CZ52s are not as strong as a Tokarev, despite what is written

[Clark]

I have proved it to my satisfaction.
But to explain it, you must understrand that I overload guns.
I handload. I put in more and more powder until something goes wrong.

It is not that the Tokarev is so strong, it is the CZ52 is so weak.

When I write to the authors of load books and magazines, they say, "We were just repeating what we read."

It is an urban legend in the gun culture that will take decades to get rid of.

The failure mode of the CZ52 is the camber splits through the thin spot on the bottom where material has been milled out to make room for the roller pins.

The idea that the CZ52 is strong becuase it uses a strong locking mechanism is a red herring. That is not what limits tihe strength. The thin chamber walls is the weak link in the chain.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=142948

[JA]

I have been following your posts on other boards for several years and it seems like you are fighting a up hill battle. Glad to have someone like you on this board that has been there,proved that instead of just parroting what they read.
The only "hot" 7.62x25mm ammo I have run into was not from Czechoslovakia(urban myth?) but one lot of Bulgarian 7.62x25mm ammo imported by Century Arms.
Could you post a close up pic of where the barrel split?

[Clark]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=249178

[alfajim]

Have you ever taken a tokarev to the point of falure?

[Clark]

I have tried. In incremental work ups of increasing powder, the brass fails and the primer falls out in a Tokarev [just like a modern gun should].

CZ52s are in the catagory of Aluminum framed 38 specials, only the Aluminum 38s take an extra 140% powder and get slightly damaged. CZ52s take 17% extra and have dangerous explosions.
Likewise old black powder breaktop revolvers will have trouble before the brass. But at more than 100% extra powder. And the break tops just get loose from an elongated eye of the latch. Again the CZ52 is in a class by itself for suseptabiltiy to small overloads and horrible failures.


1) 11.7 gr AA#9 is max AA book load, 110 gr , 1688 fps, 42k cup [a load so hot, it is for the CZ52 only]

a) 13.7 gr splits a second CZ52 barrel and slide [bye bye $150 gun] 17%.

b) 13.8 gr in Tokarev, shakes trigger bar loose with stock recoil spring

c) 14.2 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass, primer falls out

d) 14.6 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass rim ripped off, failed to extract

e) 14.9 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass bulges and rim rips off.

f) 15.1 gr in Tokarev, OK with S&B brass

g) 15.3 gr in Tokarev, S&B brass, primer falls out. 31%

[alfajim]

Sounds like you have put alot of time into this thanks for all of the good information. Does any series of the CZ52 seem more suspect than any others?

[abnewton]

this is a new one on me. i thought the cz 52 was the tokorev. i have a cz 52 that is stamped tokorev. please explain the difference. many thanks. a.b.

[Fistula]

Clark-

It is great that someone is out there really doing this sort of work for the benifit of all of us.

So, is it safe to assume that even the 'hot' Chezch 7.62x25mm ammo is safe to fire in a Tokarev?

[Clark]

I have some Czeck ammo, but it is 1550 fps and only 80% fire due to the thick primers for machine guns.
Here is a picture of a Tokarev:
http://webideas.com/tokarev/images/tt33.jpg

The word "Tokarev" was probably writting because that is the kind of ammo it takes:

I got a Letter from Ted Curtis ballistican at Accurate Arms in March of 2000. Ted Curtis, a very old ballistican already was bald and had jowls in his 1966 photo in "Speer 7". All the typos are Ted's:

"7.62 X 25 Tokarev

Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested
various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the
Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent
pressures between all other type sand manufactures was a welcome surprise . Indeed, the fact that CZech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol, produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal
lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo
tested certainly doesn't support this theory.

The pressure data shown here was developed in a 9" pressure barrel. We then fired the same loads thru an issue CZ-52 with a barrel length " to record the velocities. We felt that this would give a much better picture of the field performance of this data. The CZ-52 was kindly
provided by Mr. lane Pierce without whose participation in the form of aid, equipment and ammo this project could not have been completed. We feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for the CZ-52 so long as the firearm is in good condition. Other models of foreign
handguns of a lessor quality should probably be loaded in a more cautious manner.

