Do you know how to fight with your knife??

[Manchu]

I've had many teachers,

Show me yours and expand on what you think is important from
novice to expert.

[gi_janearng]

I think the best thing anyone can learn, is something that a member here on the board told me: In a knife fight, you will get cut, so practicing with a dummy knife and chalk is the best way to see what kind of damage you can do.

From what I've learned, I think that sometimes, the best way to get close enough to get a knife away from an attacker is to be stuck by it, if need be.

[Citizen]

First rule: You're gonna get cut. Second: Keep your knife close to your body until ready to thrust, slash or parry.

[hardcorps1775]

man, first thing i learned was don't get cut. don't expect to get cut. cut anything that gets close enough to cut. keep moving, the blade and your big ass feet. don't forget you have another hand and two good feet. get a big knife with a big blade and hack everything you can, he who bleeds first, bleeds out first.

seemed to make sense to me cuz i didn't have time to go through years of fancy training...good training, but nonessential in the scheme of things. my scheme of things.

[kekaha]

1 run away, if that don't work...

2 don't let them know you got a knife

3 two knives are better than one (and so is two edges ;))

4 slash anything within your reach

5 don't forget you also got two feet to do some lower limb damage.

[LHS]

Put the knife away, pull your pistol, and shoot the dumbass.

Failing that, if you can reach his body, he can reach yours. Stay at standoff distance and cut at his hands/wrists. If he can't hold his knife, he can't hurt you.

[5KNIVES]

Some good points made here, but my opinion is a little different. Real mixed emotions about this topic.

The first job I ever had for pay was when I was 15 in a locker plant, slaughtering and butchering every thing from chickens and rabbits to deer and cattle. I wasn't squeamish then and I'm not now. Over the years I've been on hand for 2 knife fights, and been there after the fact for 3 others. A totally bloody mess, sickening is putting it mildly. Cut a major artery on a human being and the blood will spurt 3 meters. By the time some poor S.O.B. has bled out, there is blood all over everything. There are some smells that T.V. doesn't cover very well, and oh yeah, it's NOT fast, there's moaning, screaming praying and crying going on. Going on for longer than you would ever think possible.


This is not including the slashing fights some minorities used to engage in in So. Cal. where the intent seemed to be to cut the other guy, draw blood, brag about it and be satisfied. I'm talking about the honest-to God 2 guys trying to kill each other kind. where one or the other is frequently successful.

Never been involed in one personally, Thank God. And I don't want to be.

My own training was standard U.S.M.C. circa mid '50's. with some "advanced" techniques thrown in. If you read "Kill or get Killed" and "Cold Steel" you pretty much know what my training was, that's about it!

Frankly my first rule is "run away", my second rule is same as the first!

If you allow yourself to get into a fight where the armament is equal, you're already in serious trouble! LHS has the right idea.

If the weapons are of equal range, then the only variables left are skill and luck. And whoever you are, however much you practice, however good you think you are, there is always someone better, faster, bigger, stronger, or just luckier. You never want to get caught in that position.

If the other guy has a knife, I want a pistol. or at the very least a stick or staff. If he has a pistol, I want a shotgun, if... well you get the picture. I really have no intention of giving him any kind sporting chance. That's strictly for the movies and T.V.

The key to survival is to ALWAYS have your oponnent out ranged. "Never give a sucker an even break" says it all just fine.

Knife training, like strip-mall storefront "Martial Arts" classes, are good for building confidence, and usually a good exercise programs. But probably won't help much otherwise.

[Citizen]

5K makes a good argument and I have read both of those books and I concur. It is better to run then to take on an equal opponent that may or may not get lucky.

I'd rather pull a gun and have the upper hand. Saying that I have had to pull a knife on two seperate ocassions. One when someone came at me with a club and another when three gang bangers wanted a piece of me. In both cases upon pulling the knife the opponents backed down. I really believe that it was half-hearted attempts on their end that it did not step up to the next level. And I am happy it ended that way.

