PDA

View Full Version : SAR 3 and 84S compared


Ekie
09-27-2000, 10:07 PM
I originally posted this in a thread on assault web. Here it is again with a few grammar and spelling corrections.

I am a big fan of the Kalashnikov in 223. I would only recommend the 223 Kalashnikov to those that are interested in some kind of ammo standardization. It makes sense to have all your “assault rifles” in one caliber and all your “battle rifles” in another. Others argue that it is better to have a rifle in every caliber just in case supply on one is cut off.

The 223 Kalashnikov is a bit of an oddball or as CAMPYBOB prefers “Bastard”. Unlike the 5.45 or 7.62 the rifle was not introduced by the Soviets and then copied by others. If it had worked out like this then mags would be standard. Instead each country developed their own, and each accepts a unique magazine (a few exceptions here).

As far as the 223, and faster wear on the weapon. All things being equal except chamber pressure, the rifle with the lowest chamber pressure will last longer. Bear in mind that it is very difficult to wear a firearm out.

Norinco

The Norinco NHM-90 / MAK-90 / 84S is a 223 adaptation to the Chinese sheet metal receiver Type 56. The sheet metal receiver type 56 is a hybrid of the AK-47 that was developed independent of direct Soviet direction (No doubt they had a few on hand, and little Chinese reverse engineering went on here). The Soviets had “set up” the Chinese to build the type III AK-47 in 1956. The Soviets went on to develop and field the AKM. The AKM of course uses a sheet metal receiver. The Chinese in turn developed a sheet metal AK much later. None of the Soviet AKM updates were incorporated in the Chines rifle save the receiver construction and corresponding use of front and rear trunnions and a press in barrel.

The Norinco 223 is simply put a 223 AK-47 on a sheet metal receiver. To say that this rifle is designed for 223 is a bit of an overstatement. It is a conversation in the simplest terms. Others have noted parts changes that I have not. I have had complete success exchanging action springs between 7.62 and 223 version. I have tried different gas pistons also with no ill effect. The above mentioned examples may have had a different parts, but they are interchangeable AA-OKAY even states in their catalog that a 7.62 extractor will work in the 223 model.

Some users have reported that their Norinco 223 rifles have displayed seeming higher bolt velocity. I will point out that rifles chambered in 223 can be quite sensitive ammo selection. The 223 cartridge can be found with many types of powder that can vary in burn speed and basic composition (extruded, ball etc). Remember that the AR-15 had to be updated when the Army changed the powder in the 60’s. It would make more sense that this is caused the above mentioned reports of increased bolt velocity rather then that the Chinese drilled the incorrect size hole in the barrel (though port size was commonly referred to as being a problem in the early Polytechs).

SAR 3

The SAR is a adaptation of the Romanian AK-74. The Romanian conversion is more complicated then the Norinco. Thankfully we were all lucky to have Tantal examine, or should I say dismantle one and then give a full report. A little AK-74 history is needed to understand the SAR 3. When the Soviets developed the AK-74 then increased the length on the locking lugs on the bolt to compensate for the increased pressure generated by the 5.45. The Romanian developed their own AK-74 based on the Soviet design. They did not adopt the longer bolt lugs. When the Romanians converted their AK-74 to 223 (primarily for US commercial sales to be sure) they went ahead and used the longer bolt lugs. This is in contrast to the Norinco which uses the smaller AK-47 / AKM pattern bolt lugs. Unfortunately they did not buy or make a trunion to accept these longer bolt lugs. Instead they used the same type of trunion as the Romanian AK-74 and simply pressed the barrel in until it headspaces on the bolt. This means that the barrel “hangs of” or out farther then normal. This causes problem using standard gas blocks, gas tubes, etc. They Romanians also saw to it to make the bolt shorter in OAL. I can not explain why. Tantal’s explanation is that this modification is to prevent out of battery discharge. This combination of the bolt locking farther forward and being shorter leads to the big “bug a boo” with the SAR 3. Now the hammer is required to rotate farther in order to engage the rear bolt surface / firing pin. The standard US made AKM type hammers installed in the SAR by Century have to be modified in order to hit the firing pin flat. The successfulness s of this modification by Century varies greatly from rifle to rifle. Some examples have been known to not even be capable of firing a single round.

