Bow before the Katana

[infosponge88]

Just wondering if any others feel as I do.....The Katana in my opinion is the most effective edged weapon ever.It has undergone more technical evolution then any other sword in history.I am a proud owner and bow before its might. Posted by Sixgun :cool:

[Rew]

I am afried I disagree. Ya can't stick a Katana on the end of a rifle.:p ;)

[azreloader]

Katana.....that's Japanese ain't it?

:bull:

[willard P]

I'm no expert by any means but I have to respectfully disagree.The Japanese sword did go thru a few design changes thruout it's history. But, all those slight design changes stayed true to it's original purpose. That was a cutting and slashing blade with less emphasis on thusting. It was mainly designed to cut thru unarmored peasants. The armor it did encounter (samuri,shogan) was more for looks and provided very little protection. Both Japanese armor and weapons designs became stagnant. On the other hand European armor and fighting tatics constantly evolved thru the centuries,even peasant conscript soldiers wore heavy chainmail ,leather and simple plate armor for protection. swords and edged weapons followed suit. With improved styles,designed to defeat stonger,tougher armor. They were still able to deal with softer tatget very effectively.
I'm not saying that a katana isn't a good weapon but put on a 14th century European battlefield it would be near useless against the armor of the day. you'd be trading for a European cut and thrust sword real quick. A 13th or 14th European cut and thrust sword would be very effective against an armored Japanese warrior

[LHS]

A well-made katana is a wonderful weapon, but I'd still take a good German or Swiss hand-and-a-half over it any day of the week.

[Uncle Scary]

Originally posted by willard P
I'm no expert by any means but I have to respectfully disagree.The Japanese sword did go thru a few design changes thruout it's history. But, all those slight design changes stayed true to it's original purpose. That was a cutting and slashing blade with less emphasis on thusting. It was mainly designed to cut thru unarmored peasants. The armor it did encounter (samuri,shogan) was more for looks and provided very little protection. Both Japanese armor and weapons designs became stagnant. On the other hand European armor and fighting tatics constantly evolved thru the centuries,even peasant conscript soldiers wore heavy chainmail ,leather and simple plate armor for protection. swords and edged weapons followed suit. With improved styles,designed to defeat stonger,tougher armor. They were still able to deal with softer tatget very effectively.
I'm not saying that a katana isn't a good weapon but put on a 14th century European battlefield it would be near useless against the armor of the day. you'd be trading for a European cut and thrust sword real quick. A 13th or 14th European cut and thrust sword would be very effective against an armored Japanese warrior

The katana would probably not penetrate 13th Century plate mail, but the lighter Samurai would have remained outside of the swing radius of the European knight. Plate mail is heavy and quickly fatigues the wearer. If the knight was dismounted, the Samurai would have just had to wait until the knight got tired, then killed him with a well placed thrust.

Anybody seen the movie Rob Roy? At the end, there was a duel between the guy with a claymore (a heavy hand and a half sword), and a guy with the rapier. The guy with the rapier should have won that fight..and he would have won if the hero didn't grab the rapier blade and held on to it while he slashed the bad guy with his claymore.

[LHS]

Plate armor isn't nearly as heavy and encumbering as you'd think. I've fought for hours in it, and if it's fitted properly, it's not bad at all. It's not weightless, but neither does it transform you into a lumbering golem like you'd think.

[Uncle Scary]

LHS,
A full set of plate is about 75 lbs. European men were a head shorter than men nowadays...that is a lot of weight to move around in for a small guy if not mounted on a heavy warhorse.
Actually, I don't recall any battles during the renaissance when full plate was used by an unmounted fighter.

Anyway, when you were wearing full plate armor, did you feel like you were limber enough to take on a Samurai?

[LHS]

Originally posted by Uncle Scary
LHS,
A full set of plate is about 75 lbs. European men were a head shorter than men nowadays...that is a lot of weight to move around in for a small guy if not mounted on a heavy warhorse.
Actually, I don't recall any battles during the renaissance when full plate was used by an unmounted fighter.

Anyway, when you were wearing full plate armor, did you feel like you were limber enough to take on a Samurai?

