sabot 7.62-25mm Rounds!!

[RogerL]

I'm working up a load using sabots and .224 bullets for the CZ-52 pistols. Take a look and please let me know what y'all think.
http://rogerl.0catch.com/cz52reloadingpage.html
thanks
RogerL

[Poodleshooter]

Just make sure that you watch out for bullet setback. Even though the projectile weight is low, setback could still really raise pressures to an unsafe level. Best powder would probably fill the case up to the sabot's base-thus avoiding setback.

[RogerL]

Went out saturday and shot them...the speed is only at 1432 avg and the rounds won't cycle the slide. Well, this was the first try so back to the reloading bench.
web page is updated.
RogerL

[JA]

My first attempt at using 30 caliber sabots and 55 grain fmj's with max load for 85gr bullet per Lee Modern Reloading manual of AA-5 (6.3grs)was the same results you got. Wanting higher velosity I decided to go with AA-7 powder as loads listed for it were 50fps faster. After receiving the Accurate Arms manual # 2 in the mail from Accurate Arms I noticed the loads for the 7.62x25mm round had been upped a couple of grains from the AA manual #1 and Lee manual.
The max load for AA-5 is now 8.5 grains. You might want to try this load a AA-5 and see what it does.
Using max load 10.2 grains of AA-7 per Accurate Arms manual # 2 resulted in 1480fps. This load would work the slide about 1/2 way on some to ejecting the brass on others but not moving back far enough to chamber another round.
My next test of this will be using AA-9 which gives 200fps more velosity @ the same chamber pressure as the loads listed for AA-5 or AA-7 powders. Loads with AA-9 powder were not listed in Lee or AA #1 manuals.
Email me for a scan of the page in the AA # 2 manual for 7.62x25mm loads.

[Poodleshooter]

Wouldn't going to a faster powder make more sense? You're using a really light bullet, so pressure shouldn't be an issue, but the high speed in a short barrel should necessitate a faster powder, right? Maybe something like Green Dot or Red Dot-a little faster than AA#5 but slower than Clays or Bullseye..... Keep us updated.

[RogerL]

checking the charts and found that IMR 700X is in between the red-dot and green dot. I have about 20 lbs of 700x to play with.
Thanks JA for the scanned pic and Poodleshooter for making the hint of using a faster powder.
Roger

[JA]

RodgerL,
Any results yet????

[RogerL]

Has it been a month? WOW, been busy at work(overtime) but will get into the gun room this week and throw some powder and give it a shot.
Roger

[JA]

Awaiting results with baited breath!

[RogerL]

I loaded up 10 rounds(5 pairs) starting with 3.5grs of IMR 700x and went .2 grains with each pair up to 4.3grs. The loads were still underpower to operate the slide with stock recoil spring (14.5lbs) in the CZ-52. I'm waiting untill friday (payday) to order the Wolff Reduced Power (12.5 Lbs). There was very little kick to the pistol, a weak 38 special cowboy load has alittle more kick then these loads!
I'm loading up tomorrow going with 4.5grs until I fill up the case.

The speed avg is the following:
3.5grs=1326.5 fps
3.7grs=1377
3.9grs=1439
4.1grs=1479.5
4.3grs=1549

Roger

[JA]

Alright sounds good you are on the road to functioning sabot loads. The lighter spring sounds like a good idea. I will have to find Wolff springs on the net and order one.

[RogerL]

I finished loading up the rest of the rounds. I went from 4.5 to 6.5grs, which is slightly compressed. I think 6.7 would be the limit with IMR 700X.
I'm planning to go out on Sunday and test fire these.

Roger

[RogerL]

Well, I test-fired the rounds without chronographing them. None of them worked the slide but starting at 6.1grs the hammer was getting reset(ie, the slide did move alittle to recock the hammer). After getting back from the range, the wolff spring was sitting in the mailbox. So I'm going to load up some more starting at 6.1 to 6.7. But I won't be able to go to the range until next weekend (doc is going to hack on my feet today)
Next time test firing the rounds, going to bring some milk jugs to shoot at and my video camera to tape it.
Roger

[Poodleshooter]

Any pressure signs on the brass or primer? If none are seen by the time you reach 100%+ case capacity, you could feasibly move to an even faster powder, with possibly better results. Crimp is probably out as far as regulating burn time, and you're working with the same weight projectile, so powder burn speed is the only thing to change.

