Trigger recoil on MAADI

[edgo]

I don't notice that with my Maadi.

Ed

[Davy]

Chinese guns all employ a double arm trigger, which elliminates the "trigger snap/bite" you described. Most of the European pattern AKs use a single arm system (except Bulgarians, I think). Look at the trigger, or the bottom of the receiver where the trigger protrudes, and you will see the cut-outs in the receiver for the trigger arm or arms. You can get double arm triggers, even USA produced double arm triggers, and modify your receiver with a dremel tool. I did this with my Romanian AK-74. It took ten minutes, being very careful, and the result is a much better pull and a flawless receiver.

[Tantal]

Well, here is my chance to kill a very wrong explanation of this "trigger snap" The single hook design has absolutely nothing to do with this problem, the single hook does the exact same thing as a hook on a double hook design. None of my rifles have double hooks, and none of the rifles I have ever owned ever have had this problem. The need to have two hooks was found to be a waste of metal and friction in 1950's, and was removed when the AKM was designed, to make room for the anti-bounce device employed in AKM and AK-74. Do you think that all of these millions of rifles since then have this very annoying and painful problem?

Now there are many design changes to the trigger, disconnector, hammer and bolt carrier over the years concerning the single hook design, and there is a bit of mixing with these parts, especially in Egypt and Romania, and now the US where we have US parts and parts kits being put together with Rom and Polish etc, parts. This is producing a few problems.

For one thing, trigger angles and depth of hook, and disconnector lengths, and bolt carrier mating surface angles, and hammer face angles, are very different with some of these. Some of the Romanians have some AK-74 parts mixed with AKM bolt carriers, etc.

Now, you will notice that some Rom guns have a peculiar two stage feel, which is the too long disconnector rubbing the bottom side of the hammer (which is cocked) just before the hammer is released. This is one new feel to the old AK action, and is caused by parts that are not to spec.

Now lets say, when the bolt carrier is moving rearward, you still have the trigger pulled because you just fired the rifle and have not had time to release, and the carrier cocks the hammer, and the spring loaded disconnector runs out of spring load and bottoms out on the bottom of the trigger, and the hammer keeps pushing down, guess what? Well, that hammer will pop the trigger in your finger.
Untill it locks onto the hook of the disconnector.

This is caused by a poorly made trigger or disconnector, or hammer, or both. Any of these parts would probably be fine in another rifle that has parts they would match up to with better. Slight adjustment to the mating surfaces of the hammer hooks might correct it in about 15 minutes of fitting. A trigger with the front "ears" shaved too narrow, that would let the trigger tilt too much in the receiver when the trigger is pulled, would create the same problem, and let the disconnector bottom out,

Please don't continue to spread this single hook is bad theory. What a load! It's mismatched parts. And it can be corrected very easily.

I have also heard many stories about double fires with some US parts. These are also most likely not quite right in geometry.

Sorry, don't mean to insult anyone, but I thought I should let you guys know.


[This message has been edited by Tantal (edited 12-09-1999).]

[STEEL CORE]

Thanks guys, I never noticed it in any other AK I have fired, but they were all Chinese, and this is the only MAADI I have ever fired, am contemplating a US parts Egyptian and don't want the bite.....

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"STEEL CORE" ! When you want to send the very best!

[STEEL CORE]

Fird my friends Maadi at Deer camp in Michigan last month and noticed that each time I fired it, I could feel some of the recoil of the fired round in my trigger finger, since I own all chinese guns that do not do that at all, I was curious if anybody else notices it...???

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"STEEL CORE" ! When you want to send the very best!

[STEEL CORE]

Fird means F I R E D, said I was from Michigan, thanks to the Detroit Public School system I cannot type or spell well. Sorry for the translation.

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"STEEL CORE" ! When you want to send the very best!

[fireman]

tantal
explain more as to how to fix this problem. I have the same problem with my rifle.

[Corodon]

The trigger springing back hard is good... that way you can use a "Tac Trigger" http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

[CAMPYBOB]

relieving stock from the hammer "d" cross bar seems to work for me. with hammer "up", the lower portion of the "d" determines take up travel in trigger (as well as let-off) and upper portion defines the required interference with yhe disconnector. be careful with stock removal...a little at a time and re-check function. fire control group timing is a complex, inter-related thing. the main bug-a-boo is caused by the usa parts, which may or may not correctly duplicate "factory" geometry and profile.

a double hook trigger solves nothing, and it complicates the issue by causing four surfaces (two hammer / two trigger) mate perfectly instead of two surfaces involved with a single hook trigger. the second hook was removed on the akm and later variants to allow for the installation of the "rate reducer" / hammer retarder delay mechanism on full auto versions as tantal suggests.

use a stone to tune your hammer in, and possibly your disconnector. safety first, check all modifications carefully! adjusting the individual parts to fit is your problem, not the trigger configuration.

[buckshot]

Thank you Campybob, but I'm not clear as to what I should do. Mostly what I'm reading in your posting is: don't mess with it unless you know exactly what you are doing! Can you, or someone else, post a very clear explaination (maybe with simple pictures) as to where we should remove small amounts of material? Is there a USA made fire control mechanism that we could put in the gun?

[oneak]

I have the new model Maadi with usa parts,I havent really noticed the trigger slap,a friend of mine has a Cobray m11-9 THAT has trigger slap like you wouldnt beleive!!!It came with apiece of foam rubber on the trigger if that tells you anything!!!!!!!!!!!