Test Gun Douglas test barrel / CZ-52
CTG/Case Starline
Primer CCI 500

Bullet/Wt Powder Chg/WT Velocity Pressure O.A.L.
Sierra 85 RN NO 2 IMP 6.5 gr 1640 fps 41,500 C.U.P. 1.316""

[and the rest of the load published in Accurate Arms Load Book Number Two" in later 2000]

That book has some of the information of the letter:
page 80:
"7.62x25mm TOKAREV
This handgun is increasing in popularity in the U.S. In determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested various military ammo from China, Austria, Bulgaria and the czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also tested. Based on these results we arrived at a maximum pressure for our load data of 42,000 C.U.P. The pressure data shown here was developed in a 9" pressure barrel. We then fired the same loads through and issue CZ-52 to record the
velocities. We felt that this would give a much better picture of the field performance of this data. The CZ-52 was kindly provided by Lane Pierce. We feel that the maximum loads shown here are suitable for the the
CZ-52 so long as the firearm is in good condition. OTher models of foreign handguns of lesser quality should probably be loaded in a more cautious manner."


There are a couple errors I believe:
1) Ammo for the Tokarev was used to find the pressure for the CZ52, but the relulting loads were implied to be too hot for Tokarevs.
2) The CZ52s do not appear to have been proof tested.

But AA should be aplauded for doing anything new. Most load books are load from old load books just reduced 10% which were loads from older load books just reduced 10% ... and much of the gun culture reveres load books like some fundamentalist religious bible.

[NRAJOE]

This Clark guy is nuts. Everybody got tired of his dangerous bullcrap on gunboards.com and his thread on this was deleted. I've seen him on other forums also talking about the same thing like a broken record. He is going to hurt himself or cause someone else to try his ridiculous "lab" tests! The guy is an oddball fer sure!:eek: :rolleyes:

[sfc ret]

1) 11.7 gr AA#9 is max AA book load, 110 gr , 1688 fps, 42k cup [a load so hot, it is for the CZ52 only]

a) 13.7 gr splits a second CZ52 barrel and slide [bye bye $150 gun] 17%.

b) 13.8 gr in Tokarev, shakes trigger bar loose with stock recoil spring

c) 14.2 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass, primer falls out

d) 14.6 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass rim ripped off, failed to extract

e) 14.9 gr in Tokarev, Starline brass bulges and rim rips off.

f) 15.1 gr in Tokarev, OK with S&B brass

g) 15.3 gr in Tokarev, S&B brass, primer falls out. 31%


I'm no expert in loads......but to me if you exceed a spec, then it's no surprise that there will be a tramatic failure to ANY gun........so what is your point?

[Clark]

I overload guns to see what happens.
Mostly the same thing happens with semi auto pistols: the brass fails, except the CZ52. It is not strong like the others.
The problem is, the Sierra load book says the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev. That is just not true.

Here is a thumbnail summary of some of my semi auto tests, see if you can find any other guns that are weaker than the brass besides the CZ52.

Ruby Vesta 25 acp +134% primer pierces, firing pin hole too big
Colt 1908 25 acp + 146% powder can go higher
Kel-Tek P32 32 acp 112% powder, case bulge
Kel-Tek P32 32 acp modified feed ramp, +140% powder can go higher
CZ52 7.62x25mm +17% powder, chamber spits, causes slide to split and extractor breaks
Tokarev 7.62x25mm +31% powder, primer falls out
Mauser C96 7.62x25mm -3% powder, primer pierces
Berretta 1934 .380 +58% powder, can go higher
Kel-Tec P11 9x19mm +66% powder, primer pierces
Glock 19 9x19mm +52% powder, can go higher
Tokarev 38 Super +P, + 125% powder, can go higher
Tokarev 9x23mm, +30% powder, primer falls out
Glock 22 357 Sig, +22% powder, primer falls out
Glock 22 40 S&W +25% powder case bulge
Glock 22 40S&W modified feed ramp, +106% powder, can go higher
Kel-Tec P40 40S&W +23% powder, case bulge
Glock 20 10mm +0% to +26% various powders, case bulge
Glock 20 10mm Barsto barrel, +86% powder, case bulge
Republic Arms Patriot [Cobra] 45acp, +45% powder, can go higher
Republic Arms Patriot [Cobra] 45 Super, +19% powder, can go higher
Republic Arms Patriot [Cobra] 460 Rowland, +2% powder, can go higher
Colt 1991 45acp +16% powder, can go higher
Para Ordinance P10 45acp +22% powder, case bulge

Here is the thread that features NRAJOE:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=10&TID=7542&P=1&SID=1016084

Here are allot of threads without him:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=CZ52+group:rec.guns+author:clark&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d

[sfc ret]

Originally posted by Clark
I overload guns to see what happens.
Mostly the same thing happens with semi auto pistols: the brass fails, except the CZ52. It is not strong like the others.
The problem is, the Sierra load book says the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev. That is just not true.






first it was fred with his idiotic threads....now we got the evil knievel of gun loads........man what is wrong with you? are you trying to be inducted in the DARWIN AWARDS, or what?