[RogerL]

The primers looks good and no signs of high pressure. there is very little crimp due to the plastic sabot. 6.5grs is 100% and 6.7 is compress load. I'm really hope that the lighter spring would do it but its only 2 lbs less than stock spring. I'm also using regular primers.
Roger

[Poodleshooter]

Are you getting a complete burn, or are there any loose grains remaining? Are you going to move on to Red Dot or even Bullseye? Clays might also work, though it doesn't burn as readily as Bullseye when there is little or no crimp. AA#2 might work,too. You could try a magnum primer if you don't think that you're getting a complete burn due to the loose crimp on the sabot.

[ExplosivesNut]

I'm also trying to get a good Sabot round for a handgun. I'm still in the thinking / collecting parts to look at and play with / planning stage, but here are my ideas. Some of these ideas conradict. When (if) I work out the contradictions, I will buy the gun and build the ammo.

The requirements so far are:

1. After giving up on the concept of a semi-auto pistol feeding reliably with sabot rounds, I have looked around, and decided to go with a revolver. My goal is to devise a good varmint gun.

2. Serious velocity. Therefore, I need to start with a gun that shoots high velocity and cut the bullet weight in half. My idea of high velocity is a gun that will shoot 1400 FPS easily (that means in my reloading manuals more than half the powders listed rate over 1400 FPS at the maximum load.) That cut it down to a 357 Sig or a .44 Magnum. I ruled out 3.57 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and 10mm Auto, but may put them back in in the near future.

3. A modern calliber; I do not want to worry about C&R guns going KaBLowIE.

4. A common calliber. I also do not want to do all this work, and not even be able to give a friend a few rounds.

5. I arbitrarily decided to only use .224 and .308 bullets.

6. Sabots must be available to drop my chosen caliber down to my bullet diameter. I am looking into regular sabots and black powder sabots. I wonder if black powder sabots would work in a standard revolver? I have found the folliowing sabot sizes:
Barrel -> Bullet
.30 -> .224
.45 -> .40
.45 -> .38
.45 -> .35
.50 -> .45
.50 -> .44
.50 -> .40
.50 -> .335
.54 -> .44
.54 -> .45
.54 -> .40
.54 -> .335
.58 -> .45

.32 caliber = .315 diameter.
.36 caliber = .350 diameter.
.45 caliber = .440 diameter.
.50 caliber = .490 diameter.
.54 caliber = .530 diameter.

7. I need to be able to interchange barrels to see what effect the lenght has on velocity.

Now the most wanted list:

1. A black powder sabot to shoot a .224 round out of a .36 caliber rifle.

2. Any sabot for a .44 caliber (.419 diameter) gun.

3. A custom barrel to convert my CZ-85B 9mm to .30 Luger (a 9mm luger bottlenecked to .308), and a supply of very strong brass.

Finally, there is a cool picture of a Sabot round for a rifle at:
http://www.ammobank.com/images/rem/r30069.JPG

[RogerL]

What about the Ruger Blackhawk Revovler in 30 carbine?

[andy@recycledelectrons.com]

This message was deleted because I am not an extremist, and will not argue against these extremists anymore. I am going back to the CNN.com forums.

Andy

[JamesB]

All this playing around with sabots sounds like fun but if you are looking for a good varmint round out of a handgun and decide you don't want to mess with the sabot idea you could go for a Thompson Contender or Remington XP100. Then you're firing a 60 grain bullet out of a .223 case in a .223 barrel. There isn't the possibility for fast follow up shots though.

I like the idea of less recoil out of the CZ52 though. I fired my Dad's last week and I can only describe it as painful. It was somewhere in the range of full power 10MM on the discomfort scale.

[andy@recycledelectrons.com]

This message was deleted because I am not an extremist, and will not argue against these extremists anymore. I am going back to the CNN.com forums.

Andy

[JA]

RodgerL, update??????????

[RogerL]

Update:
Its been awhile but still had trouble getting the slide to operate. My loads would move the slide about 1/2 inch.
Whats bad is that I have too many projects going on at the same time and trying to put a hold on any new ones. I have been in the reloading room for two months now but soon I will start reloading again. I'm about 3 weeks from finishing building three rifles.
Roger