Shot my M17s for the first time today.

[The Boss]

Well I finally took the bullpup to the range and was disapointed. Some of the English mags that I bought from Ammo man did not fit in the mag well at all and the others were very tight. I think that either the mags or the well might be out of spec. I had an Okay made USGI mag that also fit tight and none of them droped free and required alot of effort to put in and take out. The trigger was not that bad compared to what I have heard and I am sure that the stoning that you do will improve on that. The sights have to be the worst that have ever been put on a rifle bar none. I could shoot better groups with the bead sight on a shotgun at fifty yards then with these at ten. But the you already knew that. The thing that concerned me the most was when I had a FTF I believe that It was mag related as the English mags do not have the green USGI followers but there was no way for me to pull the bolt back to get the shell out I had to borrow a screwdriver to push to bolt back to let the round fall into the correct position and be moved in to the barrel. I think that with the proper modification this could be an amazing rifle.

Now the questions.

Do you have any problems with English mags?

Is the problem I am experiencing with magwell common?

Are there any mods that will allow me to manually operate the bolt to clear jams?

[KurtsKustom]

"I think that with the proper modification this could be an amazing rifle."

Yes, they need some tweaking and kustom accessories, but you're right.

Now the questions.

Do you have any problems with English mags?

Is the problem I am experiencing with magwell common?

Are there any mods that will allow me to manually operate the bolt to clear jams?"

Yes. Most M17 magwells are too tight. I open them up slightly. My preban is borderline on this issue. The charging handle will allow you to manually retract the bolt/carrier. Thx.

[The Boss]

The charging handle will allow you to manually retract the bolt/carrier

What about after the gun has been cocked? I was about half way throgh a mag wen it happened and when I pulled the charging handle it came back with little effort and did not move the bolt. I think that the manual says that it has a non-recripracating charging handle. Now is there a way to reengage the handle after it has been cocked.

[KurtsKustom]

It's always 'engaged', as the CH bracket tip protrudes down below the top of the receiver in line with the bolt carrier. It's like a standing ejector. It's always in place, it simply moves back and forth in its track, and is held forward by the charging handle cocking spring. Thx.

[The Boss]

When I say engage I mean be able to pull the bolt back with the charging handle. For example if I were half way through a mag with my ak and a spent round got cought in the chamber I would just pull the handle on the side which directly operates the bolt. On the M17s the handle is on top and once the gun is cocked the charging handle will no longer retract the bolt. So if there is a round that is cought in the chamber you half to stick your finger or screwdriver in there to move the bolt back to let the shell fall. Do you see what I am trying to say because I am not sure if I am using the correct terms to explain what happend?

[imanaknut]

You're driving me nuts. I am at work now, but as soon as I get home, I'm going to pull out my M17S and try to figure out what gives. I am getting the feeling that something is broken on your rifle, probably the charging handle, if you can't open the bolt after cocking the hammer. I'll report in 2 hours.

[The Boss]

I did not mean to piss anyone off it is just that I do not see how anybody could design a rifle with no way to clear a jam if this is the case.

To show you what I am talking about with an empty m17s retract the CH to cock the rifle the weight of pull on the CH is about 7 to 10 pounds. Now do it again, on my rifle the CH comes back with very little effort and the bolt does not come back with the CH. Now pull the trigger. Now retract the CH the bolt will now come back. I HTH to clearify what I am talking about.

[RJ Shooter]

The charging handle should still pull back the bolt at any time the bolt is forward. This is just like the M16/AR15, HK91, CETME, etc...

[KurtsKustom]

The CH will operate/retract the bolt anywhere in its travel. Its tip bears directly against the front of the carrier. So, when you pull back the CH, the tip comes back to wherever it meets the front of the bolt carrier, and moves it back from there on to the end of the bolt carrier 's rearward travel. You should not be experiencing the scenario as described. The tip of the charging handle can be seen here just above the op rod hole in the barrel extension:
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/M17SBEin.jpg
You say the bolt does not come back with the CH? Unless it's locked open by the bolt catch (actuated manually or with a mag in place), it will. That would mean it's staying back by itself, which is another odd condition. If the bolt is out of battery (as being 'back'), pulling the trigger would do nothing, unless there is a disconnector problem.