[Clark]

What is wrong with me is that I know there are errors in the literature about Tokarevs.

This is a Tokarev forum, right?

Didn't "evil knievel" get hurt?
Don't the " DARWIN AWARDS" urban legends end with the butt getting killed?

In all my rifle, shotgun, revolver, and semi auto pistol tests I have not got hurt.

One way to look at the tests is that they are sanity tests on what load books say.

Is it so hard to accept that someone has found an error in the load books?

[weevil]

I must say, I've always thought it was odd, that the thin barreled CZ-52, is considered stronger, than the Tokarev, and its thick, beefy barrel. I certainly wasn't going to blow-up my guns to find out, though. If Clark is right, it wouldn't surprise me.

[der Stahlgewehr]

Some speculation here...
I was under the impression that the "stronger" aspect of the CZ-52 was that this pistol holds up better to the repeated pounding of firing hot (but safe) loads than the Tokarev. Think in terms of a fast moving slide slamming back and forth due to firing SMG ammo, not the chamber pressure itself. Maybe the CZ frame is built stronger than the Tok? What do you all think?

[Clark]

That might be called more "durable".

Rock Island Arsenal gun design request for proposals ask for certain things quantified; reliability, maintainablity, durability etc.


But in a load book, when they say "strong", they mean surviving high pressure loads, which the CZ52 can't.

When I write to them or Gunworld magazine, it is always the same story, "We were just printing what we read."

And when I ask them to corrct the mistake, it is, "We are too busy."

[Fistula]

I am glad that someone is doing this kind of work. Keep it up. There is way to much urban ledgend in the gun world. I am glad to see some quantitative testing.

[CZ52GUY]

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/19164CZ52_After_and_Before-med.jpg

The "urban legends" notwithstanding, the CZ52's IMHO can be appreciated for what they are, a concurrently ugly/beautiful, frustrating/enjoyable, loud (especially indoors), shootable collectable.

Yeah, I've heard some of the stories. But I bought mine for $125, it was the first gun I ever really "tinkered" with. She cleaned up real nice, the accessories search introduced me to Karl & George at www.makarov.com (my favorite hobby spot on the web, bar none). She's a tempermental shooter (oh she goes bang every time), but the heavy trigger is a challenge to consistently hit what I aim it with her. I guess that's what keeps me pulling her out of the safe, because I like a challenge.

She is what she is, a grand old gal'...mine turned 50 this year. I'd encourage anyone to consider this model as part of their collection, as well as a good supply of snap caps...the firing pin is brittle...

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[Skrenos]

Well, I for one am glad that there are people like Clark. Because of him, I have retired my cz52 from my reloading experiments (even though I did get a 90gr xtp to 1700 fps) and am now just going to shoot it with S&B or some sedate reloads. All my reloading experiments with 7.62x25mm are gong to involve the tt33.

[weevil]

CZ52GUY

I like the grips in that first pic. I'm dressing up one of my CZs, and looking for some nice grips. Are those the ones Makarov.com sells?

[Vampire]

Originally posted by NRAJOE
This Clark guy is nuts. Everybody got tired of his dangerous bullcrap on gunboards.com and his thread on this was deleted. I've seen him on other forums also talking about the same thing like a broken record. He is going to hurt himself or cause someone else to try his ridiculous "lab" tests! The guy is an oddball fer sure!:eek: :rolleyes:

If you have tests that show he's wrong, why not post those rather than just callin him a nut job.

[Buster Charlie]

Darwin awards are not urban legends, if they are found to be untrue, they are discredited. But they are belived to be true at the time of posting, usualy you need a police report to be included. Some turn out to be fake, most are real. :)


Would using a aftermarket cz-52 barrel fix the problems or would the new barrels be too weak also?