In short SAR 3 suffers from the problems associated with the over rotation required by the hammer. It also has the advantage of having a larger locking surface to better handle the pressure generated by the 223.



------------------

Jimbob
09-28-2000, 02:19 PM
Gimme an 84s!!!!. However at the price of the SAR3 I would be more likely to conider it if the problems were worked out? Anyone think of redesigning a properly heat treated hammer?

Take care

------------------

Ekie
09-28-2000, 04:27 PM
Looks like that post could use a few more grammar corrections. Hehehhe

Jimbob no argument here. If you want a 223 Kalashnikov and do not like projects or “surprises” the Norinco is the better choice. If you want to build a replica of a Wieger, AK-101, or a Beryl, or simply an AK-74 in 223 then the SAR 3 is the best starting point.

As far as options on the hammer please refer to my current SAR 3 thread.

As a side note the Bulgarian 223 AK-74M1A1 parts kits that K-VAR is AKM pattern. Sure it uses a 90-degree gas block and modern furniture but it is an AKM. The bolt is of the standard AK-47 and AKM design. In fact I have a Bulgarian AK-74M1A1 bolt in my Galil.


------------------

STEEL CORE
09-29-2000, 09:19 AM
I understand NORINCO NHM and MAK and 84s, but what is a BWK? in .223 Is the holder under the ft sight ground down like a MAK so the clean rod is unsecured? Does it have a threaded muzzle, thumbhole? Anybody got one who can comment? Thanks....

------------------
"STEEL CORE" When you want to send the very best!!!

Ekie
09-29-2000, 01:43 PM
I have only seen a few Norinco BWK 223 rifles. They looked to be the same as a MAK-90 to me.

------------------

Jimbob
09-29-2000, 07:04 PM
I have looked a couple BWKs for all intensive purposes they appear to be a MAK90 in every respect. Only thing of note is the wood seemed to be of a little better grade (though appearence is not always indicative) and the stain was darker than is seen on the typical MAK90. The best one I have seen, though it was overpriced at $599, was an 84s postban with a 19 inch barrel (might have been 20 or 21 dealer said 19) and awesome wood for a thumbhole. It was labelled as a "transition gun" which I know is an almost ubiquitous term around gunshows. Good luck!

------------------

SouthernShark
09-30-2000, 04:22 PM
There are some receivers being made in the US now. I don't know if they are any good or if they are junk, but it seems like somebody would make some .223's out of them.

Here is my advice, look at a NORINCO and look at a Galil. Now make the receiver IDENTICAL to one or the other. Then it could take Norinco or Galil mags and all would be good. My advice is to copy the Galil. The way that the SAR3's seem to be made, sounds idiotic to me.

-SouthernShark


[This message has been edited by SouthernShark (edited 09-30-2000).]

STEEL CORE
10-01-2000, 07:49 AM
Any body have a BWK .223 Chinese gun?
Is the reciever angle cut or regular? Threads? Clean rod holder under ft sight or is it ground off? Will it accept Norinco .223 hi caps? I have a line on one but dont want to pursue it if it would be more trouble than its worth to buy it, Install US made parts and restock it if it will only still look like a post ban.

------------------
"STEEL CORE" When you want to send the very best!!!

ValmetM76
10-01-2000, 09:24 AM
A BWK is a postban AKM.
It's a Norinco MAK 90 brought in by another importer.
It will use Norinco 223 mags. The cleaning rod loop and retainer are ground off like on all MAK 90s and there are no muzzle threads.

It's a MAK 90!

Regards,
Mike




------------------

STEEL CORE
10-01-2000, 05:01 PM
Thanks Mike, the reciever is not angle cut is it, I mean a pre-ban stock will fit OK right? I can get a front sight base and gas block w/ loop at KNOB CREEK.

------------------
"STEEL CORE" When you want to send the very best!!!