That's jousting plate. You can get field plate for around 60 lbs or so. Plus, these were men who were quite used to the weight, and in much better shape than I am. And when wearing heavy armor, I'd certainly feel fine fighting a person of equivalent skill who was wielding a katana. The only way he could hurt me would be to thrust, and my thrusting weapon has a bit more reach ;)

[azreloader]

Go ahead dude, post your "Blue Knight" pic.

[LHS]

Originally posted by azreloader
Go ahead dude, post your "Blue Knight" pic.

Ask, and ye shall receive.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~hostileintent/ikonboard/iB_html/uploads/post-11-51953-johannixxArmor2.jpg

[5KNIVES]

I'm drawing a blank on the name of "Greatest swordsman in Japans history ", wrote "The Five Rings" IIRC.

Seem to recall his greatest concerns were fights against any one armed with the BO (big stick), it seems the swords were prone to shattering if struck properly with the BO, as I recall he warned his readers/students/disciples about it.

I think one of those german Landsknecht's with his 48" + blade would do right well, with or without armor. Ditto anyone who knew what he was doing with a Halbred. Range is always the key.

In many instances during WWII, the preferred answer to the sword was a 1911-A1. The Japanese Officers put great faith in their swords and swordsmanship. they were proven wrong in the most definitive way possible.

Fun to think about the "ifs" though !

[azreloader]

"Ask, and ye shall receive."


:rockin: :rock:

[jack in the black]

To hell with this Knight v. Samuri stuff.I want to see a burly half-naked viking berserker with a ax with an ungodly tolerance for mead, and high on mushrooms go against a samuri.

[5KNIVES]

Originally posted by jack in the black
To hell with this Knight v. Samuri stuff.I want to see a burly half-naked viking berserker with a ax with an ungodly tolerance for mead, and high on mushrooms go against a samuri.

Headless berserker loses. Sword has the longer reach, 'bout 7 times out of 10, at least !

Looks like LHS could tell us for sure! SCA?

[jack in the black]

I know but I would still like to see it.

[azreloader]

It would be worth the price of admission.:eek:

[5KNIVES]

Make that Berserker one of my former Norwegian in-laws, and I guess I'd watch too. Maybe even cheer a little, for the oriental guy! Maybe cheer a lot !

[LHS]

Originally posted by 5KNIVES
Headless berserker loses. Sword has the longer reach, 'bout 7 times out of 10, at least !

Looks like LHS could tell us for sure! SCA?

SCA? Nah. SCAdians use plastic or aluminum armor and wooden 'swords'. My group uses steel armor and steel weapons. We leave pickle barrels and road signs alone, rather than scavenge them for armor ;)

In all honestly, given an equal level of skill, I think the European knight would win in a melee combat. The armor (and the European armor-piercing weapons) are really just too hard to overcome, IMHO. A more highly skilled Samurai could defeat a lesser European, but all other things being equal, I think the European would win. Now, if the two met on the street and wanted to brawl, sans armor, I think the Samurai might be on a little more even footing. I think some of the German practitioners of the Liechtenauer/Ringeck school of fence could probably give them a run for their money, though.

You'll find a lot of the WMA practitioners, like myself, tend to look down on a lot of the Eastern martial artists, primarily because so many people are ignorant of Western martial arts and believe that the Katana is some sort of perfect, unbreakable, cuts-through-steel-girders-and-SUVs god-weapon. It's not, it's just a sword made with exquisite skill from substandard materials. Japan's iron ore sucked. The smiths had to find some way of removing impurities and imperfections in the steel, and hammering/folding it happens to do just that. The Persians, Syrians, Spaniards and Norse all did the same thing, but they started with much better steel. The Japanese did wonders with what they had, but it still wasn't the be-all-end-all of weaponry.

[LHS]

Two things I forgot to mention:

First, for 5KNIVES: The man's name was Musashi. He was an excellent swordsman and strategist, if the legends are to be believed.

Second, for azreloader: check out this (http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188073) thread about the upcoming Phoenix-area get-together this Saturday. Sounds like we got three people, myself included, showing up so far. The more the merrier, as they say!

