Century's latest finds: Carcanos...

[Ezra Coli]

Do they appear worth the price they are asking? Check 'em out at the bottom of the C&R rifles section of the dealer site...

Might have to try a Carcano...:)

Where can I get edjeekated about them?

[NC_Rebel]

The Carcano? Ugly rifles. Never fired, only dropped once. ;)

Ezra, this is a good site for general info:
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~glibera1/carcano/

[zouavexx]

ugly - yes

unfired - yes

(but for the addicted cruffler it fills that void in the collection, you better get at least two!):)

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Aren't these the guns that TRULY do blow up???Or am I starting another FR8 type rumour??? :D

[protector76239]

i had one about 10 years ago, the round is pretty potent kind of a cross between a 545 and a 762. i was impressed with the round. however it cocks the action on the down stroke of the bolt handle ,it is very ackward to operate. ammo is pricey and hard to find plus you have to find these stripper clip thingys. i would say the gun would be good for a beater behind the seat gun for practicality reasons. having said that it is a conversation peice , the rifle that shot jfk. for a c and r fan i say buy it and try to get the optics like on lee harveys oswald or whoever s rig. id like to see a pic if you buy it!!!

[Richard Simmons]

I've been thinking about the ones Century already had, the 8x56R. Ammo is available for these at less than the price of 7.5 MAS which is pretty steep. Haven't seen any 6.5 ammo around.

[weevil]

If I remember my history right, Lee Harvey Oswald used a Carcano to shoot Kennedy. Hmmm, I might have to look into getting one of those. :D

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Yeah and Israeli pilots were at the controls of the four terrorist planes......

[Schuetzenman]

There is some reloadable 6.5 Caracano ammo available now, supposed to be good quality brass too! Cole Distrubiting has it. They have FMJ and Soft Points.

[Ezra Coli]

I may have to get one just because its ugly. Yeah, they have an undeserved bad rap but I've never met a real gun fan who didn't realize the difference between folklore and fact when it comes to guns. Hell, more SKSs explode from poor care and treatment than any bolt gun, I think the Carcano is the recipient of Uncle Bubba's turned up nose, which of course spread to be hailed as fact. Apparently the reality is that they are pretty good rifles. Won some US national matches and such. The bad rap seems to come from sporterizers who would rather have had a mauser or enfield to hack up.

The Kennedy Carcano- this is supposed to be the one:


http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~glibera1/carcano/images/wc1303.gif

The bullets and fragments extracted from the prez and the car were 6.5mm's, we all saw what that round can do. Nasty little bugger.

Oswald trained with one and had several they say. Well, he did hit a small moving target at least a couple of times...

Anyway, I am intrigued with Italian WWII stuff, a Carcano will probably find its way to my door.

Anyone know what the difference is between what century calls the "TS" models and the regular models?

[pro2nd]

OK so what is the price on these and do they come with one of the little clips?

[Ezra Coli]

OK, after looking around on the other C&R boards, word is these are tent poles- rusted up and crap wood. I may take a chance on one if they go on special or once I hear more about them from other buyers. Would be cool to have one of these ugly guns from the boot.

[Schuetzenman]

Originally posted by Ezra Coli
OK, after looking around on the other C&R boards, word is these are tent poles- rusted up and crap wood. I may take a chance on one if they go on special or once I hear more about them from other buyers. Would be cool to have one of these ugly guns from the boot.

Not only that Ezra but they are out of the Carbine you have pictured in your post above. They only have the long rifles left in stock as of yesterday.

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

I just bought a M38 Carcano Short Rifle (Fucile Corto) - NRA Very Good condition.

This is the exact version of the Oswald rifle. Check it out:

http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2001-11-25/GUNFINDER.NET_1007049652_38.jpg

The Century guns I saw were all carbines or long rifles that all came from Yugoslavia, I believe.

All the bs about these rifles being crappy is just that.

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Variants or Types
From these basic nominal "models", several discernible variants existed: the Fucile, Fucile Corto, Moschetto Cavalleria (Cav.) and the Moschetto Truppe Speciali (T.S.).
These are the denominations most helpful for you, and which Alexander Eichener had also called "phenotypes" because they are immediately recognizable at sight.

Fucile (Long rifle):

http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc/arm104.jpg
Two long rifles exist, namely the M91 and the M91/41 (the preceding M 91/40 was a long trial rifle which was never distributed at large). They are distinguished in the following ways:
- Length
- Rear sight blades: M 91 graduated from 600 metres to 2000 metres, M 91/41 from 300 metres to 1000 metres
- Sling bars and swivels: only at the bottom for the M91, whereas the M91/41 also has side bars. A few M 91/41 may have their bottom swivels milled off after production.
- Buttplate: the M91/41 buttplate is slightly flatter and curves around the upper side of the buttstock, so the upper screw enters from above, vertically.


