what you experienced, under oath, and be able to provide some means of reliably identifying the firearm(s) you're talking about, your experience won't help anybody. I have achieved credibility because I have always been absolutely sure of whatever I've testified about---the Class III world is full of folks who tell plenty of tall tales. Tall tales aren't appropriate here--the truth is appropriate.
If your stuff passes muster with me, I'll be glad to include it in the Testimonial Appendix that I'm preparing to accompany my formal testimony. If y ou want to contact the Subcommittee on your own, you can do that too---and I've listed the address below. I would caution all of you----these folks are quite busy, and it won't help anybody to waste their time. It won't keep me from laying some thick evidence against ATF on the table, either. Just think about what you are saying, and that you are representing a group of people, in what seems to be a rare opportunity to possibly achieve some reforms of the NFRTR.
The problem in my judgement isn't one of gun control or even gun control policy or anything to do with the 2nd Amendment. It has to do with the harsh criminal penalties that attach to defective administrative records, and to defective administrative procedures that have failed to correct those records. Keep a couple of things in mind: (1) according to ATF's records, more than 50,000 NFA firearms registered during the 1968 amnesty have never been transferred after that original registration; this means there's just one piece of paper ATF has which is the lawful record that the firearm is registered; and (2) under the law as currently written and enforced, the Government/ATF doesn't have to prove that a machine gun isn't registered in order to convict you of illegally possessing it. In other words, if through a flood, house fire, tornado, other natural disaster or just plain human error, you lost your Form 4467, and by hook or crook ATF also lost its copy of that Form 4467, if ATF catches you with that machine gun, it will be virtually impossible for you to avoid going to federal prison. To me, these are mighty high stakes, and they are one of the reasons I have been dogging this issue for nearly 6 years; these are mighty high stakes for ATF as well, and it is the reason that ATF has not been answering direct questions that would force true reforms, namely, establishing an amnesty period so people who lawfully own NFA firearms can re-register their firearms and protect themselves against ATF turning them into felons. A side benefit is that an amnesty would remove the "contraband" status that automaticallyh attaches (and never goes away) when a careless ATF employee improperly registers or transfers a firearm, like when a Form 10 gun is transferred to a civilian, or a post-1986 import gets mistakenly OK'd for transfer to a collector. When ATF discovers these "mistakes" that ATF made, it's too bad Charley---ATF will stop by and collect your gun, with no compensation. And there's no way, because of the privacy laws/tax laws, that you ever could check on the history of any NFA firearm that you buy.
This is a long message, but an important one in my view. If you have experienced ATF adding your lawfully owned NFA firearm record back into the NFRTR after losing it, please contact me and/or the Subcommittee. And be sure that you're real---if you're not, you hurt yourself as well as innocent people who would like to continue to own guns they thought were legal when they bought them and ATF approved the transfer(s) to them.
Think before you write, please. This Subcommittee funds ATF's operations---all of them. This Subcommittee has the power to attach a rider to ATF's appropriations (such as it has since the mid-1990s to prohibit ATF from changing the "curio or relic" firearm definition), to prohibit any federal employee from using NFRTR data in any criminal or civil proceeding until such time as an independent panel of outside experts (i.e., not ATF and not Treasury) certifies that the NFRTR is reasonably accurate and complete. It has taken me nearly 6 years of work, along with the courageous assistance of people like Noel Napolilli, Capt. Monty, and others who have experienced injustices or nearly so from ATF, to bring things this far. Think about the importance of the NFRTR being accurate and complete---and please consider doing your part, if you can, to help achieve some true reforms.
Respectfully submitted,
Eric M. Larson
larsone@starpower.net
The Subcommittee's address is:
The Honorable Ernest J. Istook, Jr.
Chairman
Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Service
and General Government
House of Representatives
B-307 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Trying to get the word out, I did'nt know this was going on until tonight.