[ubersoldate]

A knife will put you through more pain than a gun.
If you have to use a knife keep it close to your body untill the thrust or chances will be its taken away. One slash on the arm or wrist your tough KNIFE FIGHTING days are gonna be over in minutes..
The theory of "you will get cut" is great n all but if you get cut good its over, plain and simple, so DONT GET CUT.
It aint TV....no one is getting slashed and driving home, If you get cut good its over.
The two rules I learned revolve around this statement,
DONT GET IN A KNIFE FIGHT and if you do,
1- get away from the knife as fast as you can
2- use a knife to make your escape or a chance to deploy your main weapon.

The practicing with a plastic chalk knife is a really good idea though, Ive done it a couple times in tactical class and pistol retention classes...
Each time I wish I would have had a gun....
Dont bring a knife to a gun fight..

[LHS]

I've been in one knife fight, and one knife confrontation. Neither ended with blood, thankfully.

The first one was an asshole who pulled a knife on me and just tried to stab me. I got lucky and caught his wrist, popped his shoulder out of socket, and beat him nigh to death in a fit of rage. I think I was so pissed because I was so scared. I'm honestly surprised I didn't shit my pants. I got very very lucky because he didn't know how to use a knife, and I managed to grab his knife wrist without getting cut. I still have that Spyderco he used, too.

The second one was a kid who pulled a Buck folder on me, but I intimidated him into putting it away. Then I sucker punched him in the gut and stomped him unconscious. I don't like people pulling weapons on me.

[5KNIVES]

LHS

Damn, heres somebody with the right attitude, remind me to never piss you off!

I relate to the over reaction when scared bit. I was 45 years old. A 25 year old recent graduate of Illinois finest prison, was raising hell and hurting people. When I requested that he desist, he broke a beer bottle over my head. my next really clear memory was of him bent real backward over the hood of a car, me with the blood running into my eyes and my hand about 1/4 inch away from crushing his windpipe, and my partner screaming "dont kill him, dont kill him"

Worked out okay though, he lived!

Aren't reflexes wonderful?

I was plenty scared, because in the normal "lets act tough, insult each other, and then lets hit each other" routine, he would have beaten the living hell out of me!

[LHS]

Sad thing was, both of those knife incidents happened before I was 16. Since then, I've learned to avoid such shenanigans ;)

[5KNIVES]

LHS

Avoidance is GOOD!

I subscribe to it wholeheartedly!

That particular situation I was on a protection assignment, plausible Death threats had been made against the management and staff of that particular establishment. My job was to make it not happen.

Weird thing is this, my model 19, 2 1/2 bbl. never came out of the holster. I was just frightened and mad. and I reacted the way I was trained 20 years earlier. Shooting the S.O.B wouldn't have been satisfying enough. I'm a much calmer person nowadays. Ask anybody.

Today it would just be a quick field test of my American Derringer .357, or something more serious. I'm to old and tired to screw around with dangerous people.

[netanyaman]

Many people giggle when my best friend and I have seminars concerning edged weapon employment and defense. Trained individuals with blades are soooo much more dangerous than anyone with a firearm. It's as simple as this......a blade can be employed with more angles of attack. A blade can cut a person up into pieces, literally.
A blade up close is faster than a gun, with trained people on both sides. We actually have tons of fun showing this on a weekly basis. We use Emerson knives with the Wave feature to enhance draw speed. Knife fighting is nasty, up close, and yes, expect to get cut. Just train with any Polynesian or Philipino martial artist and you will know what it's like to have your stomach churn after months of intense drills and study of human anatomy.

[5KNIVES]

netanyaman

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear, your points have been made a thousand times over on rec.knives, and the knife forums.

IMHO, Your making invalid assumptions.

The primary survival criteria is situational awareness. I, and I dare say a few others on these forums might agree! We might also agree to everything you say. but it only applies if someone allows you to get within knife range. I wouldn't! Nor would most of the other people here LEO training for some years has been to double tap at 21 feet. The knife guy isn't going to do too much damage with 2 or 3 .40's or .45's in his solar plexus.

Enjoy the training, and the skills you develope, it builds strength, speed, confidence and endurance, all good things. But don't ever test it in the real world, unless there is no alternative. It can be fatal!