[The Boss]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
The charging handle should still pull back the bolt at any time the bolt is forward. This is just like the M16/AR15, HK91, CETME, etc...

I don't Know if that is what should be happening but on mine once I cock it a small spring will pull the charging handle into the forward most position onto the carry handle. Now if I pull the Charging handle back again without firing the rifle the only
resistance is the tiny spring that brings the CH foward after cocking. Now my concerns are that I my have a defective rifle i.e. (the bolt should come back every time I pull back the charging) which it does not if it is cocked or I reassembeled the rifle incorrectly when I field stripped it the day that I bought it which I doubt because the rifle functioned fine at the range except for the mag well and the one FTF which I could not clear out of the chamber by manually operating the bolt.

[RJ Shooter]

When this gun is "COCKED" the bolt should still be forward!!!

This rifle fires from a closed bolt! If you put no magazine in the rifle, pull back the charging handle and release it so the bolt flies forward, the gun is "cocked" per se. If it's staying back with no empty mag inserted, or bolt-hold button being pushed, something is seriously wrong.

The internal hammer is cocked, not the bolt!!!!! Just like on an AK or any other closed bolt weapon.

Note: the only open-bolt weapons you'll usually find are machine pistols like the MAC10, UZI, etc.; or machine guns like the M60, M240, etc. The purpose is for "air cooling" of the chamber...

[The Boss]

The bolt is foward after the gun is cocked but what I am saying is that if I pull the charging handle back again the bolt will not come back as the charging handle comes back.

Edit:
I may be saying bolt when I shoul be saying carrier but when the gun is ready to go as if their were a round in the chamber and the chamber is fully closed I can't manually open the chamber with out first dry firing for the CH to open the chamber.

[The Boss]

I am now leaving to go to the range to take some pics so you can see what I mean I hope that will help you guy to help me thank you for your patience.

[imanaknut]

I think I figured it out. There is an Allen head bolt on the top of the bolt carrier that the lug (tab) on the charging handle contacts to cycle the bolt and carrier assembly. If the lug is bent slightly up, it might ride over the Allen bolt on the top of the carrier, which is why it doesn't pull the carrier back when there is a jam, but does when there is no resistance.

Check the top of the carrier to make sure the Allen head bolt is not damaged, or missing. Check the lug that is connected to the charging handle (in the picture above you can see it just on top of the square breechface, directly above where the gas rod is located). Make sure the lug is not bent up.

See, I told you in my earlier post that I would respond around 3:30 my time.

[KurtsKustom]

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/M17Bolt.jpg

[KurtsKustom]

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/M17CHBoltInterface.jpg
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/page/page/42606.htm

[imanaknut]

THANK YOU KURT!!!!

[The Boss]

Ok I got back from the range, I mis spoke about being able to retract the CH and not the bolt after the first time the gun is cocked. What I ment was that when my rifle jams with a round stuck in the chamber holding the bolt half way open the CH will not bring the bolt back but it will come back as if the bolt hold open engaged on an empty mag.

I took some pics to show what I am talking about but I do not have a photo editor so I will have to e-mail them to someone who has the ability to shrink them down because they are way to large or I will post them in the morning after I find a way to fix them.


I will look at my rifle and read you post and examine the pics to see if that is the problem thank you guy for the help:)

[The Boss]

Please tell me that this is a new mod. If it is not I think that Bushmaster owe's me some parts. I do not have that long piece on my Bolt Carrier Group.



Originally posted by KurtsKustom
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/M17CHBoltInterface.jpg
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/page/page/42606.htm

[KurtsKustom]

You should have just the screw head on your bolt carrier. The 'long' piece which you speak of is the CH Cocking Plate, shown in the pic with its tip resting against the head of the socket head cap screw on top of the bolt carrier. It is not connected to the bolt carrier. It is, however, bolted to the plastic CH from above. The two screws you see when looking down at the top of the CH are what secures the CH to the cocking plate using the two tapped holes shown.