[CZ52GUY]

Grips are the checkered Walnut ones from Makarov.com. Mine fit perfect right out of the wrapper. I bought a set for my friend (who got me back into shooting last summer), and he had to file off a little for the slide release to function properly.

They are even better than this photo shows (scanned rather than digital photo...need to start taking some digital photos now that I have the camera).

Have a good week,

CZ52'

[Clark]

The problem with the CZ52 is the thin barrel and chamber and cut on the bottom of the chamber to make space for the rollers. This could be improved with modern materials, but they are more expensive and more difficult to machine, as per the following story:

Per the October 16, 2000 issue of "Design News Magazine", Ruger had a problem with the 454 Super Redhawk design. The 410 stainless in prototypes was ok with the 65 kpsi working pressure of the 454, but not ok with the 93.5 psi proof loads.
The original Super Redhawk had been designed for the 36 kpsi 44 magnum. Making a six shot, a design goal, was made difficult by the 454 larger cylinder holes AND larger proof pressures.

The Cylinder solution was to go to a specialty stainless, Carpenter's Custom 465, a martensitic alloy with an ultimate tensile strength of 260
ksi at peak aging.

Also the barrel had a problem. The standard 410 stainless was ruled out because of "throat slamming", a gas erosion problem. The first solution was 15Cr-5Ni stainless steel (15-5), but it took 28 minutes to machine instead of 17 minutes like the 410. Ultimately Ruger chose Project 7000, a 15Cr-5Ni type stainless designed specifically for machinablity. It matched the 410 machine time.
-----------------------

Here are some other threads where I have discussed the CZ52 strength problem:

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67826
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=10&TID=7542&SID=1140910
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=CZ52%20&safe=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_ugroup=rec.guns&as_uauthors=clark&lr=&as_scoring=d&hl=en
http://talk.shooters.com/room_47/7653.cfm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ccw/message/26767
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22034&highlight=CZ52
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3047&highlight=CZ52
http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000494-2.html
http://www.loadyourown.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000106.html
http://pub125.ezboard.com/fcollectorguns35625frm5.showMessage?topicID=111.to pic
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118237

[CZ52GUY]

So...

1) Use Factory Loads

2) Acknowledge the limitations of this unusual 50+ year old design

3) Avoid dry fires to avoid breaking the brittle firing pin (s-n-a-p c-a-p-s)

4) Have loads of fun within those parameters with a C&R gun that can be had for between $125 - 150

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[weevil]

Thanks CZ52GUY

I'll have to get some, they really look good. The CZ, I'm dressing up is blued, those should look great.

[teadiex]

So the point is:

Don't be a jerkoff that overloads your ammo.

This is excactly the stupid crap that gives hand loaders a bad reputation. Stupid, idiotic crap.


HERE'S THE DEFINITIVE ADVICE ON THE CZ52:

SHOOT ONLY S&B AND YOU PROBABLY WILL NEVER HAVE A MASSIVE FAILURE.

OVERLOAD YOUR AMMO AND YOU DESERVE WHATEVER HARM AND INJURY YOU GET.

THIS THREAD REMINDS ME OF THE POINTLESS CIRCLE JERK STYLE GROUND BOLT THREADS ON THE CETME FORUMS.

[CZ52GUY]

Enjoy,

And Karl @ www.makarov.com stands behind everything he sells. I've processed several exchanges for a variety of reasons with no hassles.

I recommend the take-down tool and the upgraded recoil spring also.

Good luck,

CZ52'

[lockwood]

Well some people call him a nut but personally if he has the funds and the time to do these tests then more power to him and the point is this, I saw loading data in a manual that said LOAD DATA FOR CZ52 ONLY and that seems to be what is dangerous because they are recommending false and dangerous information.
I once had a antique smith and wesson black powder revolver that was in almost mint conditon and this manual stated smokeless powder for a antique cartridge which I went ahead and loaded to see how it worked and ended up spliting the cylinder on this antique gun which made it next to worthless thank you very much and this was from a so called trusted manual, so maybe you naysayers get the point of clarks tests now! I for one very much appreciate the work that he has done. I am sure that clark is not holding these guns in his hand when he overloads them.

[teadiex]

Big Whoopie!!!!!

So if Clark was in charge you'da loaded twice the powder and KABOOM!

