Saiga .410 Conversion/Is it Leagal?

[TMG]

Is it leagal to convert a Saiga .410 to original Pistol Grip Configuration? If so suppose it had the following US Parts installed, Pistol Grip, Buttstock, Fire Controll Group,( relocated trigger guard with 5mm allen head bolt at rear which hides underneath pistol grip)(hole has to be cut for pistol grip nut(block) also hides under pistol grip). I have just one big Question. These guns have an additional "floating" piston in front of what is usually the piston. Do I have to change the "Piston" which is connected to the carrier becuase it is no longer a piston but has now become an OP Rod? In other words this gun has 2 pistons, or an OP Rod and 1 piston, or the old piston doesn't count. Can anybody help me with this? TMG

[integratedj]

Replace the FCG and use US stock and pgrip and there is no doubt it is legal. You need 4 parts for a non threaded barrel, and 5 for a threaded barrel like my S12. It is very easy, and I have my conversion times down to about 2.5 hours give or take a little depending on how hard the welds are, and if I am using a new trigger gaurd or not.
It is a lot easier than it seems at first.

That is all you need to do. You do not need to change anything on the gas system.

IJ

[NSingle]

I think parts count is 5 and 6 , based on muzzle break, might be wrong, but on 7.62x39 AK count is 5 & 6, But does no ban do away with this ? No high cap mag aval for Saiga shotgun 12G ,20G ,& 410G , 5 round max mag?

[DYI]

Parts counts on saiga are less than regular AK clones. ATF list is shorter for Saiga shotguns like integrated said. The ban did not null this law, your rifle/shotgun must still be of "domestic manufacture".

And yes hi-caps are available - check out saiga-12.com

[AKATTACK]

Here's the link to a letter that was received by Wes at Soupbowl Enterprises. He had inquired about the parts count of imported firearms. Refer to weapon "H" on the right-hand column for the Saiga shotgun. Notice in the letter that the parts are listed as if the firearm is in it's "imported" configuration, while in the table below the letter, Wes has shown the parts count after the firearm has been converted to pistol grip configuration, therefor increasing the total parts count by one. For some reason, B.A.T.F.E. didn't consider the trunions a part on the Saiga shotguns. I have no idea why, but I'm not going to argue!! If you are planning on converting your shotgun, I believe it is a good idea to save this letter and then print a few copies. Now I'll shutup and post the link: http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html. Hope this helps-AKATTACK.

[TMG]

Thanks , I printed out the letter.. However I don,t think the letter would save my butt in a court of law. The .410 is finished. Here are the Foreign Parts ; muzzle attachment, barrel, piston (new floating type), fore end, carrier, bolt, magbody, follower, receiver and TRUNION. (You see the guy who wrote the letter was wrong. The LAW says trunions count.) Here are my U.S. Parts , pistol grip, buttstock, floor plates (made em myself), fire control group. and I attached a U.S. piston to the carrier because its possible that this is an [op rod] in this firearm. It's a real fun shotgun and conversation peice. The letter does show me that they reguard these shotguns the same way they do rifles more or less and thats very important. I was worried they might have snuck in some special clause for them or who knows what thankyou TMG

[AKATTACK]

That letter was written by Edward Owen, from the B.A.T.F.E. firearms technology branch. I have faith in his/their interpretation of what is considered the correct parts count, and I believe that this letter would lend some credit. I really don't believe that it was necessary to change the piston/bolt carrier setup. AKATTACK

[TMG]

An ATF letter is nothing but freindly advise offered with the best of intentions. It means nothing in court except as a mitigating circumstance at the sentencing phase. You are still responsible to read and correctly interpret the Law ("ignorance of the law is no exception to the law"). In this ATF letter the guy doesn't say there is no trounion, he just forgets to list one. As I read this chart there is no SEAR listed which the .410 definitely has and it is not part of the trigger. Muzzle attachments and pistol grips the chart may be right or wrong about but it's dead wrong concerning the .410 I purchased. So that is 4 errors relative to my fire arm. I'm not calling anybody names here. I'm just pointing out that its easy to make ommisions when translating leagal technicalities into English. I 've been fortunate enough to observe first hand the results of ATF misenterpretation of Law. I got to be Me verses The United States, and I learned allot. I won , They lost. The NRA payed my bill. Even educated people make mistakes . TMG

[BigAl]

I count the saiga parts the same as any other AK, 5-6 depending on your muzzle device. a threaded barrel doesn't mean squat, i keep the barrel nut on my 410. i'm going for FCG, piston, pistol grip. i have a romy folder for mine. when my 10 rounders come in, i'll post some pics...

[TMG]

Where do you get 10 round .410 mags? TMG

[integratedj]

Unless you have an extremely rare 410, then you do not have a sear in your FCG, just hammer, trigger and diconnector, no sear.

There are mags on ebay if you have enough KY to take the pain that goes with them, and then there are some guys in Russia and Europe that will send them into you for a little cheaper. They can be found ove3r at Saiga12.com's forums.
IJ

[BigAl]

Gunbroker .....from Russia with love.......they are running about $100+for one in the USA, 2 for $120 from Russia...


Should be getting mine next week....:) shipped on the 18th...:)

[TMG]

Prior to alterations in the Saiga .410 , the sear is the part that lets go of the hammer. It used to be a trigger/sear combination part, now it's just a sear. It's pushed by a fulcrum which is pushed by the trigger. Picture the sear in a 1911 .45 Auto, same thing.( for pushed substitute actuated? or impelled?) TMG

[Cobra76 two]

I for one would like to see some proof that what you say is true. Otherwise the "part that lets the hammer go" is the disconnector, there is no sear, and it's perfectly legal to convert a Saiga 410 to PG using these US made parts:
1. hammer
2. disconnector
3. trigger
4. buttstock
5. pistol grip
Actually the hammer is let go by the hook or hooks on the trigger. The disconnector releases it to the trigger first. The disconnector is there to catch the hammer if you still have the trigger squeezed after firing. The sear is a part of the true AK FCG and is mounted on a third axis pin which you do not have and controls the timing of when the hammer is released so that it does not fall on an open chamber. If you want to learn about Saigas go to Saiga12.com where there is a wealth of information on the subject.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=2042&pid=16009&st=0&#entry16009

[TMG]

To clarify.....Notice that I said "prior to alterations". The trigger and sear are seperate. The sear releases the hammer to strike the firing pin. It used to be a trigger sear combo part which the Russians made into a sear. The trigger is not attached to it. It's 2 inches away.The disconector is not attached to it either.When you do the convertion you remove it and disguard it, but until then it is a sear.The ATF letter attempts to describe the .410 before alterations. Thats why I'm talking about something that doesn't exist after alterations. TMG

PS Thanks for the web site. TMG

[integratedj]

Ok, so you're talking about that BS trigger linkage that they put in there to move the trigger back. I got ya, not really a Sear as they are in the AK, more of a monkey compliance part.
If it was counted as a foreign part and you remove it, then you are good to go.
IJ