AR15 Practice Techniques?

[RJ Shooter]

WHEN AT HOME:

How do you hold your rifle during personal offensive/defensive practice when it is not aimed at a particular target? High ready? Low ready? Wedged in your armpit? etc. etc. etc.?

Once you are practicing engaging your target(s), do you practice single shots, doubletaps or multiple shots on each target?

Do you use pets, family members, neighbors in your scenerios? :p

Do you practice in the day and night?

Do you practice getting to your weapon from wherever you are in the house? (ie. kitchen table, couch, toilet)

Just curious about people's techniques...

[RJ Shooter]

C'mon kids????

[Epinephrine]

I have my gun at the high ready at all times. The low ready isnt a tactical technique, just a drill designed to teach students about muzzle control that got miss-aplied as a tactical technique.

The reason I keep my gun at the high ready is because you will always have enough room to make sure your muzzle clears your cover instead of having to back up to get enough room from teh wall. Plus w/ the high ready you already (or you SHOULD) have your sights already alinged.

I use double taps or multi taps (3 shots or more). Unless you are carrying a Barrett M107 around as an Assault weapon or never miss head shots then there is no gurranttee that one bullet will stop your target.

Because the only range around here is a conservation range, I dont get the chance to practice at night.

I havnt ever practiced getting to my gun in the house but I should probably start.

[RJ Shooter]

Epi, I think EVERY tactical team out there would disagree on the high-ready stance. ;)

With low ready, your stock's butt should basically be at the point of contact with your shoulder. This allows the rifle to be brought to bear in one single 45 degree movement to your cheek and eyes! This is the purpose of the 3-point sling, to keep the rifle ALWAYS in the low ready position...

In a high ready stance, it takes time to bring the butt up to your shoulder, while bringing the muzzle down to your eye level, and then mating your cheek to the stock.

Here's the classic low-ready stance with a rifle:

http://home.earthlink.net/~roglisaj/gunsnet/eotech1a.jpg

[RJ Shooter]

Low Ready Dick Kramer prints (borrowed from his site):
http://www.dickkramer.com/images/SealwTrident.jpg
http://www.dickkramer.com/images/Ghillieman2042.jpg
http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2206A_01New.jpg

[RJ Shooter]

http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2300_02.jpg
http://www.dickkramer.com/images/showtime2301.jpg
http://www.dickkramer.com/images/2901.jpg


Pistol in a semi-low-ready stance:
http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2906_01.jpg

[RJ Shooter]

Epi, I think you might be thinking of a different ready stance... :D

[thedaledoe]

I would think high ready would be intended if you knew your target/perp was in your area. But if you are just patrolling or scouting it seems unecessary. I havent done any practice because I would either A. Freak my parents out if Im at their house. B. My room mates at college would laught their asses off at me.(most likely scenario) Now, if I get some time alone in either house ill drop the blinds and have at it. :D

[Epinephrine]

Originally posted by thedaledoe
I would think high ready would be intended if you knew your target/perp was in your area. But if you are just patrolling or scouting it seems unecessary.

Like I said, the low ready is a muzzle control technique, not a true tac position. In an ideal world you would not want to have to bring your gun to bear. Plus, people have a tendency to get as close to their cover as possible. With the gun in the low ready you will have to waste time backing up so your muzzle wont bump into your cover. With the high ready you already have enough room.

Everyone has their $.2 and most will dissagree with me, , but I dont see the viability of the low ready.

[RJ Shooter]

...that's because you haven't praticed extensively with these techniques! ;)

To each his own.

[RJ Shooter]

Oh, and by the way, if I rush you, I can have your own muzzle in your face in the high ready. Being a martial artist, I've practiced the technique quite a bit.

Low-ready also gives you a good defensive posture in CQB invironment.

As for barracades and low ready. If your sights are not already on target when approaching the barracade, all you need is a slight shift in your body to move the rifle over the object. You are also exposing LESS of your body during this movement.

EXPOSURE is a big issue in defense techniques.

[Boogieman]

Be sure to practice AR malfunction clearance drills.

[RJ Shooter]

Good point! I don't use them, but those with tactical latches will appreciate them at that point! ;)

[Boogieman]

Un-jamming an AR is a bit more complicated than an AK. In a social situation, once the adreneline starts pumping, fine motor skills quickly deminish. That's where the practice kicks in.

