Committing optical heresy

[jmehrten]

OK- I am somewhat of a glass snob, but I don't see why a rugged, no magnification red dot sight needs to cost $300 + when good rugged fixed power scopes are going for less than $200 with lighted reticles, and you can get a lot of the tough as anvils Russian stuff for less than $100 :rant:

OK now that the ranting is over, does anybody have any experience with or opinions on the Japanese Aimpiont clones available through Nightvisionweb or the the new Mueller red dot? I am interested in factual observations and experience rather than denigration 'cause it doesn't have a brand name.

Any takers?

[JE3146]

I've seen and used a Hakko Tacpoint. I've seen and looked through an Aimpoint. I noticed no difference other than the quality of the brightness knob. The Tacpoint's knob seemed a little more fragile. Still looked great, and worked great. Only time I'd buy an Aimpoint over a tacpoint would be if it's going on a rifle that I absolutely needed confidence in. Aimpoints are put to the test daily by our soldiers in harms way. Tacpoints are abused to prove they're just as durable. Both withstand the abuse just fine, but when it comes down to it, I'd trust my life with an Aimpoint over a Tacpoint. For general use, I'd use a Tacpoint over an Aimpoint.

It's easy to become a glass snob. I own an ACOG and ever since, I haven't looked at anything optic related under 300$ with intent. Clarity of the Trijicons are just too nice. I'll prolly get another eventually.

[Epinephrine]

The reason that Aimpoints, EOTechs, and the like cost more is because they have to perform on par or above of Military Standards set forth by the Pentagon. Optics and guns are one area that the military does not comparmise with (gun acessories are a different story sometimes) and are always quality. When you buy an Aimpoint over a Tacpoint, you arnt really paying for a name as much as you are buying a product guraneteed to work in the conditions specified no matter what. Tacpoints may be put thru a wringer like that of the Aimpoint, but until I see Tacpoints in the Sandbox and troops say they are just as good, I wont look at them. Now dont take me for one of those people that refuse to use non-name brand products. I value JE's and everyone elses opinion and have read reviews about the Tacpoint and it is a good optic. If I was just going to plink with my rifle sure, Id get one over an aimpoint, but I havnt modified my rifle for jsut plinking. I modified it to be a goto weapon in case I ever need it. I dont buy for a brand name. I buy for dead nuts reliability.

[M700Police]

[optics snob]

It's easy to charge less for something if you copy someone elses product. Think of all the money you save in not paying people to actually come up with their own design.

You get what you pay for in optics. Aimpoints are quality made optics that are incredibly durable with a battery life bordering on obscene. Tacpoints are an inexpensive imitation that may work almost as good. Personally.....I'll save my pennys a little longer to own the original.

[/optics snob]

[JE3146]

The reason that Aimpoints, EOTechs, and the like cost more is because they have to perform on par or above of Military Standards set forth by the Pentagon. Optics and guns are one area that the military does not comparmise with (gun acessories are a different story sometimes) and are always quality. When you buy an Aimpoint over a Tacpoint, you arnt really paying for a name as much as you are buying a product guraneteed to work in the conditions specified no matter what. Tacpoints may be put thru a wringer like that of the Aimpoint, but until I see Tacpoints in the Sandbox and troops say they are just as good, I wont look at them. .... I dont buy for a brand name. I buy for dead nuts reliability.


Military model Eotechs cost ~350$ with a mount. Aimpoints NOW cost upwards of 450$ plus a mount (M3 setups). Sorry, but you're paying for a name with Aimpoint. Granted it's a nice product, but it's a name. One thing I love about Eotechs is they haven't jacked prices even with goverment contracts. One of the reasons I'd buy an Eotech over an Aimpoint in a heartbeat.