The point is this, Clark may end up inspiring some other jackass to experiment and hurt himself or worse yet, some innocent bystander cuz they think they're in charge of testing weapons.

No sane or intelligent shooter would be sanctioning what
dill wead does.

[Thomas Magnum]

I think maybe a Czech guy stole Clark's girlfriend, or maybe his lunch when he was a little kid.

[sfc ret]

Originally posted by teadie
Big Whoopie!!!!!

So if Clark was in charge you'da loaded twice the powder and KABOOM!

The point is this, Clark may end up inspiring some other jackass to experiment and hurt himself or worse yet, some innocent bystander cuz they think they're in charge of testing weapons.

No sane or intelligent shooter would be sanctioning what
dill wead does.

you are right on that.

[Boogieman]

Clark...how much would you say that you have spent in proving that the CZ-52 is a utter failure at doing something that it was never designed to do?

[Clark]

I have not spent much, maybe $300 for the two blown up CZ52s.

I suppose I have spent time, but who would regret time spent enjoying the wit we read on this forum?

[Buster Charlie]

Yah know there are dozens of pictures on the web of m1a, ar-15cks, ruger, and many other firearms that have had their barrels split, their entire receiver explode. So are all these crappy designs? I mean We should warn people not to buy the Springfield m1a because its a peice of shit that will explode at a moments notice right?

[Clark]

I am not aware that one can blow up an M1a or AR15 with incremental load work up ending when the brass fails.

Those are good designs, and don't have the big mistake of a chamber so thin it splits like a CZ52.

I have seen allot of guns that blew up from bore obstructions. If one sees the barrel split more than the chamber, there is a good chance that was the cause.

But more than that, Buster, what's wrong?
Did you spend your money on a CZ52?
Take it back.

[Buster Charlie]

ar-15 kaboom
http://www.fulton-armory.com/Kaboom.htm

?

m1a kaboom
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762r.html

Point is, any weapon can fail, and if your a moron and overload a gun then you get what you deserve.

I seriously doubt the cz-52 would be anywere near as popular as it is if they were exploding left and right. If this was anywere near a common event then how could there by any 'misconceptions' on its strength?


Anyway, I plan to buy another cz-52.

[CZ52GUY]

Originally posted by Clark
I am not aware that one can blow up an M1a or AR15 with incremental load work up ending when the brass fails.

Those are good designs, and don't have the big mistake of a chamber so thin it splits like a CZ52.

I have seen allot of guns that blew up from bore obstructions. If one sees the barrel split more than the chamber, there is a good chance that was the cause.

But more than that, Buster, what's wrong?
Did you spend your money on a CZ52?
Take it back.

It is one thing to debate the value proposition of testing the upper stress limits of a device.

It is quite another to suggest that when a device is deliberately forced to perform well outside reasonable parameters of design limits, that the device is defective.

Bottom line, a CZ52 using factory S&B and cared for carefully (watch that firing pin) is a great value and a lot of fun for w-h-a-t i-t i-s.

This reminds me of the SUV scare the pin heads tried to perpetuate on us when they declared them unsafe and prone to rollovers when they tried to drive them like a sports car.

Clark, if you want to take appropriate precautions, and describe to us the upper limits beyond reasonable use of a CZ52, you can waste your time and money and do so...it's mildly interesting information.

Don't lecture us that the device itself is defective. When used within normal parameters, there's no credible evidence that the design will fail.

This is not a defective product. Clark has proven that if you overload it enough, you can get the barrel to split...something I suspect that is common to most firearms.

I find Clark's logic disturbingly similar to the anti's...it's the "evil guns" we have to get rid of when it is really the misuse outside of lawful intent that is too often the problem.

CZ52'

[Clark]

What logic are you having trouble with?

I am a consulting engineer for switching power supplies, battery chargers and electro magnetic interference.

I design power supplies, but mostly I get calls when other engineers have designed powers supplies and get stuck. I can figure out why they are blowing up, fix that, increase the power until they blow up and keep going until I get power way beyond the requirements. When capacitors or transistors blow up they can sound just like firecrackers. The stress analysis on on capacitors and transistors has the same algebra as the stress on guns.

When I read in Sierra's load book that the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev, and yet I know that the CZ52 is the only semi auto I have ever tested that is weaker than the brass*, and the Tokarev is stronger than the brass, I think there is a mistake that needs correcting.