[thedaledoe]

How exactly do you practice unjamming an AR? Do you take a spent shell and try and fix it so it stove pipes and mess with it? Or do you just go through an order of things to check?

Not that any of you old guys play computer games, but I play the America's Army game that was created by the Army for recruiting purposes and is now a world wide phenomenom(sp?) Anyway, when you get a jam in the game you press a button and you can see the guy give the mag a couple slaps on the bottom, pull the bolt back, quickly look in the bore and then release the bolt forward.

Now you are saying that this is just a game and cant be real. THis game was intended and created as the most realistic game out there and its pretty damn good. I could go on and on about how its so realistic but I think you get the point. I would assume this is the way they teach it in the military otherwise it wouldnt be that way on the game.

And if you have a good computer and a quick internet connection(cable +) Id say download the game and give it a try, if for nothing else than shits and giggles. I think you would enjoy. :D

[Epinephrine]

I have played it an I know what your talking about. Thats the only way I have seen it done. Most bullets jam above where the charging handle is. Now if your talking about getting a broken or stuck shell out, your probably pretty fucked in the field and should go to your sidearm.

[JE3146]

i hate the jams in Americas army.. i have it so it never shows my mag count... or ammo count within a mag.. so.. often times I cant tell if its an empty mag or a jam.... playing the game like that is a REALLY good training tool for real life scenarios because even though its a game..it trains the ear to listen for the shots and subconciously count.... a mag change can be deadly if done at the wrong time... a jam is even worse depending on the severity

[thedaledoe]

It wont be long till the military rifles have a round count either on the weapon itself or on some HUD that the soldier can see.

NO wonder I kick your ass all the time jordan. I reload in that game whenever I get below half a mag unless im in the middle of a shoot out.. Cuz you never know when you are gonna need the other 15 rounds. Well, more often than not. Thats for sure.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by thedaledoe
I reload in that game whenever I get below half a mag unless im in the middle of a shoot out.. Cuz you never know when you are gonna need the other 15 rounds. In real life, that's called a "tactical reload" and is a smart thing to do when >2/3 of your mag is left.

Much like shotgunners to continually feed their tube during engagements.

Being conscious of your ammunition situation is a very smart move! But while counting what's in your mag, remember to keep track of how many FULL mags are left. ;)

[JE3146]

not a problem in my house RJ lol...

[thedaledoe]

I have 9 fully loaded 30 round mags in my closet.. and another 1000+ rounds in the ammo can.. and thats just for the ar... so i anxiously await the day for some idiot to try and break into our house. :D

[Epinephrine]

I got a question for you RJ (or anyone who can answer). I have been reading up on the way a rifleman stands. The mag says that the stock should be above your nipple and that you should bring the gun to your head, not your head to the gun. But yet is pictures of people who I know know what they are doing (like ex-marine and current admin of SureFires supressor div. Barry Dueck and the Force Recon marines around hime) have their heads lowered somewhat. I guess its ok to lower your head some?

Also, about the stock position, they had the gun out from their body in almost a perfect T, but I been kinda slanted, more of a V shape. Is it vitally important to have the gun out as straight as possible from your body even if its uncomfortable? Some of the pictures of troops I have seen are slanted like me so is there a right and wrong way or can you do it any way you want?

I stand like the guy with the shotgun in one of your pics. Is that a proper rifleman postition or just some rendition by an artist that dosent know a damn thing about combat?

[Epinephrine]

Well, you know how I said I use the high ready cuz the low ready is pointless, well I have been using the low ready all along!

I thought the low ready was like the picture of the Dev Group operator with his M4 down accross his chest while the high ready was like the man with the Benelli M1 and the guys with MP5A5's.

Turns out I have been training like guys with the MP5's and the Shotty! Stupid Me!:rolleyes: :lol:

[RJ Shooter]

Epi, the shotgun pic (as seen below) is a good low (mid) ready stance. Notice his head almost in the position in needs to be when shooting.

http://www.dickkramer.com/images/2901.jpg

When he brings the shotgun up to bear, his head is still like the guy in the front of this stack. It takes only milliseconds to bring the weapon from low-ready to on target! ;)

http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2300_02.jpg

When you're moving, you are not standing fully erect. This accomplishes a few things. It makes your profile smaller and makes you less of a target. And it makes the arc of movement from low-ready to on target, smaller. This results in an extremely quick engagement...

Hope this helps.

[RJ Shooter]

Also, the gun is straight out when there is an immediate threat. Low ready is a "ready" stance, not an engagement stance.