But I dare you to tell me that Aimpoint or KAC doesn't jack prices because of their name, reputation and military demand. ;)

Granted there is a lot of customer service you get when you purchase a product from a reputable company, but for example 450$ for a Aimpoint Magnifier (magnified tube) with NO crosshairs and a rubberized condom outer shell aint worth it. No electronic parts or nothing. Just a tube. That is flat out messed up and Aimpoint lost all the respect from me that they ever had for that POS price gouge.

450$(Aimpoint 4x) + 100$ mount + 450$(Aimpoint 2MOA M3) + 100$ mount = 1100$

Shit I can buy a TA31F and get the best of both worlds with BAC, BDC, illuminated reticle and 4x for 900$ delivered. Aimpoint passed the point of ridiculous and people think Trijicon is a ripoff... ;)

[M700Police]

Hey.....I won't be buying an Aimpoint magnifyer either. Overpriced? Yes....I agree completely. The fact of the matter is though, no one else makes anything like it so they can charge whatever they like.

We're talking about Aimpoint red dots and Tacpoints though. They do still make CompML2's though that cost $375. I'd rather pay $375 once, than $130 possibly more than once. I'm comfortable paying extra for that security and a few nicer features. ;)

I won't comment on the EOThingie vs. Aimpoint issue or if Acog are worth the money. You want to see crazy prices.....try looking at Schmidt & Bender PMII's. :D

[JE3146]

Was referring to Epi's rants about how you're not paying for a name and how he only buys "military gear."

Often times the military does NOT use what's best. An example there is the Versa Pod on early SPR's. I love how he contradicts himself saying the military KNOWS what's best, then in another thread bashes the military for buying the "lowest bidder crap.

Sorry Ben.... Just don't agree with you're thinking :) I buy what works, and I base that judgement off of my experience with a product.

as for the EOThingies...:nanaboo: :D

I think the most ridiculous I've seen has to be the Swarovski optics, but my knowledge of high priced optics is about as limited as my financial status hehe

[M700Police]

Agreed. Can't go by what the military says and does. Have to form your own opinions based on trial and error. Uncle Sam has a different needs and follows a different set of rules....and sometimes those rules contradict each other. :)

And S&B is twice as rediculous as Swarovski. Think $2300-$2600 ;)

[JE3146]

And S&B is twice as rediculous as Swarovski. Think $2300-$2600 ;)

:thud:

[jmehrten]

thanks- I think you guys have persuaded me to go for a TacPoint. Since, as you have said, people have intentionally abused their Tacpoints and they held up, I figure that I will be just as well off with the TacPoint, as I never abuse my weapons, and I do not foresee doing HALO jumps into the ocean, and I will be far better off even if TSHTF buying a couple cases of ammo and practicing .
Yeah, I know that you get what you pay for in optics, but my contention is that an electronic dot sight is little more than a few treated pieces of clear optical glass with a lighted dot and adjusting mechanism in the x and Y axes. There is NO WAY they are as complex as building a magnifying riflescope with its precision grinds, need for ultraprecision alignment, as well as the fact that that flaws unnoticeable at 0 power are quite obvious at magnification that requires higher quality glass. I can get lighted reticle Leupolds and Burrises for what Aimpoint wants, and it just doesn't add up. What I'm saying is that a rugged, simple red dot tube sight should cost less than $200 simply because of what it ISN'T.
I spent 6 years in the Army in combat arms, thrashing about in places like Bosnia and the NTC, and my observation was that the military stuff was pretty tough and generally good, but military contracts caused vendors to jack up their prices by 20% to 50%, as they had a huge buyer with deep pockets and adoption by the military guaranteed that evey armchair commando and mall ninja had to have one, so there was no worries about pricing themselves out of the market. Think of te AR-15 for examle- "Colt" on the rifle means 20% more $, even though the non-Colt parts are functionally identical and often made by the exact manufacturer to the exact same specifications. Another observaton was that the QUALITY of the MILSPEC approved equipment wasn't necessarily better in the quality control deaprtment, but a good evolved design usually made up for manufacturing quality control lapses.