No.4 Mk I + Navy Arms = ?

[JES AR15]

i have my eye on one of NAVY ARMS No4 MKI's for either $125 or $190. i'm looking for the best "bang for the buck"

what i want is a nice WWII looking example, preferably England made and 1939-45 dated if possible.

what would/should the :

wood color/condition be ?
metal finish/condition be ?
bore condition ?

[Schuetzenman]

Well, well, well . . . so you want a No. 4 Mk I do yah! I hope you have better luck than I did. It seems as if most people do in Mail Order things.

All I can tell you is to purchase the best condition Enfield you can get. Better condition usually = more $$'s.

If it's an origianal barrel bore condition could be anywhere from a bright shiny sewer pipe to a dark pitted hell hole or VG to Mint. It just depends. Usually the higher priced ones have a better chance of a VG to Mint bore but not always. But you can send it back if it does not meet your criteria.

They seem to be putting out some Enfields that have come from
South Africa, though not manufactured there. Look for a large arrow with an "S" on the left side of the arrow shaft and an "A" on the right.

They also seem to have a grade of rifle that has been sanded to get rid of all the handling dings an scars and then refinished. The cocking pieces and bolts on these seem to be sand blasted to a dull matt gray colored finish. This is not correct, they should be painted black with backing lacquer like the rest of the action. I'd paint the bolt and cocking piece if I got one of these to make it look more correct. Visually these are very appealing rifles, but not 100% original conditon.

The Brits and their loyal minions that carried the Enfields used these rifle hard. An original unrefinished rifle in better than Good condition is damn hard to come by. Often the bores are not too bad but the stocks look like they were used to smash down a small wood frame house. :eek:

The best conditon Enfields are the Mo. 4 Mk II's. They are mid 1950's vintage so they are post WWII. Visually there is little difference from the outside, but the triggers, now theres a big difference. The Savage No. 4 Mk I is the most accurate shooting of the Enfields as the chambers are not so gross in size. The one I have which can be seen in a post by Zouave titled, "Some of Schuetzenmans rifles" I believe. However it does not have an original barrel on it. I believe they were 2 groove barrels and mine is a 5 groove, so I believe it to be an English replacement barrel. Like I said, most of these rifles were used hard and finding them with the original barrel that is not a smooth or rusted out sewer pipe is difficult.

[NC_Rebel]

Originally posted by Schuetzenman
The best conditon Enfields are the Mo. 4 Mk II's. They are mid 1950's vintage so they are post WWII. Visually there is little difference from the outside, but the triggers, now theres a big difference. The Savage No. 4 Mk I is the most accurate shooting of the Enfields as the chambers are not so gross in size. The one I have which can be seen in a post by Zouave titled, "Some of Schuetzenmans rifles" I believe. However it does not have an original barrel on it. I believe they were 2 groove barrels and mine is a 5 groove, so I believe it to be an English replacement barrel. Like I said, most of these rifles were used hard and finding them with the original barrel that is not a smooth or rusted out sewer pipe is difficult. Looks like pretty much all the wartime No.4 Mk.I's have 2 groove barrels. My Long Branch does. I read somewhere that No.4 Mk.I (T)'s were fitted with 5 groove barrels but I've never seen one in person so I can't confirm or deny that.

JES AR15, like Schuetzy said, you get what you pay for. I have not dealt with Navy Arms, but the prevailing opinion is their rifles have a lot of... uhm... character. ;)

[Richard Simmons]

I have seen numerous posts regarding Springfield Sporters as having the better selection of firearms in this category. I'm looking to BDL ltd for mine as they sem to have the best quality out their.

[Sajer]

Originally posted by Richard Simmons
I have seen numerous posts regarding Springfield Sporters as having the better selection of firearms in this category. I'm looking to BDL ltd for mine as they sem to have the best quality out their.

Do you have a website for BDL ?


And from what I've seen of the Navy Arms rifles they take good condition rifles or parts and add new or reconditioned stocks.
I stopped at a local shop and spotted a beautiful one on the rack. After checking it out and rejecting it the dealer started to tell me what they were doing. BTW he stated he had sold a few of these that looked the same for $200

[NC_Rebel]

I have to eat a little crow here. I didn't realize that the Ishapore 2A I bought recently (from Classic Arms) was a Navy Arms rifle. They did refinish the whole thing, sand blast the bolt, and replace the stock. This rifle is definitely not "authentic" - it's not oozing cosmoline, fresh out of a crate, with ten thousand nicks and gouges on the stock. It looks brand spanking new, which is nothing to sneer at. I suppose it all depends on what you want.

[JES AR15]

hey NC, that sounds like what i'm going to end up getting.

did i see a pic of it yet ? if not, can you put one up ?
what does the bore look like ? finish on the metal ?
anything else you want to add ?


btw all. i saw a No4 Mk2 today. ALL matching, including bayo and scaboard. the metal was ok looking, but the wood was very used and the b/p needed replacment. i saw rifleing in there, but i didn't look real hard at it, i'm sure it would be dark at best, but who knows. i could get it for about $300, is that good/bad ?

[Schuetzenman]

Well NC,
You bring yours to the range on the 26th and I'll bring my Ishapore and you tell me which one you'd rather own. Mine is oringinal Indian Police department configuration.

