Lasers, lights, and OEG/red dots

[fm23-10]

I bought one of those $20 lasers from CTD, and while it was fun in the house when mounted on an AK and pointing and "shooting" at different targets, when I took it outside I found it had ZERO visibility during the daylight, and minimal during overcast (especially when aimed at flat black items (ie, tires) and other darkish objects)...

At night the dot could be seen for 300+ yards, but even close up the dot wasn't really big enough to be useful (I found myself spending a few seconds trying to see the little 1/8" dot; often it would "hide" among the folds of clothing the "target" was wearing)

So I got to thinking...

Wouldn't it be better to just mount a flashlight (2AA maglite or a "starfire" type light) with a pressure switch? Or just turn the light on and go in blazing?

And what about those see-through sights, both the OEG (non-see-through; you look at the target with both eyes, and they self-adjust for movement, "lead time" etc. often used for bird hunting) and the see-through red-dots"? I had the chance to look through a red-dot in the field the other day, and can't say I was too impressed with it (mounted on a CAR15) It didn't allow for a proper cheek-weld and didn't seem bright enough to attract the eye...I had to "look" around for it before seeing it. Also it seemed to have a blind spot which made the crosshairs disappear just as I got into position. If I changed my head's angle just a bit, the crosshairs came back but then they'd go away again just as easily.

What I would like are comments from those who have used any of these items about their true usefulness--or are they essentially "gadgets" that are best left on weapons intended to be used by "Bubbas"?

Lasers

Flashlights

Scopes (4x, 3x-9x, etc)

Red-dots

thanks...

[fm23-10]

Ok guys don't get all sneaky on me...I know there are full-time professional types here, what kind of equipment do you use, or perhaps most importantly, do you NOT use in your line(s) of work? And why/why not?

Is having a mounted flashlight really considered a lethal tool (for you, not the BG)? Is a laser "bad"?

[thedaledoe]

I think the fact that your laser was $20 is all that needs to be said. There is a reason they are that cheap. Cuz they suck. Good laser sights are much more expensive. But Im no authority on them so I couldnt tell you where to look.

[5.56NATO]

Save up and get some real night vision gear.

[fm23-10]

Save up and get some real night vision gear.

But without any decent responses describing "good" stuff -v- "junk" I"m not willing to shell out $3000 for an NVD.

By "good" and "junk" I'm not talking about the cost--duh I know $20 buys a low-end laser; it's the idea of a laser AT ALL that I'm interested in.

Are lasers "useful"? Never mind the cost...are they useful? (That's one reason why I'm asking professionals about it; they don't buy these trinkets, they're issued them, and they actually USE them against hostiles) It seems to me in a darkened room (perhaps with dust from flash-bangs) a laser would simply provide the BG with your location...therefore, laser = bad. IR would be better (I would think) but that requires an NVD on your head (limiting peripheral vision) Other than those situations, are lasers "good"?

Are flashlights "useful"? Sure, maybe an LEO/MilOp has one on his weapon...but is it actually turned on, or is it just a very bright "target indicator"?

Are red dots "useful"? I had one on a shotgun (Mossberg 500, decked out with sidesaddle, pistol grips, etc) but it seemed I always forgot to turn it on prior to engaging multiple (paper/pumpkin) targets...even when it was on, I seemed to look straight through it, going by "feel" more than the dot. (I hit more often that way, btw)

The sidesaddle, on the other hand, is EXTREMELY WORTH IT. Get one if you have a shotgun, it adds immensely to the usability of the weapon...as is the rear pistol grip (full stocked weapon). The front PG didn't really add to the practical aspects (ie, the pump action)

[Epinephrine]

The only time I have ever seen a professional use a laser on a weapon are cops with the Crimson Trace laser graips on their pistols. They do provide a quicker target picture when in the heat of battle but are by no means an excuse not to learn to use your irons.

Flashlights are very useful if used properly. First off, you never turn it on and leave it on, you strobe them, otherwise they turn YOU into a target. If you stobe for a half second, move, then strobe again, this is very disconcerting to the enemy cuz they never knw exactly where you are. Second, they can also be used as a flash bang except there is no bang. 65 lumens from a pistol light is enought to make you turn your head, 120 lumens from a rifle weaponlight will make you want to cut your eyes out. There is no way you will be able to react to the threat behind the light. But like I said, if you dont read and learn the art weaponlight craft (nifty new waord huh?), you will turn your own ass into the target.

Now are you talking red dots as in those plastic airgun sights that makes it look like a dot is on target or more along the lines of Aimpoints and EOTechs?

Real red dots are your best friend in CQB. They allow you to keep both eyes open while shooting so you have a wider FOV and they are much easier to learn on than irons. Quality electric red dots and even fiber optic/tritium ones (Trijicon Tri Power) have adjustable dot intensities and will never wash out unless you are looking directly into the sun or a very bright light.

[fm23-10]

Thank you Epinephrine! That's the kind of info I want (and more if anyone wants to add!)

Now are you talking red dots as in those plastic airgun sights that makes it look like a dot is on target or more along the lines of Aimpoints and EOTechs?

I'm not familiar with any brand names...there are two types that I've seen:

1. An "occluded eye gunsight"; this is a tube that you cannot see through, but if you look into it you see a red dot. The idea is that you look at the target with both eyes, the eye behind the sight (the "occluded" one) sees only the red dot, and the other eye sees the target. Your brain puts them together, and you "see" the target with a red dot on it.

2. A "see-through" sight; this is a tube with glass on both ends, so you can see through it. Typically it does not magnify, it just allows you to see through and it superimposes the red dot while you look through it.

Here's a link to something that looks like it has potential...optic sight (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=159700)

[thedaledoe]

I wouldnt be caught dead with a frickin cyborg accesory like that. Looks like something for a lazy ass that cant hold his weapon if front of him.. I guess it could be something that was a predecesor to the land warrior system.. but geez.. that is frickin wierd looking. :eek:

[Epinephrine]

:rotflmao: That thing is scary.

Occular sights could be used, but I havent seen any built specifically for combat, so I wouldnt trust my ass to one.

I gtg, but I will post pics of some of the trusted red dots when I come back.

[RJ Shooter]

Visible lasers are good only for a couple of things.

One is as a backup reference when re-zeroing your weapon at a certain range.

Two is as a spray and pray toy that allows you to illuminate your intended target when firing from the hip. ( :rolleyes: )

Three is as an "intimidator" for LEOs and others to use to frighten their targets into submission. This is not a lie, nor is it silly. There have been documented cases where a criminal gave up when the dot lit up their chests. ;) This is where LaserMax and Crimson Trace get popular LEO support. I've met the CT owner at a National Association of Sheriffs' show. Nice guy!!!

I see no real use for one on any weapon I currently have. Lasers are not usually used with a momentary burst, so for their intended use, they need to be on. This also telegraphs your position, etc.

[Epinephrine]

Unless you get an IR laser unit from SureFire that costs $650, then the $200 flashlight housing to use it. I see not point of lasers on anything but handguns, and only then for Reason C. Red dots are enough of a laser on long guns, and dont broadcast your position, and dont cost as much (mostly)!

[fm23-10]

I see not point of lasers on anything but handguns...

*visions of a Vehix commercial*

Ah, but it's so cool!!

;)