If I knew there was a bad guy in the house, the weapon would be at eye level (like the guy in the front of the stack above) as I go through the house!!!!!

Hope that helps...

[Epinephrine]

Cool. I guess it counts for something that I know what Im doing even though I dont know the names of the stances! At least I wont be totaly fucked if someone breaks in! :D

Does it matter where you stick the stock? I stick it above the nipple next to my neck like I have read in books and seen in pictures, but I have also seen people stick it in the pocket of their shoulder like you would in a high power shoot. Are these guys fucking up, or can you stick the stock in the pocket of your shoulder?

[RJ Shooter]

I hate it in the pocket. They used to teach resting it in the pocket in the military. But they have seemed to evolve a little.

When not engaging, the stock lays flat on my chest, above my nipple...

[thedaledoe]

My stock doesnt like to be anywhere other then the pocket of my shoulder. Its not ver comfy to have it on my chest.. and my massive pecks like to push it off the side..... lol.. or is it the fat on top of my massive pecks.. lol.... either way..

[Epinephrine]

So pretty much up to personal preference?

Does my nose need to be up against the charging handle to have a proper cheeck weld or can it be farther back? When I pull my gun up my nose is about 1-1.5" from the charging handle. Is that proper or too far back?

Damn, you would think holding a gun would be a piece of cake!:rolleyes:

[RJ Shooter]

The military teaches nose to charging handle for uniformity (same sight picture every time). I usually try to do that (it comes naturally after years of practice), but it's difficult to keep it that close with a collapsable stock. So, it's all dependant on the type of AR!

When I use an A2, it always goes there. But carbines are different...

If you can usually keep the same sight picture when you pull the weapon up, you'll be just fine! :)

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
Good point! I don't use them, but those with tactical latches will appreciate them at that point! ;)


Do you ever have any issues with the tactical latch snagging on clothing or making carry uncomfortable?

[RJ Shooter]

...that's why I don't use them! ;)

[Epinephrine]

What is the proper way to pull the trigger?

I always ride the thing out and never take my finger off of it (unless im not shooting-DUH) and try to be as smooth but fast as possible.

Last night I was watching Shooting Gallery on the Outdoor Channel and Tod Jarret (Para Ordinance competition shooter) was on saying that to be fast and accurate you should take your finger OFF the trigger after every shot and then pull again smoothly.

TO me that sounds like it would be slower (and for me on the range it is) but is that how you should do it or what?

[RJ Shooter]

The only time my finger comes off the trigger, is when I am no longer firing. I'm not understanding his logic on that one. But it's all personal preference.

:dunno:

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by Epinephrine
What is the proper way to pull the trigger?

I always ride the thing out and never take my finger off of it (unless im not shooting-DUH) and try to be as smooth but fast as possible.

Last night I was watching Shooting Gallery on the Outdoor Channel and Tod Jarret (Para Ordinance competition shooter) was on saying that to be fast and accurate you should take your finger OFF the trigger after every shot and then pull again smoothly.

TO me that sounds like it would be slower (and for me on the range it is) but is that how you should do it or what?


Taking your finger off of the trigger only works well with an ultra light trigger, ultra short trigger pull. Usually in the hands of an exceptional shooter.

[Epinephrine]

THat what I thought. I have never handled a Para 1911 but they look like they have a 4lb DOA pull so I guess thats why he does that.

[Round Brown]

Here are some text book answer's that the army teaches to soldiers during basic combat training.


Rifle Butt Position:

The butt of the rifle is placed in the pocket of the firing shoulder because this reduces the effect of recoil and helps ensure a steady position.

Cheek-to-Stock Weld:

The stock weld should provide a natural line of sight through the center of the rear sight aperture to the front sight post and on to the target. The firer's neck should be relaxed, allowing his cheek to fall naturally onto the stock. Through dry-fire training, the soldier practices this position until he assumes the same cheek-to-stock weld each time he assumes a given position, which provides consistency in aiming. Proper eye relief is obtained when a soldier establishes a good cheek-to-stock weld. A small change in eye relief normally occurs each time that the firer assumes a different firing position. The soldier should begin by trying to touch the charging handle with his nose when assuming a firing position. This will aid the soldier in maintaining the same cheek-to-stock weld hold each time the weapon is aimed. The soldier should be mindful of how the nose touches the charging handle and should be consistent when doing so. This should be critiqued and reinforced during dry-fire training.