Back in the 70's I got to bag a 24 year old "trained and experienced martial arts and knife fighting Expert", been training since he was 8, according to his parents, long time black belt they said.

He went chasing after a guy who robbed the store he worked at. We found him 2 blocks away with his balisong still in his hand, and a 9mm hole inthe center of his forhead!

No Flame intended, just be cautious

BTW, spent time in the Phillipines and other knif-centric cultures also, They all seem to forget the knives if they can get their hands on a pistol! I always thought that was wise of them. I still do!

Have Fun

[Vampire]

Can I?
Better than some,
Not as well as others,
Not as good as I'd like ;)

Do I want to? no. Seen 1 knife fight, been in a position to pull mine only once and thankfully the others decided to call it a night before anything happened.

One of the few "masters" I acnowledge used to say whenever teaching weapons "If confronted with a knife, it's best to learn the english word E-X-I-T... and use it."

It's my sincere hope those folks training to "take the blade" never have to see if they can survive what a trained figter (or a lucky punk) can do with just one 'hit'. Hell, I hope none of us do.

Was surprised to read two comments 1 about the superiority of a knife to a gun. Most of us are probably familiar with demonstraitons where a knife fighter is "x" ft away from a cop and attacks and is able to hit the "cop" prior to a draw. Yes it's a scarry thought. Yes a man skilled with a blade is extreamly dangerous even to an opponent armed w/ a gun. Thing is folks, put any half wit with a gun in the small of his belt in that same demo and he'll be able to draw and fire prior to the "cop" drawing his weapon.

ACTION beats REaction.

Oh < edit to add > that isn't to say the knife vs armed cop demo isn't a valid demonstration. It is. Mostly due to the awareness and psycological "slap in the face" (wake up call). it gives those that watch it. To many (not limited to leo's) strap on a gun and think they're invincible. It's a painfull lesson to find out you're not. :( < end edit >

The other thing I was interested in was the comment about prefering a club to a knife. In the situation where I pulled my knife, it was because 1 of the critters I was up against had a small club. I felt the better armed, but maybe that's just me. Want to hear the crazy part? I was on the way home from a gun range. Guns in a locked box in the trunk, ammo in a seperate latched box. I have NEVER felt as far away from a gun as i did that evening.. hehehe

[5KNIVES]

Vampire
Good Post, well thought out the way mine usually aren't! took a break to understand myself and here's my way of looking at it.

As a civilian, the knife laws are so variable, often from municipality to municipality, that without a CCW (my state isnt there yet) the penalty for getting busted is sometimes more severe than a concealed handgun. It's impossible to carry anyrhing laeger than an x-acto knie and absolutely know you are never breaking the law. wherever you might go. And I think some states CCW 's do not cover knives but I'm not certain of that.

So if you feel you need a weapon, why would a person carry (legally or otherwise) anything but the longest range, most powerfull weapon he could obtain?

I can present a scenario where some 40 lb. test fishing line and a 1 ounce sinker would be the ideal weapon. Or a BIC pen. But neither fits my image of an EDC defensive weapon.

Sticks can be very effective in a real emergency, swagger sticks (interesting history there) canes or even sturdy umbrellas and pool cues are very serious. Essentially jab for the easy soft spots (base of the throat, solar plexus, under the chin or an eye socket, etc.), never swing like a club or bat.
But they'd never be my first choice either!

Col. S. Colt and The Immortal JMB had real good ideas! So did Sgt. Kalishnakov!

[Kevan.62]

Where knives really come into their own is in certain situations. Most employers will not allow you to have a gun on the premises, but most don't even see a Benchmade AFCK as a "weapon"---it's "just a knife". For all they know or care, you're using it to open boxes. You might have a gun in your car, but getting to and from vehicle in parking lot is the key if you work late and the lot is not well lit. In many states with CCW, you still may not carry a firearm into any establishment that serves alcohol. The key there is to avoid bars, of course. But some places interpret that as ANY place that serves alcohol, be that Red Lobster and Outback Steakhouse. Plus, the getting to and from vehicle where your gun is. Also, even in some CCW states, stores may opt to post "no firearms" and you have to comply or stay out. You might say fuck them and not go in there, but what if it's an absolute have to go in there proposition? Another thing is that a lot of situations occur where the assailant is right on you, making drawing a firearm a posibility of him gaining control of the weapon or keeping you from using it. If that person grabs hold of a blade, he's going to turn loose pretty quick.