[azreloader]

Leaving Saturday for a week in Diego!:hyper:

[AKMac]

So do you guys think a hand-and-a-half sword is the most versatile sword?

[LHS]

Depends on what you think is versatile. A rifle is more versatile than a handgun in most combat situations, in that it can work at much longer ranges as well as close-up. However, try carrying a rifle around on your daily business in the city. The same could be said for swords.

[5KNIVES]

Originally posted by AKMac
So do you guys think a hand-and-a-half sword is the most versatile sword?

IMHO. not always, very useful weapon but every instance is a comparison. Like which is best, AK or 03 Springfield? It depends, thats why even today armies are a mix of weapons.

When LHS is around my opinion gets very humble indeed, he knows his stuff, lets see what he has to say.

His comments about martial arts are absolutely right on. Happened to be part of a small Marine Corps experiment in '56 and '57. Examioning the value of the eastern disciplines. Long ang involved story. But the result was the decision that unless a person had a minimum of 2 years of study and practice. (There were 3 graduates of the Kodokan (Sp?) in Tokyo in the group, and they were scary, awesome, dangerous, and the most calm, quiet, peaceful and even tempered people I've ever known)

The result was that without that degree of training (8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week) you would have a great deal of trouble against someone with NO formal training, who was just determined to seriously kick your ass. In fact , you'd lose!

BTW, if your knuckles aren't half the size of ping-pong balls, and if your little finger still bends. don't try to tell me about karate! We'll keep the proper triming and forming of callous as a secret test.

Now I suppose we'll hear from all the storefront black belts. So I'll answer the flames now, I was there and I've got the scars to prove it! End of that discussion!

Oh Yeah, there can never be an Akido match, because to be the agressor would violate every basic philosophy and principal of the art. But a lot of people learn a few of the holds and throws and call it Akido. It aint! Only Akido against the other forms is valid.

Sorry for the rant, kind of a hot button of mine, nothing personal aimed at anyone.

[Uncle Scary]

Originally posted by infosponge88
Just wondering if any others feel as I do.....The Katana in my opinion is the most effective edged weapon ever.It has undergone more technical evolution then any other sword in history.I am a proud owner and bow before its might. Posted by Sixgun :cool:

If I had to depend on an edged weapon, I would prefer a fast, agile sword like a katana, unless armor came into the picture. If it did, I'd want to have a small shield (buckler) and a gladius to get in close. IMHO, if you get inside your opponent's swing radius, there's little they can do.

[Flinter]

I think for general purposes I'd choose the Claymore.

For serious close hand to hand fighting nothing beats the knife and tomahawk! ;)

[LHS]

Originally posted by Uncle Scary
If I had to depend on an edged weapon, I would prefer a fast, agile sword like a katana, unless armor came into the picture. If it did, I'd want to have a small shield (buckler) and a gladius to get in close. IMHO, if you get inside your opponent's swing radius, there's little they can do.

That's where kampfringen ('Combat Wrestling') comes into play. The German Liechtenauer school of fence puts a great emphasis on wrestling, both armored and unarmored. They don't putz around, either. Quite a few of their techniques involve destroying the opponent's balls with whatever implement of nastiness you happen to have handy, be it a longsword, spear, dagger, or even your knee.

Now, when I say 'School of Fence', a lot of people will think of Olympic fencing. This is not so. "Fence" in the time period was the term for martial combat arts, and the Liechtenauer school encompasses longsword (a light, two-handed cut-and-thrust that could be used, albeit awkwardly, as a single-hand sword), arming sword (the typical single-hand cruciform sword), buckler, rondel (a type of armor-piercing dagger), lance and spear, both in armor and unarmored. Christian Tobler did a wonderful interpretation and explanation of this style, using the original manuscripts (called "Fechtbucher", "Fight-books"). Look for it at Chivalry Bookshelf (http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com), the book is called "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship" and it's an excellent read. You could also look up Tallhoffer, and the Codex Wallerstein. All give excellent insights to the German schools of fence in the high middle ages.

[Flinter]

LHS......Do you know when the final stage of the claymore was achieved? I'm not talking about the basket hilt ones that are still issued to Scottish troops, but the 2 handed angled guard style.