Trigger Squeeze:

A novice firer can learn to place the rifle in a steady position and to correctly aim at the target if he follows the basic principles. If the trigger is not properly squeezed, the rifle will be misaligned with the target at the moment of firing.

Trigger Finger:

The trigger finger (index finger on the firing hand) is placed on the trigger between the first joint and the tip of the finger (not the extreme end) and adjusted depending on hand size, grip, and so on. The trigger finger must squeeze the trigger to the rear so the hammer falls without disturbing the lay of the rifle. When a live round is fired, it is difficult to see what effect trigger pull had on the lay of the rifle. It is important to experiment with many finger positions during dry-fire training to ensure the hammer is falling with little disturbance to the aiming process.

(a) As the firer's skills increase with practice, he needs less time spent on trigger squeeze. Novice firers can take five seconds to perform an adequate trigger squeeze, but, as skills improve, he can squeeze the trigger in a second or less. The proper trigger squeeze should start with slight pressure on the trigger during the initial aiming process. The firer applies more pressure after the front sight post is steady on the target and he is holding his breath.

(b) The coach/trainer observes the trigger squeeze, emphasizes the correct procedure, and checks the firer's applied pressure. He places his finger on the trigger and has the firer squeeze the trigger by applying pressure to the coach/trainer's finger. The coach/trainer ensures that the firer squeezes straight to the rear on the trigger avoiding a left or right twisting movement. The coach/trainer observes that the firer follows through and holds the trigger to the rear for approximately one second after the round has been fired. A steady position reduces disturbance of the rifle during trigger squeeze.

(c) Wobble area is the movement of the front sight around the aiming point when the rifle is in the steadiest position. From an unsupported position, the firer experiences a greater wobble area than from a supported position. If the front sight strays from the target during the firing process, pressure on the trigger should be held constant and resumed as soon as sighting is corrected. The position must provide for the smallest possible wobble area. From a supported position, there should be minimal wobble area and little reason to detect movement. If movement of the rifle causes the front sight to leave the target, more practice is needed. The firer should never try to quickly squeeze the trigger while the sight is on the target. The best firing performance results when the trigger is squeezed continuously, and the rifle is fired without disturbing its lay.

[Round Brown]

Originally posted by thedaledoe
How exactly do you practice unjamming an AR? Do you take a spent shell and try and fix it so it stove pipes and mess with it? Or do you just go through an order of things to check?

I ask this question to soldiers all the time, "why do you apply immediate action to correct a malfunction on your rifle?" Usually, all the responses were right, except for the most obvious one. You apply the acronym SPORTS (Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot) for immediate action because you don't know exactly why your weapon stopped firing. It's important that you do go through the steps because it could be something as silly as the bolt got stuck to the rear and won't go forward after locking and loading. Any AR owner will say, "Slap up on the magazine." Why, because the bolt will go forward after you apply the 1st step. This just means that in most cases your magazine is not seated properly or the chamber is dirty and not lubed properly.

[Epinephrine]

Cool. I have been doing right stuff all along.

[HAGIKILLER]

RJ, Were you military, law enforcement or do you teach shooting classes?
I agree with everything you said. Here where shit hits the fan in iraq the things you speak of are what we use. Carry your weapon at the low ready, draw your weapon to your head, quick allignment and tactical reloads are all to familiar phrases. I live in washington and when I return I would love to give a few classes on shooting and deploying an ar15 style weapon effectively. I dont want to get into a pissing contest with anyone but try manuvering through an unlit house with your weapon at the high ready. Not a tactical advantage. Correcting a malfunction, SPORTS, Slap the magazine, Pull the charging handle, Observe what comes out of the chamber, Release the charging handle, Tap the forward assist and Squeez the trigger. I am happy to answer any questions people may have.
thanks.

Shit, Did not see your post Drill Sgt. Infantry leads the way!

[Epinephrine]

I dont want to get into a pissing contest with anyone but try manuvering through an unlit house with your weapon at the high ready. Not a tactical advantage.

Dont worry about getting in a pissing contest, I was wrong. I thought the low ready was whe nyou have it sitting across your chest with your hands in position and thought the high ready was when it was up and your sights were just below your line of sight like in those drawings RJ posted.


as far as I know RJ wasnt in the military but his brother-in-law is. RJ just reads everything he can find.


RJ, where do you find all this tactics stuff? I by SWAT, G&A for Law Enforcement, etc and they very rarely cover tactics, mostly just gun reviews.

