Full Auto modification

[rondo]

Is it possible to modify a Norinco sportster rifle into a full auto assault rifle?

I think the parts can be ordered by Gun Parts.

Rondo

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[M92S]

Yes it's possible, but is it wise?

semi-auto or burst are much usable.

don't just sray and pray!!!

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[teamafx]

To bad you have to have a class II FFL to do it. If you dont have one your SOL. Or on the other hand your lonely and your looking for a room mate named Bubba. Do it illegaly and you will go to JAIL!

Steve



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If Sam Colt made men equal then Mikhail Kalashnikov made a few superior.

[rondo]

Thank you very much for your replies!

Of course I will not break the law, I am just courios about it if it would be possible.

As I know the AK system it is very simple. Neither the parts are the problem as they are sold by Gun Parts.

The only problem is the law.

Regards Rondo

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[BenR85]

Are all fully automatic guns illegal in the United States?

[teamafx]

Yes and No. You cant just go out and get one or build one. You can do a few things to get one. Get a class III FFL, Get a C&R FFL, or live in a state that they are legal to own one in. All three ways will take alot of paper work and alot of money.

Steve



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If Sam Colt made men equal then Mikhail Kalashnikov made a few superior.

[mg34ssx]

Full Auto. So intresting. So extream. Look,,, if you want a full auto and you live in a state that permits full auto ownership, pay the entry fee ( cost of the gun and stamp ) . Do not be the part time gunsmith and build one. If you know how, it's easy. If you don't, you can get hurt and in the process of screwing around, get arrested and go to prison. I won't tell you that it can be done or not. I will not assist you in any way to construct a full auto. I have several machine guns. They are regestered and legal, form 4 and tax stamp! I can shoot them ( in a responsible way ) any time I wish. I don't have to worry about a knock on the door. I assure you that NO explanation will be sufficient at the range when you shoot a home built gun. Cops know about the Hell Fire and stuff. If they have a question about your gun, they will detain you untill they are satisfied about how the hi volume of fire they heard, was achived. No mercy, no "well, don't do it again". Don't be stupid. don't build a gun. You'd be better off getting busted for cocaine. The penalties are less.
Sorry, didn't mean to lecture, but you have to be clear on this. Lots of guns get built all the time. Full auto guns get built alot. The ATF busts about 800 guys for these guns per year, I've been told. Don't volunteer to be the next. If you don't think the ATF monitors this board and ALL the rest of the boards, you are dumber that words can discribe. You have a Norinco ? It's a very fine gun. Try the bump method. Use search to find it on this or another AK forum. It's legal, be carefull not to shoot over the backstop. Try the Hell fire, it's a waste of ammo, but it works and you won't go to jail. Go to a full auto shoot, and find out about the process of aquireing a full auto and learn about the guns. Under very narrow circumstances an individual can build a full auto, but untill you learn enough about the legal side and the rest of the stuff.... Please, just go study up one the laws and the processes. Don't be a poster child for gun control. Well, enough is enough. I don't mean to rant ( but I guess I do ) My best wishes, good luck.

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[mg34ssx]

Now I feel REALLY stupid. That post was from Switzerland. I have no idea if it can be done legally in Switzerland. I have read that it can be done, but there have been some changes in the laws there recently. Why would you need an AK ? I thought most folks had their own Sig 550 ? ( a gun to die for here in the US ).

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[rondo]

Yes all males in Switzerland who joined the Swiss Army have their own SIG 550 or SIG 510.

Also in Switzerland it is illegal to convert a semi into a full auto.

Thanks for your reply!

Regards Rondo

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[rifleman!]

There are also other alternatives. One such alternative is the 2 shot burst, which I understand has been approved by the ATF. Check out the 2x FAST TRIGGER at www.fortunecity.com/business/notebook/1802/index.htm (http://www.fortunecity.com/business/notebook/1802/index.htm)
I have not orderred one yet, so I don't know how well they work. On the website I just mentioned they are available for the AR-15, AK-47, Mini-14, and Mini-30.
AND if you want legal full auto in the states with out the permit, there is an ad in SGN advertising full auto .25 cal Thompsons for $450. No permit required. Comes with a 50-rd. mag, and 500 rds. of ammo. (970) 249-0302.


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_________________________
RIFLEMAN

[Tom Liemohn]

I am also seeking conversion info. i belive that the police in the states are really overlooking the AK. It is a terrific weapon overall with lots of power, small size and the ability to be set up as a sniper weapon as well. Anyeon who ahs teh conversion info I would apreciate it.

Oh yeah I am a class 2 Mfg. if you were wondering. I don't sell any full auto parts to those that don't have an FFL or a form 4 for the gun that they are buying the parts for.

