Need help on Finn M39's before I call and bitch

[TheRifleman]

Got a couple M39 Finn's from WG&A today. 1 VKT "like new" 1 B-Barreled "like new" $149. each.

VKT has a forced matched bolt. I did'nt ask but was expecting a matching rifle if rated like new and for $149.

Bigger problem:

B-Barreled rifle is very loose....barrel moves back and forth and it actually moves when you shake the rifle a lightly. Rattles bad. I took it apart. It has been shimmed with some metal tabs so iot will fit the stock correctly. IMO this is BS and I'm sending this one back. If this were a $39. rifle it would be one thing, but for $150. it should be better than this.

So, should I send them both back or is it common to have a force matched bolt in mil-suro guns. The only other one I have that is like this is one of the rearsenaled M44 russians.

What should I be expecting?

[Schuetzenman]

Originally posted by TheRifleman
Got a couple M39 Finn's from WG&A today. 1 VKT "like new" 1 B-Barreled "like new" $149. each.

VKT has a forced matched bolt. I did'nt ask but was expecting a matching rifle if rated like new and for $149.

Bigger problem:

B-Barreled rifle is very loose....barrel moves back and forth and it actually moves when you shake the rifle a lightly. Rattles bad. I took it apart. It has been shimmed with some metal tabs so iot will fit the stock correctly. IMO this is BS and I'm sending this one back. If this were a $39. rifle it would be one thing, but for $150. it should be better than this.

So, should I send them both back or is it common to have a force matched bolt in mil-suro guns. The only other one I have that is like this is one of the rearsenaled M44 russians.

What should I be expecting?

Well TheRifleman, the like new ones I've seen were not "Forced Matched". If I understand your term correctly. Is the bolt electropenciled or just overstamped? What I think they usually do is grind the bolt down a bit and then put the numbers on.

On the one that is loose. Can you tighten the stock bolts down and will it stop flopping around if yo do. These are supposed to be free floated barrels under the handguards.

In a 10 rifle order I got in that came through Interord almost all of the guns were #1 greasy but #2 almost every screw and bolt was loose as a goose on them. I tightened everything down and degreased the bores and the bolts. Also did all the stocks with the Lemon Oil cause they sure were dry.

I think it's your call. If I could see them or good closeups of the problems I could coment further.

[TheRifleman]

Schuetzenman, the bolt on the VKT has one number crossed out and another number stamped in. Not electropenciled but stamped.

I tightened everything down on the B-barrel but it still wiggles back and forth. The VKT is tight. I don't know how to describe it other than it wobbles like my Enfield free float barrel in the #4mkII. I would think if it were supposed to be free float the VKT would have play in it also but it does'nt.

Here is what a guy wrote on Parrallax's board. I asked the same question. Is this your experience?

Force matched bolts on the M39 finns are common. That is what makes them so good...the finns reworked them, tuned em up, and matched the bolts they had, to the new barrel they put on the old(and renumbered) receiver. As far as the shimms go, that is another reason why the finns are so accurate. When they were reworked, they shimmed them to improve the bedding between the stock and action. I have read here that sometimes the shims are lost or get loose because of the length of time they have been stored. Take that finn apart and look at the trigger assembly and see how they have changed it compared to your M-44. Have you checked the action screws to make sure they are snug? Sounds to me like the action is loose in the stock. Don't worry about the forced bolt...

I don;t know what to do. I guess a straight answer from WG&A is out of the question. Whatcha think?

[Schuetzenman]

If you grab the barrel and try to shift it does the action move in the stock? If it does than it's no good and won't shoot well unless you epoxy bed it.

On the restamped bolt. Well of the roughly 20 of this grade rifle I don't recall a renumberd bolt in the bunch that was overstamped. I do recall that the bolts looked like they'd been ground and polished which I suspected was them taking mismatched number bolts and "Cleaning" them up to match.

When the other guy says don't worry about it, he is probably correct from a safety headspace point of view. But a collector is looking for certain things in a weapon and if it isn't what you want you need to not accept it. That's why I say it's "Your Call". You have to decide if you can live with it in the collection or will it gnaw at you?

If that B barrel lets the action wiggle then I'd send it back to. M39's are supposed to be free floated. However not all of them are. Most in fact probably touch the handguard up in front right were the barrel emerges from under the guard. Well without holding them or seeing them somehow I'm out of advise. Your Call buddy!;)

[TheRifleman]

OK the more I look at these the B-barrel is actually a better looking rifle. It all matches. The action does not move, just the barrel and it moves like the Enfield that is free floated so I'm sure it is fine. The VKT which is tight is touching the handguard right at the end where the handguard stops and exposed barrel begins. I took a pic of the bolt. Also, the reciever has been remarked as well. I think I'm going to call tomorrow and send the VKT back. For $149. and a rifle advertised as like new, I feel like the parts should match. Am I wrong on this? Below is the picture.