Back to the workplace, you'll find even earthy-crunchy vegetarian salad shooter liberals carry folders, so they're less apt to ring the "workplace wacko" alarm if they see you with one there. In most places, a gun in the workplace, they're calling the SWAT team saying you're disgruntled and ready to whack the boss and everyone around him. Then you lose your job. What a mess! So, the Benchmade or Spyderco folder you have so you have something. "What's that for?" Cutting boxes. "Can I borrow it?" No, I'm sorry it's a gift from my wife and so it's special, ya know. Sorry. Simple as that. If you never take it out, they'll usually never even know you have it. BUT--if they do se it, they'll just think, oh, big deal, it's just a knife. But they see a gun secreted on your person, the kevlar party squad shows up and you go to jail until they sort out what your intentions were while the boss is getting your final paycheck ready. And you won't get to use him as a reference on your resume. "Why did you leave your last job?" Uh, I brought a gun on to the premises. "I see.....hmmmm...ah, yes, ah....well...uh, we'll call you."

[LHS]

Arizona prohibits carrying 'weapons' into any establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises (i.e. bars, Outback Steakhouse, etc). A 3"-blade knife is not a weapon per state law, so I carry my Benchmade Stryker into these places and leave my gun at home (if I'm going to be drinking) or in the truck (if I'm not). Still, in a bar fight, I'd be reaching for a pool cue. Longer reach than my knife, and I'm a medieval reenactor, so using a club/mace/sword/stick is pretty comfortable for me. It helps that my preferred weapon in such endeavors is a spear, so the cue is like an old friend come to lend a helping hand. Plus, juries being juries, "He disarmed the knife-wielding drunk with a pool cue" sounds a lot better than "He severed the knife-wielding drunk's wrist tendons with a military-style fighting knife".

[Kevan.62]

If I'm not mistaken, Arizona law does not mention blade length in reference to laws pertaining to knives. I could be wrong, but a folder is just that. No blade length prohibitions. Kind of hard to find a pool cue in Outback or Red Lobster, though. But one could probably raid the live lobster tank at Red Lobster and threaten to pinch a guy's nose off with it, heehee.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Vampire
Can I?
Better than some,
Not as well as others,
Not as good as I'd like ;)Ditto. Never want to find out how good I am...

http://home.earthlink.net/~roglisaj/gunsnet/Tattoo-SuperSmall.jpg

[5KNIVES]

Clarification Note:

Never said I didn't carry a knife, always! Never said I didn't know how to use one. Note the sig line one my earlier posts, anyone want to guess how I got the nickname?

When I was working I was technically illegal in both municipalities I drove through, as well as at work. State law is weird too. vague, but it has been interpreted as meaning that any knife used as a weapon, which was concealed, was therefore a concealed weapon.

Counties and minicipalities all have their own laws too. My county says 3 inches total blade length, not cutting edge length. If the blade is longer than your drivers license your'e busted. Fortunately most cops really don't care unless you use it for something naughty. I have been busted for DUI, with a 4 inch plus case folding hunter, and just had it handed back w/o comment when I Bailed out. But that was some years ago, I admit.

I guess my point is that if all I have is a knife or knives, I do not consider myself armed.

If I have the slightest reason to suspect a confontation, I will have a firearm at hand.

Improvised weapons are interesting. Never thought about the live lobster though, Hmmm.
like throwing a live alley cat in someones face, Hmmm!

Thats it , I could rent a little space in a strip mall , right next to Master Kwans school of Judo, jiu-jitsu, karate and Tae Kwan Do and Oriental Cuisine! I could call my self a Grand Master of, some obscure oriental art of live animal fighting, wear some really silly costumes, and could quote inscruitable oriental wisdom, Things like "The eye of the tiger is rarely on the frog!"

I could give the suck ...errr, students colored belts and Certificates and everything!