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[ValmetM76]

Well Tom, if you can get a LE Letter you can buy BRAND new Class III stuff from Progressive Arms for a lot less than you can MAKE ONE for.
http://www.progressivearms.com/

Regards,
Mike

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[dirtybob]

i got the 2x trigger and it works great. but the deal is this. the BATF letter that comes with it is dated 1995. so im not sure if it is still legall to use. its a really simple idea, not a device. you could make one in your home in about 10 seconds and fit it to your rifle in about another 10 seconds. as far as the full auto .25 im thinking thats not true. as far as i know all full auto guns not regesterd at the time of the ban, or regesterd as post-may deal smaples are illegal. but yes the 2x trigger will help you fire twice as fast just as advertized. it also sent my ak into a full auto mode. but it was legall as far as the BATF is concerned because the trigger was being pulled for every shot, kind of like a hybrid "bump". e-mail me and ill give you more info. im not going to post it here because if it is still legall the guy still has a chance to sell them. if it has been ruled illegal ill tell everyone, for educational purp. only of course :D thanks
DB

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Originally posted by teamafx:
<STRONG>Yes and No. You cant just go out and get one or build one. You can do a few things to get one. Get a class III FFL, Get a C&R FFL, or live in a state that they are legal to own one in. All three ways will take alot of paper work and alot of money.

Steve

</STRONG>

Ummm A C+R license won't get you full auto and it is not expensive.$30 for three years.
It allows you to purchase C+R weapons right to your door.
All Class3 rules apply.
Robert

[bars full auto]

Actually you can buy class III with a C&R lisence as long as it is a C&R gun(thompson sub machine gun) www.cruffler.com (http://www.cruffler.com)

[bigfoot]

DB-
I visited that website and aparently He no longer has the 2X trigger system. Thanks for the link though.

[teamafx]

Originally posted by 1 Patriot-of-many:

Ummm A C+R license won't get you full auto and it is not expensive.$30 for three years.
It allows you to purchase C+R weapons right to your door.
All Class3 rules apply.
Robert

Yes it will. Look on the C&R list... there are a lot of full autos on there.

Steve

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Originally posted by bars full auto:Actually you can buy class III with a C&R lisence as long as it is a C&R gun(thompson sub machine gun) www.cruffler.com (http://www.cruffler.com)

HOGWASH!!!!! ALL NFA RULES APPLY, INCLUDING $200 tax,fingerprinting,CLEO signature, extensive background check......
What the C+R Machine gun denotes is states like MN only allow C+R machine guns,example I can own an MG42 in MN but not an M16.....
Where the hell did you guys come up with this nonsense that I can buy a C+R machinegun through the mail?????
Seriously wondering about some of you gentlemen!!!!

:rolleyes:

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Originally posted by Teamafx:

Yes it will. Look on the C&R list... there are a lot of full autos on there.

Steve

See above post.....You guys need to understand the fine print.It merely denotes what is a C+R MG for states such as MN that ONLY allow C+R machinegun ownership.ALL NFA RULES APPLY.....(In my dreams I can buy and own an MG through the mail.)

[MickeyMose]

Robert, you are part right, part wrong. A C&R MG can be MAILED to the buyer, even out of state IF the form 4 has been approved. Saves ONE transfer and tax if gun is on a form 4 in another state. Otherwise it incurs $200 tax to xfer to IN STATE dealer then to you. Gun on form 3 incurs no tax when xfered to another dealer, in state or out. A C&R is a dealer (but not an SOT therefore xfer must be on form 4, not 3)so C&R elgible guns can xfer direct to him from any dealer or individual IF form 4 is approved.

The form 4 is the one that needs photo, fingerprint and CLEO signature - UNLESS tranferee is a corporation which requires NONE OF THE THREE! Even a PD has to xfer registration of an NFA item!

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Originally posted by MickeyMouse:Robert, you are part right, part wrong. A C&R MG can be MAILED to the buyer, even out of state IF the form 4 has been approved. Saves ONE transfer and tax if gun is on a form 4 in another state. Otherwise it incurs $200 tax to xfer to IN STATE dealer then to you. Gun on form 3 incurs no tax when xfered to another dealer, in state or out. A C&R is a dealer (but not an SOT therefore xfer must be on form 4, not 3)so C&R elgible guns can xfer direct to him from any dealer or individual IF form 4 is approved.

The form 4 is the one that needs photo, fingerprint and CLEO signature - UNLESS tranferee is a corporation which requires NONE OF THE THREE! Even a PD has to xfer registration of an NFA item!

That's my point...You can't just call up and say I'll take one AR18 or MG42 here's my CC for $5grand/20K?,heres my C+R license.... please ship tomorrow second day air......You still have to jump through all the hoops...
And I still disagree; you MUST still pay the $200 transfer tax for a MG regardless of C+R license or not.(please show me where you don't have to pay the tax).I concede that after approval(30+ to ? days) it can be shipped directly to a C+R license holder.One other point,the C+R license is NOT a dealer license merely a collector license.

SECTION IV. National Firearms Act Weapons Classified as Curios or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44: These weapons (e.g., machineguns) are firearms within the scope of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, and are subject to all the Act's provisions. Accordingly, these weapons cannot be lawfully transferred or received unless they are registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record at Bureau Headquarters. Once the registration requirements have been met, transfer may be made either intrastate or interstate to licensed collectors on ATF Form 4, "Application For Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of a Firearm." In each instance, the appropriate transfer tax must be paid and ATF must first approve the transfer application. The application to transfer must be accompanied by an individual transferee's fingerprints and photograph as prescribed on the form. The form also contains a law enforcement official's certification which must be completed

[1 Patriot-of-many]

BTW MM thanks for pointing out after you jump through all the NFA hoops you can have it shipped direct.....That's a little tidbit of which I was unaware,though it is the only difference in possessing a C+R license and buying a C+R MG which is any different than not having a C+R license and buying a MG....