Stock is rosewood, metal is painted with about 4 or 5 coats in some spots. Yours probably has a Walnut stock and only one coat of paint that is smooth and even, not glossy either like the shi . . . stuff on mine. :D Also has the aluminum buttplate.

Hey does your elevation adjuster roll smoothly on your rear sight? I had to fight mine and lube it for quite a bit to get it to work. Paint is the reason! :mad:

[NC_Rebel]

JES AR15, it looks brand new. Matching numbers. Stock is a deep red color, not sure what type of wood it is, but it looks like rosewood to me. The bore is bright (especially after I cleaned the heck out of it), but it is a chrome barrel so it should be bright. :D About that No.4 Mk.II you saw, if I was in your shoes, I might consider it depending on the condition of the bore. Which bayonet? The No.4 spike bayo or the No.9 blade bayo?

Here's the Ishapore:
http://album.gunsnet.net/data/nc_rebel/full_89_p706.jpg


Schuetz, I know which one I'd rather have, believe me. The worm wheel is tighter than the hinges on a Scotsman's coin purse (and I can say that because I'm Scottish :D ). Yeah, there were gobs of paint all in it, just like yours. I'll bring my little Indian beauty out on the 26th.

[JES AR15]

it had a blade on it. the thing really didn't do anything for me, the stocks were to beat up. sure it probably would clean up nice. but if i didn't like it would i be able to get that $300 back out of it ? + it really needs a replacement butt stock on it.

btw this place prices their stuff it will be there for a while. thats why i didn't buy it, i figured that if they wanted $300 otd for it i could get the same for well under $200 online somewhere ?

yours looks pretty good. i think i'm going to call N/A tomarrow and ask what they have avalable.

[Richard Simmons]

Sajer,
Here's a link to the Distributor list on the top of the forums. They're on it.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27132

[JES AR15]

well i order a navy arms gun today. hopefully i will have it in less than a week

[NC_Rebel]

Awesome, JES AR15! Keep us informed. :)

[JES AR15]

i hope so ! & i sure will.

the more i think about that matching # one is saw the more i think i should get that also. it also had a matching to the gun 1st variation blade bayo & scabbard ! i would think that adds allmost $100 value to the gun. wacha think ?

jes

[Speedfish]

NC,
how much did you pay for that Ishapore and does Classic have any more?
Thanks,
Speedfish

[NC_Rebel]

Speedfish, I got it at the Classic table at a local gun show for $250. This was the only one they had at that table that day so I don't know if they have more. Sorry. :(

[JES AR15]

Originally posted by JES AR15
well i order a navy arms gun today. hopefully i will have it in less than a week

i'm still waiting :mad: :rolleyes:
i just called but the order people were gone for the day, i'll call back in the morning

[zouavexx]

Well, I hope it is worth the wait, and it brings an end too your bad luck...

[JES AR15]

me too, thanx

[Speedfish]

Thanks, NC.
Speedfish

[Schuetzenman]

JesAR15 to answer your unanswered question about matching numbers and it's worth, I wouldn't put more than $50 bucks worth of value to that on an Enfield. Really it comes down to how close to mint and unissued is the weapon.

Most show signs of heavy usage and can usually be described as in good condition for the mojority. Enfields that are VG to Excellent are IMO rare. Mint ones are as scarce (almost) as hens teeth. Only diff being that Mint enfileds do sometimes come up and I've yet to actually see a Hen's tooth! ;)

[NC_Rebel]

Originally posted by Schuetzenman
Enfields that are VG to Excellent are IMO rare. Mint ones are as scarce (almost) as hens teeth. Only diff being that Mint enfileds do sometimes come up and I've yet to actually see a Hen's tooth! ;) Schuetz, I came across a guy at the Raleigh show a year ago (or more) who had two Savage No.4 Mk.I's. These rifles were not only completely matching and in mint condition, but they were also consecutive serial numbers. He would only sell them as a pair, and his price was outrageous, so I passed it up – but only after drooling for a few minutes. :D

[Schuetzenman]

Wow, mint consecutive serial numbered Savages! :drooling: It boggles the mind! :eek:

[JES AR15]

thanx again Schuetz. that one was is rough shape and the price seemed a little high, but not as high (mark up) as the other guns in the store.

i called navy again today. they told me they don't have any more ( they said they did when i ordered it), and said they expect them in soon. that means some time this year :rolleyes: :mad:
maybe i will call SS on monday. but with the luck i have been having i don't want to buy shit :(

[zouavexx]

Man that sucks. Well I guess thats why people don't like Navy Arms.


Your luck has to change..........

[JES AR15]

Originally posted by zouave

Your luck has to change..........

i keep telling myself that, but what the hell do i know :D

[NC_Rebel]

Originally posted by JES AR15
i keep telling myself that, but what the hell do i know :D Fear not, JES. It'll all work out in the end. :D

Schuetz, you want to guess how much the guy was asking for the pair? :eek: :eek:

[Schuetzenman]

I'd guess he was asking $350 per rifle . . . no make that $400 per rifle. So how close am I?

BTW are you ready to rumble at San Lee?;) I've got my Ishi packed up along with 5 other of it's brothers to go do some lead spitting.

[JES AR15]

thanx guys, you are fine upstanding gents :)

he wanted $900 each