HELP!...any mechanics in the house?

[Ned Flanders]

Houston as you all know had a big flood last month. My car(2000 Civic Si) was caught in this mess.

I only had to drive about 200 yards through 16 inch water before making it to safety. But the forward movement of the car made the water go just over the headlights the duration of the 200 yard drive. The car NEVER stalled and was left running for an hour afterwards to make sure it still ran. There was 2 inches of water inside the car as well that must have come through the doors sides. And lastly, my air filter was very wet.

The next day I drove it home 12 miles very carefully but forgot to reinstall the air filter. The car was very low on gas and at the gas station coincidently...it ALMOST stalled once. I filled it up went and got a new air filter.

Within that day I began noticing a decrease in gas mileage from my normal 27 down to 22-23 which is about a 15% loss overnite! I decided to try home remedies before handing over my $500 deductable. This included fuel injector cleaner, gas treatment etc etc. The lost mileage was still missing but the car drove perfectly and still topped out at 135mph with a 200lb passenger next to me. At this point I thought maybe all the Houston gas was contaminated due to the flood so I did nothing but continue testing my mpg for 3 weeks...

Then the first real problem occured, the idle became rough and the car came close to stalling when reverse is engaged. Once more I tested the cars top speed and it was still 130-135 with no problem getting there. So I made the insurance call and took the car in to Honda.

10 days later I get the car back ($2795 bill). The basically drained all fluids, packed new grease, and gave me a new computer but thats about it...no new fuel filter?

Later that day I again check the mpg after having driven 150 miles...still the same 22-23 mpg and even worse, now the car only goes 120mph before the needle basically stops and crawls to 125! So in addition to still having bad mileage, the car has LOST POWER.

The idiots at Honda claim the lost mileage is acceptable despite my telling them that overnite, NO amount of loss is acceptable. So they are claiming the car is perfect and even went so far as to say my car cannot go as fast as I claimed I have done...MANY TIMES.

What I need is someone here who can provide me with info as to what could be the problem. My last option is to contact HondaUSA and start a war which I cant win.

Its quite simple: before flood car gets 27mpg and goes 135.
after flood car gets 23mpg and goes 135
after repairs car gets 23mpg and goes only 125!

So now I'm stuck with a lesser model Civics performance with a V6 Accords fuel rating! HELP!

[bigden37]

Try a new distributor and the cap, or at least the cap. I'm not a mechanic, but I'll bethcha thats the problem. When you got her wet it more than likely cracked the distributor cap and got your points wet! Thsi explains the poor fuel miliage along with the other problems your having, could be wrong, but then I could be right!

[ValmetM76]

I don't know if your Honda even has a distributor cap but I can tell you for sure you don't have points. Those have been out of cars for....30 years.

Your Honda, just like all new cars, is completely controlled by one, two, three, maybe as many as 15 control units.

To run, the CU uses only a few signals. LOAD, which is how much air is coming into the engine, engine speed, and exhaust gas composition.

If there was something really wrong with your fuel control system the CHECK ENGINE light would be on.

Except, if a component is still sending a signal within parameters, even though it truly isn't correct, the CE light won't come on.

Which part is the MOST LIKELY culprit in this case?

THE AIR MASS METER, sometimes called the air-flow sensor.

It's the device right after the air filter whose job it is to measure the volume of incoming air. (so as to determine fuel injection requirements)
Modern cars use a HOT WIRE or FILM that is cooled by the incoming air, which provides a variable resistence value, that is used for computer calculations.

YOU CONTAMINATED your hot wire when you got it wet.
The device still sends a signal within parameters, but it is NOT precisely correct, hence your problem.

In other words, you need a new air mass meter.

You don't need a fuel filter.

Mike

[ValmetM76]

You didn't say if the engine was still missing.

If you still have uneven idle after the trip to the dealership you have another problem.

You bent at least one rod. Water cannot be compressed. If you sucked in even a couple of tablespoons of water, you bent a rod.

A bent rod does not allow full compression to occur in the affected cylinders as the piston is no longer coming all the way up.

A compression test will NOT always reveal this. You have to measure actual piston TDC, which can be done with a small rod through the spark plug hole.

Mike

[63DH8]

Mike pretty much hit it. Also, if you did suck water into your cylinder and bent a rod, you could have flattened a bearing.


One more thing to consider; You got the insides of your car wet. Cars have additional "sound deadeners" all over inside between the steel panels. All the insulation, sound deadeners, and foam in your seats could be holding water. If so, that's a lot of extra weight you're now hauling. That could be another cause for the lower top end as well as the lower fuel economy.


Next hot Houston day, roll up your windows, leaving one cracked just a little. See how fogged your windows get. That'll clue you in on how much water you have inside. Don't leave it closed up too long; You may end up with your headliner falling from the glue undoing itself in the humidity.

[BigDuke6]

Your first mistake was buying a Honda.


The other was paying almost 3000 for the work performed, take that riceball to a dealer and dump it. Buy a nice American car.









Remember Pearl harbor

[ValmetM76]

The last time I bought AMERICAN cars was in 1978 and 1980.

BOTH of them had total paint failure in less than 4 years and BOTH rusted out through the floorboards.....IN THE DESERT.

But, I wouldn't buy a car made by any head-lopping Asiatic motherfucker either.

Uh, European cars are good, especially one of the Swedish cars.

Mike

[Thorgul]

Valmet M76, and 63DH8 have said it already.

I can only add, that you should check catalytic converter. If it's malfunctioning in any way,- the first thing you've got is lost mpg.

It also is very low, under the car, it could be easily flooded.