[Schuetzenman]

Ya, I think you're right on the VKT. I usually see stuff like that on lesser quality M39's.

Say on the stocks on both rifles what do the joinery fingers look like? Are they tapered and round on the ends or are the parallel and flat on the ends?

[TheRifleman]

Fingers are flat and even. Why?

In your opinion then, I should at least call them on the VKT?

The guys on Parrallax said the B-barrel rifle "free floating" is exactly how an M-39 should be.

[pro2nd]

Rifleman

I would def send the one back for 150.00 it had better have matching #s as for the other I would prob send it back too we work too hard for our money and for 150.00 I for one expect a perfect rifle thats just my 2 cents.

[breastman]

Thats some good info guys, but can anyone recommend where to get a good M39 (matching, strong rifling, good condition) for a good price? I got my VG-Exc cond VKT M39 for WG&A back in May and it is all matching and with a mirror bore, but I guess supply must be low and quality decreasing. Later Guys, and Have a Great Veterans Day.

[Schuetzenman]

Originally posted by TheRifleman
Fingers are flat and even. Why?

In your opinion then, I should at least call them on the VKT?

The guys on Parrallax said the B-barrel rifle "free floating" is exactly how an M-39 should be.



Yes IMO you should register a complaint and get permission to send the VKT back. A restruck bolt like that is more of what you see on $80 dollar M39's.

The joinery finger thing was to see if you had post WWII stocks or War Year stocks. The tapered and rounded ones are war years and after WWII they went to squared off parallel fingers. No doubt cause it's easier to do than the tapered and rounded ones.

[TheRifleman]

OK This AM I talked to the man at Wholesale who picks these M39 rifles. I got an education to say the least. He was very nice, very informative. Offered to return the rifle if I would like but he said if he looks it over and he can get nothing better he would refund my money. Thats fair.

He said all these rifles built by the Finns were captured weapons. I asked about the miss matched numbers etc. He said all the Finns did was rebarrel them and then the receivers were marked with the serial numbers to match the barrels. Same with bolts. He said it is very common, even on the like new guns to have bolts that have either been struck through or the original numbers ground off and re marked. He said none of these rifles are perfect and it is common to see nicks or dings on the stocks, they were shipped from Finnland like cord wood in crates.

On the fingers joints in the stocks. He said there are actually 3 variants. The war time with the curved joints. The immeadiate post war with the straight joints and then in the 60's he said they made the joints pointed. Both mine are the squared off straight joints.

I guess I'm going to keep this VKT. My main concern was the bolt and on the Parrallax board that guy Darrell who is the M-39 scope mount maker and "guru" for M-39 also said it sounded like I had some great rifles.

[Schuetzenman]

About them being captured weapons that's true. The Fin rifles are all Czarist eara 1891 Mosins that were rebarreled for the most part. Occassionally you get a rare Fin 91/30 with a round receiver. But for about 95% of the Fin rifles they will have octagon receivers from captured 1891's.

All of the quote "Like New" ones will have been renumbered. But usually they have ground off the old numbers and then renumbered. Perhaps the numbers were too deep or it was a different craftsman that didn't believe in grinding off that much of the bolt. Who knows for sure.

The B barreled M39 I've got has the double headed Romanov Eagle crest still about 95% intact on the upper flat. Usually though there is a milled or ground area on that flat to remove the hated emblem of the Finnish occupation by Russia.

On the joinery, yes I had forgotten about the V shaped fingers but I have seen them. One of the reasons I asked about these features was to determine if you had a WWII or earlier stock on it. This would make the rifle a little bit more collectible to have the war era stock. Especially if it had a good cartouche on the side of the buttstock. Post wars don't have the cartouche.

You will also see a wide variety of parts on these rifles. For example on the B barrel of mine the front sight base has a S-gear logo stamp on it. So does the Cocking piece and I think the bolt body too! Still other parts have other arsenal marks on them. They are recycled bits and pieces. I don't think the Fins ever actually built any receivers, they just kept capturing them from victories against the Russians or then Soviets.

Speaking of that I've got a Tikka arsenal round receivered 91/30 that is finnish but is a Soviet production weapon originally. Just some more trivia. One of these days I've got to get a digital camera. I could put up pics to show some of this stuff to clarify it.

[TheRifleman]

You're just a world of info. Thanks.

These rifles look damn fine compared to that POS 91/30 I just got.

Below is the "B" barrel.

[Schuetzenman]

I like it! Good looking stock, much darker than I'd seen the B's have. Mine is sort of the color of that 91/30 pic you posted from Samco's catalogue. Kind of a dark honey brown color.

Say is your B barrel nice and Reddish-Purple in color? I can't pick that amount of detail out from the full length photo. :idea: If you take a pic of it focus in on the breech of the barrel and front of the receiver. This will show the contrast between the red B barrel color and the dark black of the blued receiver.