I dont know of any good books out there since there are as many fake "experts" as there are real ones and I dont wanna get myself killed trying to save myself (god forebid) while using faulty tactics.

[RJ Shooter]

RJ, Were you military, law enforcement or do you teach shooting classes?No, physical security management for over a decade, and currently a security consultant on the side of my current career. I am Police Acadamy trained. A member of ASIS. And have worked closely with every facet of LE, including US Marshalls, FBI, Secret Service (provided security for three presidential campaigns (Bush Sr., Clinton & Dole), etc.

And by the way, the DS above is my Brother! ;) HOOOAH!

RJ, where do you find all this tactics stuff? I by SWAT, G&A for Law Enforcement, etc and they very rarely cover tactics, mostly just gun reviews.Epi, my tactics come from my training, not books. The only "tactic" books I have ever read is In The Gravest Extreme and a few others by Masaad Ayoob. I can't even remember his long-gun techniques, but I think he advocates low ready.

I do however, like his pistol techniques. He uses martial arts in his thinking, which I relate to.

And yes, my BIL is also in the Army. He's in a command position (O-3) in Iraq right now.

[fm23-10]

Most vicious "training" I've ever done was hunt those bastard bunnies in southern Idaho...

For that I'd carry in what I called the "low-ready"--buttstock near the shoulder, muzzle down and across my torso/abdomen, often supported by the ALICE ammo pouch. (We'd do this in full regalia, face paint and all)

Then, when I/we saw the hordes of bloodthirsty and incredibly violent bunnies, we'd keep moving and go to "high ready"--weapon shouldered, muzzle pointed toward the contact (but down slightly, perhaps 30-45 degrees down) and eyes aligned with the gunsights. When Mr. Bunny decided to bolt, it was simple movement to raise the weapon, get a sight picture (both eyes open, range was often less than 30 yards) and blast until a gentle pink mist confirmed a kill.

On jams--no matter what it is, tip the weapon so the problem falls out of the chamber area and rack the bolt, fire; if jam continues, reload; a third jam, go to sidearm. Order of this is subject to the tactical situation....Mountain Dew cans especially are known for "massed-can-wave" attacks, and must be dealt with promptly or they will get the better of you.

[5.56NATO]

Butt to shoulder, covering your arc.

[rick314]

I disagree with you RJ
There is a time to have it low ready and a time to have it at high ready.

I/we were taught the low ready for patrolling but the point man at times would be at high ready for various field conditions.
Also Spetnaz teaches both. The logic of high ready is that the butt is in the shoulder and the support elbow is resting against the body but supporting the weapon at the normal position on the handguards
almost like this
http://www.combat2000shop.com/combat2000/gear/cloth/akcloth/image/russian_spetsnaz_large.jpg
but the buttstock locked into the shoulder and the rifle more horizontal.
Logic being the weapon can be brought to bear faster because your letting gravity pull it down and not pushing the weapon up which at stressful times one will overshoot the poa at target. By letting the fall to target, it is easier to stop the muzzle at target.
Try it.
I know, I know you have mucho pics of high speed, low drag, teflon coated folks in the lwo ready and for urban enviros and in stacks and even sometimes while on patrol, that is the safest and fastest way to target, but in the field, whilst on patrol, I challenge you to walk tactically over uneven terrain (at night) all tensed up and miles to go with your shoulder hunched and focused on sounds and trusting the periphery for movement......
This is what we were taught in RIP and have seen it in foriegn armies as well.


Let me dump this before I lose it
http://www.erwinspages.bewoner.antwerpen.be/epc/epcabout/paul2.jpg
http://www.moviebadgirls.com/outimage/spetsnaz.jpg

[RJ Shooter]

You're right Rick! All of my training is in urban/room to room, but never in a stack. And sho nuff, there is a time for high ready. Especially when crouched behind concealment or a barricade of some sort.

As for barrel overtravel, I personally have much less overswing when coming up from the low-ready (simple 45 degree movement), while bringing my head down to the sights. In my experience, which is limited in the field, coming down from high ready has gravity as a disadvantage. Barrel weight and Isaac Newton's theory cause my barrels to dip downward a little too much.

Just like in handgun training on multiple targets, the movement should be eye to target first, followed by sights to target. If you move both in conjunction with each other, you will ALWAYS over-swing your intended target. With rifles, I think the same applies (with me at least) that my eyes are on target, and the weapon/sights simply come up to that point of focus. With high ready, you lose your target for a very brief second as the rifle passes your line of sight...