What logic are you having trouble with?


* I have overload tested the following and they are not weaker than the brass like a CZ52:
T33 Tokarev 7.62x25mm
T33 Tokarev 9x19mm
T33 Tokarev 9x23mm
C-96 Mauser 7.62x25mm
Kel-Tec P11 9x19mm
Kel-Tec P32 32 acp
Kel-Tec P40 40 S&W
Kel-Tec P357 357Sig
Glock 19 9x19mm
Glock 20 10mm
Glock 22 40 S&W
Glock 22 357 Sig
Ruby Vesta 25 acp
Colt 1908 25 acp
Beretta 1934 .380
Republic Arms Patriot [Cobra] 45acp
Colt 1991 45acp
Para Ordinance P10 45acp
M1903 .380
Star M43 9x19mm
Star Super B 9x23mm

I have overloaded the following rifles and they are not weaker than the brass like a CZ52:
1903 Turkish Mauser 8x57mm
1938 Turkish Mauser .243
VZ24 Mauser .257 Roberts Ackley Improved
91/30 Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R
91/30 Mosin Nagant 452/70
Ruger #1 .223
NEF Handi Rifle 45/70

I have overloaded the following shotgun and it is not weaker than the brass like a CZ52:
Steven break action .410

I have overloaded the following revolvers and they are not weaker than the brass like a CZ52:
S&W model 60 38 special
Colt Police Positive 38 special
Colt Pocket positive 32 S&W Long

What gun design is weak like a CZ52?
Iver Johnson break top 38 S&W [loads that would blow up a CZ52 stretch the eye of the latch]
Iver Johnson break top 32 S&W

[CZ52GUY]

Let me simplify the logic for you.

If a CZ52 fails when overloaded...don't do that.

You will be happier, and so will the CZ52.

Similar to the exaggerated claims re: the safety concerns about high profile vehicles.

If they tip over when you try to take an "S" turn at 60 miles an hour, don't do that, an SUV a Porsche 911 is not...

Trial lawyers love your logic...if it fails when pushed beyond spec's, it must be unsafe, let's sue!!

The CZ52 is a 50 year old design that when fired with factory loads, provides great fun at the range, is an attention getter (especially indoors - big flame).

It is an affordable collectible.

Parts are readily available at www.makarov.com.

It is not a modern combat weapon, nor should it be considered as such.

I find the value proposition of your testing of the CZ52 equivalent to a Consumer Reports evaluation of the relative safety merits of the 1987 Suzuki Samurai...mildly interesting, but the conclusions are based on the premise that misuse of a product can legitimately be described as a defect.

That is where our application of logic separates.

I take a $125 gun, dress it up, and have fun with it WITHIN REASONABLE OPERATIONAL PARAMETERS.

You spend $150 on a $125 gun, stress it to failure resulting in its destruction, then proclaim it to be defective.

I'll let the readers of this thread determine who is applying logic, and who is failing to see reason.

Best wishes and stay safe,

CZ52'

p.s. Instead of destroying guns (Sarah must be so pleased)...you might consider their recreational use within operational intent.

[Clark]

OK OK, the vehicle metaphor.

Imagine the cover of Sports Car Magazine shows a 1952 Rambler Station wagon and the article says this car stock is faster than any race car.

But you can't test it because your Ramber is on a highway with a 55 mph speed limit.


Yet you KNOW it has so little power and so much wieght that the article is bogus, just like the thin wall in the CZ52 is so weak that I KNOW the Tokarev is stronger.

[CZ52GUY]

Hey,

If someone tells me a '55 Rambler exceeds the performance of a race car I question the credibility of the publication...I don't rent time on a track and crash the Rambler.

I can appreciate it for what it is, an old car (my grandparents actually had a couple) that if maintained properly and used for Sunday drives, can be an entertaining toy.

You are correct that misinformation can be harmful, even dangerous.

However, you are dealing with a product intended for use by customers.

It takes consummables, like my car.

I put the right consummable in, I'm okay.

You are correct, that if somebody says I can put in unleaded when it needs a lead additive, that's a problem.

But I KNOW what it needs, and that's what I use.

As I long as I pump in the right consummable, I'm drivin' happy...it's not the CZ52 that's defective...the Sierra information appears to be.

Have a good one,

CZ52'