[Packrat]

Check the posting on trigger slap from hell in the Romanian section for what I did on a Hungarian. I would rather work on the disconnector than the hammer, because you are working on an non-critical part of the piece. With the hammer, I would worry about affecting the reliability of the catching.

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Packrat

[John S]

I would not call the disconnector "non-critical". It's the part that keeps your gun from going full-auto.

[buckshot]

Tantal, we are still anxiously awaiting how to modify our triggers/hammers to prevent "AK finger!" After shooting 200 rounds through my Maadi this weekend, the bandage on my index finger should be off within a few days.

[buckshot]

I carefully examined the trigger slap problem last night. I removed the bolt carrier and manually engaged the hammer while pulling the trigger (to simulate firing). I then used a small file to smooth the upper portion of the hammer surface where it makes contact with other parts. I tried to remove only a small amount of metal. There definitely seemed to be a reduction in felt "snap back." I think that this trigger slap definitely has a relationship to proper fit and finish of the fire control group. Any additional comments and theories would be most welcome!

[Packrat]

There was a posting on the Kalashnikov board by someone with a US trigger group. He was getting contact between the hammer and the body of the disconnector, not the upper curve. It was causing the disconnector to mark the trigger. Tantal suggested removing some metal from the hammer to keep it from hitting.

The part of the disconnector that I reshaped is "non-critical". I agree that the part is critical, and the hook that catches the hammer should NOT be touched. But the shape of the top of the disconnector is non-critical -- just like the shape of the trigger does not affect the sear hooks. Sorry for the mis-understanding -- I did not mean that the part was not critical.

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Packrat

[FriscoPete]

I have never noticed trigger rcoil/slap with my all Egyptian Maadi RML. Must be a problem in fitting the USA trigger group in alright.

[AKDUDE47]

I fired my 20" Maadi for the first time in a few years today, and Dammit, it has trigger snap. I don't know why I forgot about it, but it sucked. I had to stop after one clip, and put on a glove, and even then it hurt. I need to fix this I guess, I just put a new stock set on her, and just had to take it out. Do you guys take the trigger group out of the rifle to do some grinding? Do you use a dremel tool or a grinding wheel? I have both. Thanks
AKDUDE

[Rajon]

Trigger snap is easy to overcome...just don't squeeze the trigger so hard. Hurts the accuracy a little, but then If it were match grade accuracy I was after, I wouldn't be shooting an MISR that cost me less than a decent scope.

[Packrat]

It seems there are different causes for the same problem. On my SA2000, a hard pull on the trigger eliminates the slap, but a controlled release brings it out full force. I determined that it was caused by the hammer striking the top surface of the disconnector when it recocked. Staying well away from the hook that catches the hammer, I filed the curved upper surface into a flat. Now the hammer strikes at a greater angle, forcing the disconnector back rather than downward. Just another innovation of the American manufacturers of AK parts.

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Packrat

[daytripper]

AKDude, i solved my snap problem by keeping the internals inside the gun, then i just polished (not ground) the surfaces that met.
the snap i felt wasn't all that bad, so i didn't think removing metal would solve the problem. oh yeah, try polishing up the bottom of your bolt carrier where it meets the internals... hth

[oneak]

I have found that if you use some of that gun grease that they use on semi-auto pistol slides on the hammer face and on the bottom of the bolt carrier try it you will like it!!!!!!!!!

[4202]

With some help, I fully fixed the trigger slap on my 2 SA2000s.

After firing and on recoil, the hammer is struck hard enough by the bolt to strike the disconnector hard enough to bottom-out the back, bottom, side of the disconnector onto the trigger group floor plate - you can see where the paint is worn off - and that "smack" is translated right in to the held-back trigger and right into your finger..

I disassembled the trigger group and replaced the disconnector compression spring with a stiffer, same OD but larger wire diamter, and 1/8" longer, spring cut off from one of the springs Brownells's Spring Assortment kit ($9.50 plus S&H for the kit, item #71, #025-071-000, page 123 in their 1999-2000 catalogue.) After reassembly, no more slap.

NOTE: When taking the trigger group pin out, be SURE to notice how the shepherd's hook spring is positioned (along the left wall of the receiver) to hold both this pin and the hammer pin. It's a real stinker to put back right.

[4202]

With some help, I fully fixed the trigger slap on my 2 SA2000s.

After firing and on recoil, the hammer is struck hard enough by the bolt to strike the disconnector hard enough to bottom-out the back, bottom, side of the disconnector onto the trigger group floor plate - you can see where the paint is worn off - and that "smack" is translated right in to the held-back trigger and right into your finger..

I disassembled the trigger group and replaced the disconnector compression spring with a stiffer, same OD but larger wire diamter, and 1/8" longer, spring cut off from one of the springs Brownells's Spring Assortment kit ($9.50 plus S&H for the kit, item #71, #025-071-000, page 123 in their 1999-2000 catalogue.) After reassembly, no more slap.

NOTE: When taking the trigger group pin out, be SURE to notice how the shepherd's hook spring is positioned (along the left wall of the receiver) to hold both this pin and the hammer pin. It's a real stinker to put back right.

[Geo S.]

Simple solution to trigger slap:

Get a piece of fuel line from an auto dealer. Cut it to the sice of the trigger and slip it in place. you can also add a peice to the carrier handle.

Works for Me! Also did this to my SWD M-11/9

Geo S.