TOk.cz52 questions

[MikeTx]

*Ahem* that should read TOK/CZ52 questions


I've been looking these pistols and I am interested in one. I am confused on a few points though.

1. What's the dif in the Tok and the CZ.

2. The ammo. Is it really as hot as they say?

3. I read somewhere these pistols have to be cocked like a single action revolver each time you fire it. That sounds like nonesense, but I don't know.

Anybody know?

Thanks.

[ruskiegunlover]

both pistols have radically different designs. The Tok has a 1911 style tilting/locking barrel, while the cz52 has a roller locking action. The cz52 is more high teck then the yok, but its whatever you want. I have both, and both are great pistols.

They both are single action, semi auto pistols. You insert a clip, rack the slide, and pull the trigger. Racking the slide both cocks and puts the first round in the chamber. When fired, the slide recoils, expelling the spent case and stripping another round out of the magazine and putting it into the chamber while also cocking the weapon with the reward motion of the slide.

The ammo is pretty hot. What you've probably heard is about shooting czech surplus sub-gun ammo out of the cz52, which is to me very stupid. The cz52, while having a strong, reliable action, is not strong enough to feel sub-gun ammo. Plus, the ammo will blow up the Tok...........Or so I have heard. Its really a commen sense issue. No one should take a surplus army pistol, and shoot overpowered ammo out of it.

Compared to other calibers, the 7.62 25 round is pretty hot, and I believe faster the the 45 or 9........

Someone will have to check my facts..........

[graveman]

Ruskie,

Are we talking about the silvertipped Czech ammo on strippers of 8 rounds headstamped "1-53-bxn" which is supposedly steel core ( havent pulled a bullet ) SMG ammo ? If so I must disagree....I shot the stuff in my Chinese Model 54 Tok and other than shooting low ( about 3 inches low at 10 yards ) no other problems....no noticeable recoil increase and the pistol is still in one piece.

:cents:

[weevil]

Uh-oh someone saying the CZ-52, is stronger than a Tok.

Where's Clark? :D

[ruskiegunlover]

I myself have never shot any of the czech or bulgarian smg ammo.......If it exists......Some say it does, some say it doesn't. All I am saying is that, if he is new to both guns, and wants either one, he should know about this issue. Real or not, if he buys either one and plans on shooting surplus, he should be made aware of the rumors or issues sourrounding them. Like I said, I own both, and feel perfectly safe shooting Sellier and Bellot out of them........Sorry Clark, but there is no need to get your panties in a bunch over this........Even though the CZ52 is SOOOOOOOOO much stronger then the Tokarev.............

[ruskiegunlover]

:D :D :D :D :D

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[graveman]

Yes to stay on the safe and clean side shoot Sellier&Bellot and Winchester ( if one can afford it or find it.....$15 a box ) ..... muzzle velocities as per the websites of both above named companies are 502 m/s ( 1647 fps ) and muzzle energy of 514 ft lbs so yes it is a fast-moving hard-hitting little 85 grain bullet which can allegedly defeat soft body armour :eek:

[JA]

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm

[gp35fn]

MikeTx-between the two(I have both) I perfer the Tokarev over the VZOR 52-but that's my opioion. Try to handle both and make your choice. Graveman your Czech ammo was for the VZOR52 and VZOR 25/26 smg-the ammo is hotter then usual-it is steel cored-and they use to make a 100 grain 9mm steel core load too.

[graveman]

:jump:

Thanks gp

[Noah Zark]

Russkie covered the basic differences in his post.

Yes, some of the surplus ammo is quite hot. I will not fire any surplus identified as "subgun," "hot," or any 7.62x25 that is packed on stripper clips in my Toks or CZ52s. I have a mess of China Sports packaged stuff, some corrosive Yugo non-subgun 7.62x25 that shoots vey well, and S&B.

I also own both, several TT-33 Toks and two CZ52s, one original and one with a FAC 9x19 barrel and Harrington rollers. I find the CZ52 to be a handfull -- the grip is very deep (fore to aft) and is not particularly ergonomic for medium to small hands. It is a physically large pistol as well.

The TT33 Tokarev is IMO more ergonomic and more comfortable to shoot.

I've fired at least one of the Toks maybe 4X in 2003. I haven't fired either of the CZ52s in over three years.

Noah

[Buster Charlie]

ruskiegunlover has it right, but i'll throw in my two cents.

The CZ-52 will kaboom if you shoot bulgarian purple lable PPSh-41 ammo out of it. I've actualy heard from some people the TT33 will stand up better. But they're right, nobody in their right mind should shoot dangerous loads out of a 50+ year old gun. Basicaly the roller locking design is very very strong, but the chamber has thin spots it can fail in, so just be safe and shoot normal loads.


The 7.62X25 is rated somewhere between .357 and .44 magnum. It's a very very fast bullet with enough oomph to penetrate most body armors, so that makes it a fav among eastern criminals.