Thanks guys, I got to get to work on this, I could make a fortune!

Hmmm, rats? Yes!. ... Gerbils? no ... Dobermans? maybe....Hmmm....I wonder about ........

[Vampire]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
http://home.earthlink.net/~roglisaj/gunsnet/Tattoo-SuperSmall.jpg
Translation of the writing? I'm a victim of learning an "American Martial art" I can only read engrish ;) :p

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Vampire
Translation of the writing? I'm a victim of learning an "American Martial art" I can only read engrish ;) :p The Kanji in Japanese = Matsubayashi

In Chinese = Shorin

Both = Pine Forest in Engrish! :D

It's Okinawan Te (oldest Asian fighting system other than Chinese Shaolin). It was one of the two styles (Shuri-Te/Naha-Te) developed by the Okinawans to defend against the Japanese and the Samurai. Some aspects were taken from mainland China (much like your style - Kenpo) and expanded upon. It was practiced while hidden in the "Forest" thus the reason for it's name...

It is a true "Martial" defense system and was not intended for competition.

[TheRebel22]

don't diss judo or jiu jitsu. Judo pwns you. and So does Brazilian Jiu Jitsu <--- best martial art in the world.

[Kevan.62]

In a state like Arizona, you really have no reason not to have a firearm in the car. You're allowed to have a loaded piece in there even without a CCW so long as it isn't concealed. My point was that you don't always have access to a firearm in certain places. You go into the local library, and you can't even carry a knife in there as it is clearly posted "no weapons". And guess where all the homeless wackadoos hang out? The library. So, in there, you'd be stuck having to yank "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" off the shelf and applying a little literary blitzkrieg across the bridge of some dirtbag's nose if you got into a spot in there. Some POS here just a week or two ago got a lesson about robbing a guy sitting in his truck by using a knife. Puts knife to guy's throat, guy pulls a .45 and the next thing, the cops are looking for a mugger with a big brown shitstain on his pants.

In many restaraunts in Flagstaff, you're well defended just forcing the food down the throat of an attacker. But I think you might get in trouble for excessive force or some weird homeland security thing about the use of biological weapons.

[torquemada055]

The best martial art is the one you dont have to employ.
After 19 years working in California Prisons, I've seen a lot of knife fights and responded to many more, the guy's who came out the best had the fastest feet.
If that wasn't an option, it seemed to help if you had longer arms and better hand speed than your opponent.
I've been in one fight, got a cut on the chin about 1" long that took 9 stiches, I reacted and cut him in the thigh missing everything but muscle. He screamed, I ran fast and never looked back till I was down the road a long way.
That was 23 years ago, and I still remember the pain and shock and the FEAR as I ran like the hounds of hell had been unleashed and were about to catch me.
Since then, I've taught my 3 kids and had them learn and practice, I've also taught them how to avoid confrontations and when to strike hard and fast.
Being a former Marine and a Correctional Officer may have gave me a weird view of the world but I dearly love my klids and want them safe.:D :D :D

[HDR]

Originally posted by Citizen
I'd rather pull a gun and have the upper hand.

If you're close, the knife has the upper hand.. Played that game and the guy with gun never got it out.

Originally posted by torquemada055
it seemed to help if you had longer arms and better hand speed than your opponent.

Speed is most of it and I have a 39.5" sleeve and yes that is correct.

[8dDUCE]

Yes. Pray your never need to use it. Anyone can guess, speculate, or give a "this is what I would do". It NEVER happens that way. Sometimes you never see the blade until it has struck. 8dDUCE.

[Rew]

I have been trained with a knife. But my training in no way included face to face confrontations. If its face to face I want the knife on the end of a barrel. HDR? 39.5" slevees? DAMN you've got me by 17". Which is one very imporant reason, when using my hands or a knife when there is just no other choise, I have to get in close and be quick and very aggrisive about it.;)

[HDR]

Yup.. I'm right tall and long..

As you training is cool and you fight as you train, but one never knows until they test the temper of their spinal steel..

[sw99]

no but I hope if I ever get in a life or death fight, the guy iam fighting does. unless he can run 1000fps:D