[teamafx]

Yes you can Have an M-16 on a C&R. Its called a Colt 601 and it is on the C&R list. I never said you could have it mailed to your door. You were also unaware of the M-16 you can get with all the other full autos out there.

Steve

[MickeyMose]

Robert, maybe I was a little muddy there. Hard to be clear - even the ATF has to work to figure some of this crap out!

You are correct, C&R is not really a dealer but a collector. Sort of a licensee but not like a 01 or 07 FFL. For this explanation I will call a dealer a licensee, meaning a 01 or 07 FFL and SOT.

Approval of a form 4 requires payment of NFA xfer tax, C&R or not. Used between non-licensees in same state, licensee and non- licensee in same state. A NFA xfer does NOT require a 4473 yellow form.

Form 3 is transfer between dealers who hold FFL & SOT - no tax.

Where the C&R can save you on the tax is on a gun you purchase in another state. If that gun is on a form 3 (owned by a dealer with FFL & SOT), it xfers to your state, to a dealer that holds an FFL & SOT. From that dealer to you is on form 4 which requires tax of $200 for MG. Also in- state dealers's fee, say $50. = $250.

If out of state purchased gun is from an individual on form 4 it can be shipped direct to you, same $200 tax IF gun & you are both C&R. No dealer fee. Total tax and fee is $200.

If NOT C&R and gun is out of state purchase from non licensee, it MUST be first transfered to a dealer in seller's state on form 4, $200 tax. Next, dealer in seller's state transfers to dealer in purchaser's state on form 3, no tax. Dealer in purchaser's state then transfers gun to buyer on form 4, $200 tax. Tax paid = $200 + $200 + dealer fee of, say, $50 for total xfer cost of $450.

Compare: C&R gun to C&R licensee from out of state, total tax and fees of $200. (One form 4.)

C&R saves $250 in this case. Clear now?

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Originally posted by Teamafx:Yes you can Have an M-16 on a C&R. Its called a Colt 601 and it is on the C&R list. I never said you could have it mailed to your door. You were also unaware of the M-16 you can get with all the other full autos out there.

Steve

Steve the point was a C&R doesn't get you an MG any differently than a non C+R holder except for one thing. You still have to junp through all the hoops. Your original post implies that a C+R license bestoys some sort of special priviledge when it applies to machine guns,IT DOESN'T.
The only difference in having a C+R license when buying a MG is as MM pointed out; after jumping through the SAME hoops as a non-C+R license holder does, is the ability to have it shipped directly to them.
That is my point.
As to the M16,I'm guessing it in no way is anywhere close in price to the average M16 that other states allow their citizens to own.But thank you for the info.I'm looking at an AR18 myself (5K).

After re-reading your original post,It appears it was me misinterpreting what you were saying.
I apologize for my thick headedness.

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: 1 Patriot-of-many ]

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Originally posted by MickeyMouse:Robert, maybe I was a little muddy there. Hard to be clear - even the ATF has to work to figure some of this crap out!

You are correct, C&R is not really a dealer but a collector. Sort of a licensee but not like a 01 or 07 FFL. For this explanation I will call a dealer a licensee, meaning a 01 or 07 FFL and SOT.

Approval of a form 4 requires payment of NFA xfer tax, C&R or not. Used between non-licensees in same state, licensee and non- licensee in same state. A NFA xfer does NOT require a 4473 yellow form.

Form 3 is transfer between dealers who hold FFL & SOT - no tax.

Where the C&R can save you on the tax is on a gun you purchase in another state. If that gun is on a form 3 (owned by a dealer with FFL & SOT), it xfers to your state, to a dealer that holds an FFL & SOT. From that dealer to you is on form 4 which requires tax of $200 for MG. Also in- state dealers's fee, say $50. = $250.

If out of state purchased gun is from an individual on form 4 it can be shipped direct to you, same $200 tax IF gun & you are both C&R. No dealer fee. Total tax and fee is $200.

If NOT C&R and gun is out of state purchase from non licensee, it MUST be first transfered to a dealer in seller's state on form 4, $200 tax. Next, dealer in seller's state transfers to dealer in purchaser's state on form 3, no tax. Dealer in purchaser's state then transfers gun to buyer on form 4, $200 tax. Tax paid = $200 + $200 + dealer fee of, say, $50 for total xfer cost of $450.

Compare: C&R gun to C&R licensee from out of state, total tax and fees of $200. (One form 4.)

C&R saves $250 in this case. Clear now?

LOL you're right about the regulations!!! Almost have to be a lawyer to comprehend some of the meaning.
I didn't even consider the transfer tax from the orignal owner to his SOT!!!
That's a little bit of a plus for having the C+R license,in addition of course to buying all the non class3 stuff right to my door.
Thanks for pointing that out also MM.
Much appreciated.