Remove water from the salon, ASAP! Use big bags of a dehumidifier, untill dry. If you have two 2lb bags, you'll have to bake them in Microwave and use again for about 20 times to get the car dry. Do not forget to open drain holes under every floor mat and in the doors. In the trunk too.

Besides that honda is notorious for loosing it's mpg in about a year after you bought it. That's their trick to sell the car. They can't make it to hold there, and they say it's not a big deal, when you complain, basically, fucking you. That way they get your money and they get that "most popular" car status.


About american cars?
You'll never bring back the quality of american car untill you stop buying BS they making right now.
They don't give a fuck about customer, but yes, "we need to buy american", so that they get even more greedy.

Let them change most of their folks, and trow all those workers outside, then they might amase world with a super cars once again.

Buy Mazda , if it's not made on Ford's plants.
Buy Toyota otherwise.
If you have money, buy Chevy truck - those appear the only people in american car industry, who not sure if we will forever keep buying their trucks, so they keep doing good job, behind japanese, but at least they trying.

That's about all, the rest is either to spend money or to support the plant owner and black folks welfare.

[Ned Flanders]

Thank you all for your suggesstions.

The car idles and "drives" perfectly right now...just still bad mileage and top end.

My last 2 Civics got the same mileage from day 1 all the way through 150,000 miles, and this one did too until that night.

The car is completely void of water inside as there is no fog when parked outside with windows up for any amount of time nor is there any smell at all.

I guess I will try the air sensor as that seems to be the easiest and cheapest thing to try next.

Thanks for all the help.

[ED4x]

Besides what's been posted the loss of top speed is most likely from the vehicles computer(ECM/PCM). Most vehicles(especially since mid 90's) have a top speed built into the control module. The original speed may have been 135 and Honda may have updated the newer control modules to stop it at 120-125. They do this to save the engine and transmission. They also use revlimiters.

Never heard it called "air mass meter" but then that may be what the import manufacurers call them. GM calls them mass airflow sensor(MAF sensor for short).

I'm not positive that yours' has one. There are 2 different set-ups for efi. There are MAF and speed density. Speed density uses a MAP(manifold absolute pressure) sensor to tell the computer the engines load(or loss of vacuum).

[ValmetM76]

Jap cars use Denso fuel systems which are Bosch clones. Nearly every bosch system uses the Mass Airflow Sensor (which is the correct modern universal term, I just work on cars that had AMM first.)

MAP cars are pretty limited these days and usually found on low-end products.

It is correct that SOME USA destination imports have rev limiters.
Volvos do, Mercedes does NOT. At least most Volvos will top out at 135, some of the benzes will go 150, no problem.

Mike

[Ned Flanders]

The older Si's (92-95) had a rev limiter in 5th gear at 5200rpm...this new Si has no limiters of any kind and revs to 8000 in all 5 gears. The computer is the same one as before as I already thought about that possibility.

Also, this Civics engine and tranny are imported from Japan then installed stateside whereas all the other Civics (all but the Si) are American built engines and trannys. This car is actually an Integra GSR with a Civics body around it :)

Something else I noted today...there was always a "whistle" sound just like a turbo makes, from 6000-8000rpm that was clearly audible. This is the V-Tech system in action. Now you can barely perceive the "whistle" sound? There is no doubt in my mind that the car is not functioning as it should.

[ValmetM76]

If the car has a variable induction intake then yeah, a problem there can cause both milage and performance problems.

I don't have a clue as to how it operates on a Jap car but if it uses a vacuum motor the problem could be just a loose hose.

Mike

[Thorgul]

Wistle sound? Locate the source, then you will see if it's normal or not. At least you have something obvious to look for.

[MickeyMose]

The potential long term problems from immersion with modern cars is absolutely endless! Corrosion of wiring, sensors, structure etc. Try to unload it, even at a loss, as soon as possible. My opinions of Jap cars have no bearing on the imediate question but as you can guess it is not good.

Water gets in funny places! Most pressure sensors have vent on the back side. One drop of water inside the sensor and it's performance gets screwy. Mass airflow sensor, throttle position sensor, various temp sensors, fuel pressure regulator, the list goes on and on.... Like vomit said, not failed (yet) just off kilter a little bit. May get well, may die completely. Look for stupid things like air intake hose that is collapsed. Have dealer check computer for stored codes and give you a list of any found. Not all problems turn the light on.

Hard to beleive that the exhaust system could take on any water as that baby is HOT and will boil away a LOT of water. Also has a positive pressure when running, even in deep water. Oxygen sensors are down low enough and easy to screw up.....

Some sensors use small signals (like O2) and just a drop of water trapped in a connector will provide a large enough leakage path to fool the computer.

[lordviperscorpin]

What ValmetMike said +

Something could have been logded in your intake when you were messing around with the filter. Fuel injectors could be corroded or plugged as well. First replace the "air mass" sensor or whatever it's called to see if air induction is choked. I've dealt with these sensors on BMW's and they need to be replaced all the time (They go to shit pretty frequently). Also, the filter you replaced could be of less quality or improper fit, you might want to check into a K&N filter. They are reusable and a great investment. Lastly, check with the Better Business Bureau, find a reputable Honda mechanic (not those assholes who ripped you off) and have them do a visual check of all your electrical equipment. It shouldn't take much for them to asses whether thats the culprit.

And lastly, since Honda has discontinued your particular model (civic si) they have become highly desirable. If the repair work has you freaked you could probably break even should you decide to get rid of it.

I doubt you did much of anything to your car. You just need to have it checked by an experienced mechanic and not your dealer's grease monkeys who days ago were taking your order at McDonalds. Ever see the registers with the pictures of a hamburger on it ? Same level of intelligence.