Fucile corto (Short rifle):

http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc/arm109.jpg
They exist in 7,35 mms (Mod. 1938 or 38) and in 6,5 mms (Mod. 91/38). Identical except for caliber and sight zeroing distance (7,35 mms at 300 metres, 6,5 mms at 200 metres). Only the very first M1938 short rifles initially had a different handguard and nosecap and no second barrel band (and these are not "prototypes", as Richard Hobbs incorrectly named them, but regular production). Upon negative reports from the troops, these features were changed, and the old style rifles were almost all retroconverted to the later (common) standard, by exchanging the handguard and nosecap and re-milling the stock's front end to accomodate the new nosecap.
The Short Rifle is often confused with the Moschetto TS. Beware. See the explanation later on this page for a listing of the differences.

Moschetto TS (Short Carbine):

M91 Carbine:
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc/arm105.jpg

91/24 Carbine:
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc/arm108.jpg
A short carbine, stocked almost to the muzzle, with a bayonet lug and a handguard. Comes as M91 (in various modifications), M91/24, M91/28, M38, M38 S (in 7.9/7.92/8mm Mauser) and M91/38.

Moschetto per Cavalleria

M91 Carbine:
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc/arm106.jpg

Youth Carbine:
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc/arm110.jpg
A half-stocked cavalry carbine, with the unmistakable triangular folding bayonet; it is fixed to a permanent muzzle mounting, but hinges back under the stock, into a slot there. Not infrequently the bayonet is missing. Exists as M91, M38, M 38 S, M91/38. One manufacturer, FNA Brescia, continued its previous M91 pattern throughout the Second World War and never made a M91/38 with fixed sights. Please note that the round barrel base (instead of the old half-octagonal configuration with five facets on the upper side and a round base) was already introduced way before 1938 for the last M91 carbines and is not a sign for a M91/38 model in and by itself.

How to distinguish a Short Rifle and a Moschetto TS:


The Short Rifle has a gripping groove milled into each side of the wooden forearm; the Moschetto TS not.
The Short Rifle has a buttplate with a small (hard-to-pry-open) trapdoor for its three-piece cleaning rod; the Moschetto TS has its rod right under the barrel, screwed into a channel like the Fucile 91.
The Short Rifle is xxx cms (40 inches) long, the Moschetto TS only xx cms (36 inches).

How to distinguish the manifold Moschetto TS sub-variants:
Have you ever taken a broom and begon to sweep the forest ? *Sigh* The Moschetto TS underwent constant minor modifications and alterations like no other Carcano, and I find it very difficult to gain an overview. Collectors hould keep in mind that these were all undertaken man mano, that is, successively as soon as a gun would have to be repaired and came back to the arsenal. Many different stages and variants thus co-existed at the same time and to speak of "introduction times" would mislead the reader. The changes mainly involve the following parts:


- bayonet lug on original nose cap altered from transversal TS shape to usual straight fucile shape

- handguard retainer hook added to nosecap; handguard accordingly loses its retaining inner front metal lip, like the fucile's handguard did earlier

- additional side sling swivel mounted into the forearm
long curved nose cap exchanged to short fucile style

- second barrel band added (fucile style)
- side sling swivel added onto the fucile style barrel band.

More info:

http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc.htm

[JWS691]

that have gotten a bad rap for some reason(may have something to do with a guy name Oswald). The action is very smooth, well built and as accurate as any other milsurp if you use the correct diameter ammo. The Norma stuff is undersized.

I have had numerous Carcani in my collection over the years and have enjoyed them all. My favorites are the calvary carbines, short, easy handling rifle with a useful bayonet.

E me and I will point you in the direction of sites to read up on them

jwsinsure@bellsouth.net

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Can you post the links here?

Here's a good one, but it takes awhile to load:

http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~glibera1/carcano/images/

Here's a piece dispelling all the bad rap that rifle has gotten:

Quality of the Carcano
There have been various disparaging remarks made about the Carcano which - over the time - have tainted its reputation. Most of these remarks are hearsay rumors which one firearms writer has copied from the other, as so frequently happens. The most damaging is probably the story about a WW II Allied soldier getting killed when firing a Carcano, thus giving the Carcano the reputation of being unsafe. The story goes that the firing pin ruptured the primer causing the expanding gases to propel the firing pin backwards, breaking the safety retaining pin and into the face of the unfortunate soldier. The only problem about this story is that no one seems to know the name of the soldier, the nearer circumstances of the incident, or any other provable fact. Since then, there have been no other reports of injuries even remotely similar to this incident, thus either suggesting the incident was a fluke or, more likely, false wartime rumor.
The second is the "humanitarian rifle" moniker used a couple of times in the Warren Commission Report. This rumor apparently has it roots in the false belief that the Carcano is so poorly made that it will either not fire, or is so inaccurate that when actually fired, you'll probably miss the target (the opposing soldier that is), or that the terminal performance if its 6,5 mm bullet is so insufficient. Thus it would be cosidered "humane" to the enemy. Actually, this quotation seems to go back to an (in)famous Mussolini speech of early 1943 date in which he tried (with his usual flamboyant rhetorics) to veil the complete failure of Italian military leadership - notably his own - by blaming e.g. equipment.

