Question about FA C&R

[bulletslap]

What is the catch with FA weapons that have be designated C&R's and removed from NFA status ? From example H&R Reisings, M3 Subs manufacterd by Guide Lamp prior to 1954. If I get a C&R, can I own one of these without a class III ? Am I just subject to local laws ? I am a Texas Resident.

[mg34ssx]

Whoah, now. There are no full autos removed from NFA status. There are some original guns which have C+R status. In some states, Missouri for instance, you can have C+R machine guns, but not new ( pre '86 ) guns. For example, you can have an original Colt Vickers, but not an Erb side plate Vickers. Texas is a Class III friendly state, so as far as I know, you can have eigher original or "re-manufactured" guns. If you search the site, you should be able to find the process for aquireing one. You will not be able to get a machine gun without going through the Class III process. If you get a C+R licence, you will have to do the same process to get the licence and you will have to keep track of a lot of paperwork besides. If your goal is to avoid paperwork and hassels, you will not be better off getting a C+R license to get one gun. There are people who are better at this stuff than I am, but, right off the top of my head, I think it's easier to just get it the regular way.

[bulletslap]

I was looking at the BATFU's website and saw this:
SEC. IV: National Firearms Act Weapons Classified As Curios Or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44
The Bureau has determined that the following national Firearms Act weapons are curios or relics as defined in 27 CFR 178.11 because of their dates of manufacture. These National Firearms Act weapons, classified as curios or relics, are still subject to all the controls under the National Firearms Act. However, licensed collectors may acquire, hold, or dispose of them as curios or relics subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 and 27 CFR Part 178. They are still "firearms" as defined in the National Firearms Act and 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44
I think this means I must hold a Class III, but I can buy them without the 200 $ Bite ?

[carmandan]

I currently hold a C & R license so I'll try to clear up some of the confusion. A C & R license lets you buy C & R machineguns without going through a class 3 m.g. dealer.
Everything else is the same as a non C & R holder buying a m.g. You still have to pay the $200 transfer tax fee. You still have to go through the paperwork hassle.The only advantage is the gun can be transfer directly to you. Once the paperwork is approved by the A.T.F. the current owner can ship it directly to you.No need to go through a class 3 dealer. This only applies to C & R machine guns. You can also buy other C & R guns direct.The A.T.F. has said that a firearm over 50 years old is a C & R firearm. I don't believe this also applies to machine guns. I believe they have to be declared as C & R by the A.T.F.You have to keep a record of all C & R firearms you buy.
The A.T.F. can request a review of your records once a year. You can request that it be done at their office instead of at your home. I have had C & R license for 3 years and have never been contacted by them. I hope this helps some. By the way machineguns are all NFA weapons C & R or not.
Dan

[clay]

Carmandan, does that mean that a MAC10 that was made in '72 will be considered a C&R machine gun in 2022, just a measley 21 years away? And by 2036, (only 35 years from now), will ALL transferable MG's be considered C&R, as they will all be at least 50 years old?

[carmandan]

Clay,
As I stated in my other post, I don't believe the 50 year rule applies to machine guns. I believe the rule on them is that the A.T.F. has to delcare them C & R on an individual basis.However there are some that are less than 50 years old that are C & R already. The S & W model 76 submachine gun is one example. It 1st came out in the mid 60's but is already on the C & R list. You can go to the A.T.F. website and there is a complete list of all C & R firearms,including m.g.'s.You can also find the rules governing C & R guns and licenses.
Dan

[bulletslap]

Thank you Carmandan. I am contemplating starting the Class III marathon, and I was trying figure out all the angles.

[STERLNIKOV]

Do C&R holders have to obtain a CLEO signature? If not this would be great relief for collectors living in areas controled by police hostile to NFA weapons.

[carmandan]

STERLNIKOV,
Yep, you still have to go throught the normal ATF transfer procedure. That is you still have to be finger printed,still have to get the CLEO sign off, still have to send in pictures of yourself. The only advantage is the transfer,after it is approved by ATF,can be made directly to you.You are cutting out the class 3 middle man.If you did not have a C&R license and you were buying a class 3 C&R weapon the transfer would 1st have to be made to a class 3 dealer
in your state then transfered again to you from the dealer. That means additional time and money.
Dan

[hkg3k]

I also hold a C&R license and what carmandan is saying is true with (1) exception.

An NFA registered machinegun DOES ACQUIRE C&R STATUS AFTER IT BECOMES A VERIFIABLE 50 YRS OLD........thus being a "RELIC."

The problem is that the NFA registry of transferable machineguns almost DOUBLED between the time McClure Volkmer was passed by congress and its ultimate signing by Ronald Regan. Which means that most of the obtainable transferable guns out there were made in 1986 or a few short years before.......M16 conversions, Uzi conversions, Sten MP40 & Swed "K" Tubes, Sears(of all types), AK conversions, Registered HK receivers, M11/9s &.380s, Sideplates for the beltfeds, etc. etc.

There are a couple of notable "Curios" such as the S&W model 76 (which carmandan mentioned) along with the Armalite model 601 AR15 factory full auto and the Armalite AR18. I am sure that there are a couple of others which I am missing and someone else will add, but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Yes, your Mac10 made in '72 will acquire C&R status in 2022, however, a LOT of machineguns in the registry and most that are openly traded in any type of quantity will only attain C&R status in or shortly before 2036.

For myself, I will be an old man by then, at or maybe a couple of years beyond the ave life expectancy for a male. My collection will have passed to my 2 sons (or beyond) by then so to me it is not something I am not looking to with "wrenching hands" and a big smile on my face. It will be for me...a moot point.

hkg3k

[carmandan]

hkg3k,
I stand corrected on the 50 year status of machine guns.
Dan