[LHS]

Originally posted by Flinter
LHS......Do you know when the final stage of the claymore was achieved? I'm not talking about the basket hilt ones that are still issued to Scottish troops, but the 2 handed angled guard style.

That I don't, but I would wager it would probably be circa 1400-1500 sometime. Supposedly there were a few early models around during Wallace's rebellion, circa 1300 or so, but I really don't know enough to pinpoint the year.

[infosponge88]

I must defend the Japanese armor and swords.For one Japanese armor was not merely cerimonial,it was a thick and light armor woven from several fiberous materials and leather.One suit could take months even years to complete,and was resistant to bolth piercing and slashing attacks(the Chinese discoverd it was weak to impact based weapons).The Katana is often thought to be a non-piercing weapon but this simply is not so.My proof of this can be found in Bushido teachings,or in the swords themselves as they have a remarkably effective armor piercing tip still used by many knife makers today and often referd to as a tanto tip.Oh yeah and one of the inovations in japanese steel was that they put their ancestors ashes in the steel and thus inadvertantly used carbon steel earlier then many other cultures.I am not by any means saying europian warriors were ineffective as I too think they were badass....But I will say Europians Startid using guns much earlier then the Japanese and thus stoped heavy development of armor and blades about 400 years before the Japanese adopted the firearm.Just a little schooling from Sixgun,thanks for reading.

[LHS]

Considering how many Europeans in the late medieval period used mass or impact weapons like maces, hammers, axes and flails, I think the Japanese would still find themselves overmatched. Just my $.02, of course. And, truthfully, I'm biased ;)

[HDR]

Originally posted by willard P
Both Japanese armor and weapons designs became stagnant.

"They" isolated Japan from the world and it shows. The Japanese even believed they could avoid gunpowder, needless to say the attempt failed.

[powerkicker]

You actually need one of these;

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/8797DT_5143_custom-med.jpg


So that you can do this;

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/8797Dscf0046-med.jpg

Or this;

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/8797small8.jpg ;)

[LHS]

Hey, looks like me on a Wednesday night in that last pic.

[Kalashnikov7.62]

Sorry but I have to disagree. It's no wonder the Japs lost the war.
Maybe a (chinese) Sabre or a bayonet...
:bull:

[11c_infantry]

Originally posted by Flinter
I think for general purposes I'd choose the Claymore.

Yeah!!! Me too!

Here's my favorite kind:
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/31545m-18a1.jpeg

Oh....wait a second....you meant the claymore sword. :D

I still like mine better 'cause it goes boom. :ywoot

[Flinter]

^ Now that's funny! :D

[infosponge88]

Wielding claymores....hehehe...I like it:D ..............Sixgun

[shinto187]

Supposedly Miyumato Musashi (sp) prefered the Bamboo Kendo type sword over the Katana, BTW, there was or is a big damn ship in Japan's Navy called the Musashi, and yes, us Aikido folk are not into being show-offs, Aikido is not an offensive art. I prefer the Katana, because I am use to it, I have trained with it and it just feels right to me, I am not knocking European Steel, it just does not feel right to me.

[XOX]

I like Katanas, but, as good as they are even they are not as good as people THINK they are.

The technology that made the katana what it was is the laminated steel. Other than this material advantage, everything else was about the warriors that wielded them and how they did so.

So, I will say that I do ineed find the Japanese, and Philipine, weapons based martial arts systems to be the best of the Asian weapon based systems, it is more about this than it is about the actual weapon itself.

I would love to see a duel between a Samurai and a European swordsmen. I do beleive that the European would fare far better than most would imagine.

Anyways, Katanas are primarily thought of as being superior weapons because they were wielded by superior warriors. The Katana is over hyped (which is NOT a detraction, just fact).

Technique is everything. Always remeber that great skill can make up for lacking equipement, but lacking skill can not be made up for by even the best equipement.

BTW, my favorite sword is actually a Wakizashi sized blade with a Katana sized handle. I've always thought that the hand guards (tsuba) were too small on Japanese weapons. I also often wondered how a Katana or Wakizashi might benefit from a Basket hilt. But then I guess it would just be a cutlass or saber.

XOX