Neither is the Carcano unsafe, nor is it inherently inaccurate:
According to Bloomgarden, on the sporting (competitive) use of the Model 91:


"[The Royal Arms Works in Terni] might still take pride [sc. in the mid-1960s]: in an experiment a Model 91 of her own, with sight modified to make it correspondent with a modern Garand rifle manufactured by Beretta, displayed a greater accuracy than the Garand." (p. 127)
"The president of Interarms, the largest private wholesaler of ammunition and armaments [stated]: 'It's interesting to note that the Italian army NATO rifle team still uses the 6.5-mm M91 rifle in the NATO matches and still comes out in the top positions, it advises us, every year, against all other NATO teams with all the other rifle types. It uses their own original 6.5-mm cartridges which are, now, at least ten years old minimum.'" (p. 133)


According to Hobbs:

"Several years ago the Editor of Banzai called me about the Type I, it seems at the annual Alabama Shoot Out they had shot the Type I for the first time and were surprised to find it was more accurate than the Arisakas."
Acording to a kind notice from John Stovall:

From: John.A.Stovall@cdc.com (John A. Stovall)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Rifle
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Date: 5 Jul 1998 19:03:28 -0400
Message-ID: <6np0o0$mhp@xring.cs.umd.edu>
References: <6nlfoh$fa5@xring.cs.umd.edu> <6nop19$l7e@xring.cs.umd.edu>


...
You haven't read much about the M91 Carcano then. I suggest you read, "Testing the Weapons of War" by Timothy J. Mullin. Mullin fired over a hundred different military weapons of this century and a few of the last. And guess what, it ended up in the five best rifles he tested.
"The M91 Italian Carcano carbine with fixed sights was the most surprising of the weapons fired. I had always thought of them these rifles as cheap wartime emergency weapons, but instead they are light, handy, and easy to shoot with great combat sights. It is he best rifle fielded by the Italians during the war and much better than any other bolt action rifle used in the two world wars by the combatants - except as noted earlier with the Pattern 14/m1917 Enfield"

http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~glibera1/carcano/general.html

[bars full auto]

Don't tell me you guys think that is what really killed JFK

[Schuetzenman]

Originally posted by bars full auto
Don't tell me you guys think that is what really killed JFK

If it did, I'm a Billionair! :rolleyes:

[neilwest]

Originally posted by weevil
If I remember my history right, Lee Harvey Oswald used a Carcano to shoot Kennedy. Hmmm, I might have to look into getting one of those. :D

1. still prone to gas leakage and brittle receivers. I would get one for collection purposes only. Never thought much of Italian weapons other then Berrettas.

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Originally posted by bars full auto
Don't tell me you guys think that is what really killed JFK

Why not? The Mafia had to leave some kinda signature!:D

Seriously, the Carcano could have done it just as easy as a Mauser, Springfield or Enfield could have.

You should read that website on the Carcano. They dispell alot of hearsay about that rifle that cropped up after the assassination.

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Originally posted by neilwest


1. still prone to gas leakage and brittle receivers. I would get one for collection purposes only. Never thought much of Italian weapons other then Berrettas.

Where are you getting that info?

I had a Carcano spray me with a face full of hot gas once, but it was due to a split in a case - Military 7.35 ammo. That was the ammos fault and I will never shoot Italian surplus anymore.

[neilwest]

Originally posted by HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin


Where are you getting that info?

I had a Carcano spray me with a face full of hot gas once, but it was due to a split in a case - Military 7.35 ammo. That was the ammos fault and I will never shoot Italian surplus anymore.

1. Back in the 60's these were mail-order guns that cost around $18.00 delivered. No FFL was required back then. When Kennedy was shot they did a report on them and trying to dispell Harvey as a shooter said what I have quoted.

2. Having never owned one myself that really is second hand so I stand corrected.

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Does anybody have a link to Century's Carcanos?

I looked all through the latest SGN, and not a friggin Carcano one!

Here's a nice looking M38 Fucile Corto on gunbrokers, though:

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=2663080