Then again, this is just my theory. ;) :p

[Me and My Rifle]

First let me give you all a little background on myself so you understand the basis for my opinions. I am a SWAT trained Police Officer in North Carolina as well as a member of the 19th Special Forces Group. I fought in Iraq from the onset of the war with 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment. This is one of the three infantry brigades of the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, NC. I have over 150 real world entries, from As Somawah, Al Diwaniah, Felluja, and Baghdad to here in North Carolina serving high risk warrants. I do not tell you all this to impress you, but to allow you to understand that the opinions I am about to state are not those of a "Rubber Knifer" with 25 entries into his local shooting range's kill house. Guys I did this stuff for real and I have nothing to prove. If what I tell you keeps one of you safe and inturn helps you pass on good skills to the next generation, that is all I can ask for.

Okay, I have heard a lot of you mention different techniques you have tried and liked and things you have seen and were unsure about. This is great, the interest in better shooting is the most important part of all. All of this really makes no difference when you walk onto the two way shooting range. When you hear that first crack over your head, that is when everything goes right out the window, and when it is CQB, you never even had time to hear the crack.

Lets address a few things and then I will give you all some time to respond and if you like ask more questions.
- Nose to the charging handle: this is the standard military training and works with both A2 and collapseable stocks. The reason is that this is an easy way of repeating the same sight picture and alignment under stress. Use what works for you, but the Army has trained a lot of young men to shoot and survive. I use this technique with my AR's, I currently have three.

- Buttstock placement: current SWAT training uses a new long gun technique that I like a lot. This is accomplished by placing the toe of the stock (in the case of collapseable stocks, the new six position, ribbed style works better) in the pocket at the shoulder joint. From a LOW-READY position, you roll the weapon up to eye level, notice the weapon comes to your eyes not the other way. If you shoot both eyes open as you should for CQB, this will bring the sights up perfectly infront of your eyes and the alignment is dead on which allows for faster and more precise reactive shooting which is 99% of what a civilian protecting thier home will be doing. Bye-the-way, this technique is for all long guns not just AR's.

- Training: remember you train how you fight and you fight how you train. It is very hard for many people to train in the environment they will most likely be shooting in but getting involved with local clubs and organizations such as IDPA can help. Find a range with a kill house and utilize it. That training is wonderful and very beneficial. Be reasonable though, not every situation can be planned out and prepared for. Life is unpredictable so maintain proficiency and train in as many different environments as you can, light or dark, sitting or standing, gun in hand and otherwise. Try it all and see where you are weakest and concentrate on those areas.

I would love to tell you all more. Ask me some questions and I will reply whenever I can and if I do not know an answer I am around enough guys that do to get it for you. Shoot straight.

[rick314]

First let me give you all a little background on myself so you understand the basis for my opinions. I am a SWAT trained Police Officer in North Carolina as well as a member of the 19th Special Forces Group. I fought in Iraq from the onset of the war with 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment. This is one of the three infantry brigades of the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, NC. I have over 150 real world entries, from As Somawah, Al Diwaniah, Felluja, and Baghdad to here in North Carolina serving high risk warrants. I do not tell you all this to impress you, but to allow you to understand that the opinions I am about to state are not those of a "Rubber Knifer" with 25 entries into his local shooting range's kill house. Guys I did this stuff for real and I have nothing to prove. If what I tell you keeps one of you safe and inturn helps you pass on good skills to the next generation, that is all I can ask for.


been to 14 countries, three continents and Served with the 2/75 Rangers.
Found myself "entering" three countries and walking out of two.
Trained with 6 foriegn armies and played opfor for those really cool schools in panama.
Hell, even trained with rubber knives. Been stabbed 6 inches into the liver, rpg exploded above me in a tree and sent a branch my way, which lodged itself in the backside of my left kidney.

I do believe there are others here that might have training and real world "OH SHITZ". 325th? Played with them too.
Trained with LAPD SWAT and Metro D platoons instructors.
Recently had the pleasure of Jeff Gonzalez`s (SEAL and BUDS instructor with real world shitz) fantastic block of instruction.
Oh the resume keeps going but I thought we were talking about training at home. LOL
Just yanking your chain mr 82nd.LOL
Thanks for the input and stay safe and frosty

[Me and My Rifle]

The point of my statement was not to tout my own deeds, to be honest I don't care if anyone knows what I have done. The point was to offer good, and accurate information about training for a real world encounter from a civilian aspect as you can see below. Nice resumee, though. Always good to know a fellow paratrooper and door kicker. By the way, if you wish to refute any of my info. drop me a line and I will tell you more.