This makes it a deadly round, but questionable for self defense because overpenetration will be a problem. Obviously it wont transfer as much energy if its zipping through people but it does have a range bonus. While most .45 and 9mm SMG of WWII had an effective range of around 50m, the 7.62
guns aparently where good out to around 75m. This is probably why the germans thought it was such a good idea to get working on the Stg-44, then they could finnaly have the range and firepower advantage over the russians with their PPsh squads.


edit: I've shot some of the yugo surplus ammo, after shooting I get some neck splits on the case, but i've been told that wont kill me, but may cause throat errosion over time.

Right now AIM is taking preorders on romanian (steel case?) 7.62X25, I've ordered a case. I l*LOVE* this cartridge, but finding a deal on it is hard, so I say jump on this ammo if you plan on buying either gun.


PS these guns are like flamethrowers and are sure to attract attention at the range.

[az_paul]

The S&B ammo shoots great in both guns.

Buster Charlie.....Is the Romanian ammo from AIM safe for both guns? If so, I'll order a case as it's much cheaper than S&B.

My 54-1 TOK also loves the MagSafe frangible rounds.

az_paul

[Buster Charlie]

I've heard anything the CZ-52 can SAFELY handle the TT33 should be able to handle. Like I said I wouldn't EVER try and fire 'hot' loads. The TT33 is suppose to be a very robust design, it may not have a fancy locking system but Browning was a smart guy ( I know he didn't make the TT33, but he designed its locking system)




this page has some 7.62X25 loading info

http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/tokarev/


S&B:
85gr FMJ 1544 FPS 450Ft-Lbs
The guy says this is some of the most powerful/accurate ammo out there. I would belive it, it's also pricey and maybe too pricey for plinking (for me)

Romanian Surplus:
86gr FMJ 1497fps 428 ftLBS
Aparently have hard primers (Is this common in subgun ammo?) may require two hammer strikes so not good for concealed carry. But Its not dangerous (its weaker than S&B).

[az_paul]

Buster Charlie....Thank you VERY much for the detailed information. I'll stick with the S&B, even though it's a tad on the expensive side.

az_paul

[destrux]

I chrono the S&B red/green box ammo as the hottest stuff I have ever shot out of my CZ52, 1540-1599fps 5 yards from the muzzle. I havent tried any saboted loads, but I hear 2000 fps from a 40gr bullet is achieveable. I dont mind the recoil of any of the ammo in this caliber though, it recoils MUCH less than my keltec P40 does (or even my P64 in 9mm makarov). I think it's cause the CZ52 is so damn heavy and large.... which I like.

I dont know exacty why everyone believes that so many countries made "hot" or "subgun only" versions of the x25 cartidge...

Many people who have chronographed the various surplus loads for these guns have confirmed that ALL of the surplus loads (yes, even the supposedly ultra hot subgun loads) are below 1600 fps (fired from a CZ52). One of the most powerful loads you can get are the newer S&B in the red/green box, which consistently chronos at 1575fps. The ONLY stuff I have ever heard of blowing up any gun is the bulgarian mid-1950's stuff that is known to be a bad batch (and possibly sold as surplus BECAUSE it was a defective batch), and it has such high chamber pressures (62,000 cup was recorded from some that was tested) that it would blow a PPSh just as easily as a handgun if anyone had fired some from one (but who would buy a 5000+ dollar machine gun and fire old mid 50's surplus ammo from it? nobody, that's why it hasnt happened).

Why would any country make ammunition in the same caliber that couldnt be fired from both their sidearm and main weapon? (especially countries like these that had militaries that didnt have an unlimited budget). That's just asking for trouble, because you know the soldiers probably would have put the hottest ammo in all their weapons (either purposefully or accidentally). I dont think any of the countries would have risked the cost of fixing the broken weapons that could have resulted.

Also, why wouldnt you use ammo that came on stripper clips in a handgun? Why else would they come on 8rd clips with 40 rounds per box? Subguns took 30rd clips or 71rd drums, and 8rd clips would have left you with half empty strip clips after you load a clip or drum.

:soapbox:

Ehh... well any way...

You have to watch some of the older surplus ammo, cause stuff older than the 60's tends to go bad and misfire alot more than the newer stuff from the 80's. I have bought mid 50's czek ammo that actually had water stains on the box (but still fired with about 98 percent reliability, a few were plain duds and I salvaged the bullets to reload with).

[bobbthompson]

Some buddies and I shot up a junk car with a bunch of different guns. The point being to have fun, but also to see what different rounds would do to different levels of cover. The car stopped most of the pistol rounds unless you shot directly through both door panels. And even then, if you hit the door frame at all the bullet fragged.

The only 2 pistol rounds to consistantly blow through the car were the 357sig, and the 7.62x25. They blew through everything but the block.

I wouldn't think the 7.62 is a good man stopper, I'd think it's too hot. But get some scrap from the junkyard and shoot it. It's a powerful little round.

I think the exact thought on all of our minds when my cousin started shooting was, "WOW!"