[The Boss]

So when the rifle gets jamed the Cocking Plate rides over the nut on the Bolt Carrier group and this is what causes me to have the problem I am seeing?

[imanaknut]

Do you have to use the bolt release button to return the bolt to the forward position? If so, the jammed round might be tripping the hold open device, which is a new one to me, but with anything mechanical, who knows. Since the CH is not directly connected to the carrier, there is no way that you can use it to move the carrier forward, and it would make it seem that the CH is disconnected, which in fact it is, and should be. Like the AR-15, the M17S CH does not recipricate with the bolt on firing as it does on some other firearms.

[The Boss]

No the bolt release will not return the bolt to the foward position. The only things that help is either hitting the left side of the upper in anger (which only worked twice) or using a screwdriver to move the bolt back to allow the roun to seat properly.

Kurt I was wondering if you or bushmaster had any mods or fixes pland to help with this issue.

Again thanks for everyones help.

[KurtsKustom]

That is indicitive of the bolt cam pin binding on the bolt guide rail. Where is the case head in relation to the bolt face when this happens, above or below? Yes, I have plans for another CH option, but it doesn't include a reciprocating CH.

[The Boss]

Well first I think the mags are half the problem because they don't have the anit tilt followers. When It happens the live round is usually facing in this direction / with the back of the round below the middle of the bolt face and the tip above the chamber. The second position is like this _ with the front and back below the chamber and the blot face. HTH

[KurtsKustom]

These are bolt-over-base failures? As in short-stroking?

[The Boss]

Short-Stroking and bolt-over-base I don't know these terms could you define.

[KurtsKustom]

It is a jam created by the bolt not getting behind the rim of the cartridge and the bottom of the bolt is passing over the case body.

[The Boss]

The bolt is not passing over the case body. The bolt is just getting being held back by the back of the case.

[KurtsKustom]

OK. The passing of the bolt over the case body is often attributed to 'short-stroking', meaning the bolt is not riding back far enough in cycling that the bolt face doesn't get back far enough to engage the rim.

[Rew]

I'd like to ask two questions. First, Boss, what type of ammo are you using? My M17s works fine with wolf but I have seen others that just won't cycle fully, thus a short stroke. Second, Kurk, how in heck did you get that pic of the chamber? Thats cool!!

[KurtsKustom]

It's Kurt, and that is a pic of my KKF barrel extension for the M17S, whch is going to be attached to a 30 cal. 1/8 tube for a 30KKF suppressed M17S upper. For a whole lot more on the M17S, please see: M17S Forum (http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/board/board_topic/11341/23770.htm)
Thx!

[The Boss]

I am using Federal American Egale 55 grain from ammoman and I do not believe that the rifle is short stroking but the next time that I go to the range I will ask the range master to take a look to make sure. The reason I say this is because when I cycle the rifle manually with the charging handle a round or two will still get hung-up in the chamber as I have described. I really think that the majority of the problem is mag related (Brit mags black followers from ammoman). I think that they are what is causing the jams but I am more concerned with what happens after the jam when I can't clear it.

Also I decided not to use wolf to breakin (first 500rds) the rifle to eliminate this as a cause any problems. Once I update my mags with the green followers this may help stop the jams and possibly stop the from getting held up who knows.

[KurtsKustom]

I know, but I'd have to see it firsthand. LMK. Here's another:
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/M17/GreenM17.jpg
Thx.

[Rew]

Kurt, do you sell that charging handle, knob, or whatever ya call it, and if so how much do you need for one?

[KurtsKustom]

A user-installed unit is $65, which includes a replacement slot cover. Thx.

[KurtsKustom]

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/M17/GreenXMepro.jpg
Thx.

[RJ Shooter]

Is that your faux AUG brake?

[KurtsKustom]

Yes, the prototype. I stuck it on there for the pics. I hadn't made the M60-Brake as yet (I did today) which is what was ordered. I'm really liking the Meprolight Mepro21i w/12MOA triangle dot. I'm putting one on my EXT. Thx.