- Training: remember you train how you fight and you fight how you train. It is very hard for many people to train in the environment they will most likely be shooting in but getting involved with local clubs and organizations such as IDPA can help. Find a range with a kill house and utilize it. That training is wonderful and very beneficial. Be reasonable though, not every situation can be planned out and prepared for. Life is unpredictable so maintain proficiency and train in as many different environments as you can, light or dark, sitting or standing, gun in hand and otherwise. Try it all and see where you are weakest and concentrate on those areas.

[rick314]

No reason to refute, you seem like you`ve been around.

I`m gonna........sorta advice against IDPA.
Well, it`s better than than the square range and no focus to range time and it does help with some basic skills. But I didn`t get alot of pistol training in the army, just rudimen`try type shit.
Got back here and started into IPSC, as there was no IDPA or anything else.
IPSC then was reqalistic and as it evolved into a race track, I still stayed with production type pistols using full power loads. Good enough to win a couple of pistols and a bunch of assorted shit......but
As I got into pistol training, more and more I would find my accuracy below that of others. I was quick and on target but when it came time for hostage scenarios and tight work, I found my IPSC target left me shooting for large targets instead of presicion work.
Eventually I was found lacking at one inch circles at various distances, my IPSC time had ingrained in me quickness and I found it hard to do these particular evolutions. I have since found a IPSC and Steel Challenge combination that incorps the running of IPSC and the accuracy of Steel Challenge, a small group of folks here called Steel Madness.
The IDPA courses round here focus way too much on rules for engagement. Fer instance which targets have to negotiated first and in what order.
Every time they are telling me the order of targets I ask. What if this target see`s me hitting his bud and he now is angrier than target number two or every game plan goes to hell when the first bullet is launched.
Plus it is so popular that it takes almost an hour per stage to get to shoot 20-30 bullets.
I find taking quality classes teaches me to have quality time when on range or in the middle of the Mojave.
I find I have to unlearn some aspects of competitive shooting

[RJ Shooter]

M&MR, welcome to GunsNet!!!!

:welcome:

I know some gents from 19th SFG...They're Ohioans though...

[Me and My Rifle]

Yeah, RJ a lot of 19th Group is from Ohio. I am in North Carolina now, but I go to training in West Virginia. It is worth the drive to be in a unit that is so good. We may even know some of the same crowd. Thank you for the welcome. I have been reading at Gunsnet for a while, but I never really found a thread that I liked or had all that much to offer until I saw this one. Firearms training is my thing. I have passion for it and I strive to be the very best.

Rick, I agree with what you say regarding the organizational shooting/competitive shooting situation. I have to remember that my club is more tactically oriented. We believe in training to fight and that is the way we do it, which means there is no exactly right answer. I never was much into pistol until I got invoved with Law Enforcement. Now I love my handguns. I personally have a thing for Glocks, but they just aren't sexy enough, you know. I still love the look and feel of a 1911.

[USMCBurner]

Well ive read what all of you have had to say and one thing is obvious.......little or no military or real world experience. Now before you all jump down my throat, its not a bad thing it just means Learn + Practice + Practice + Practice = More Practice. The low ready stance is correct, you can bring up your weapon very quickly and it will point in what ever direction you turn. As for using it in my own home NOT ! I will always first grab my XD9 and tac light.......if you cant see you cant get proper target aquisition. Also being a Martial Artist myself it is known that a man can stab you before you can draw and shoot if the distance is less than 17 ft. Anyway thats my .02$. Keep up the training for any situation and try using airsoft weapons for training

[Epinephrine]

:bump:

[recon]

:akpistol:

[saleen]

Good point about the tactical light USMC, many forget that important accessory. As for the pistol being my first choice? I still prefer the AR.....even in a household scenario.

Pistol to fight to the shotgun
Shotgun to fight to the rifle

Fuck it, start with the rifle :D


Oh, and the distance for the knife wielder has been extended to 21 feet in the past few years, and that is assuming your weapon is holstered and you're already well on your way to "red".


Saleen

[recon]

Me I have my Glock-19. No safties to fumble with!

[saleen]

Holy thread resurrection Batman! :D


Saleen