heavy barrels NOT

[Rew]

I have noticed the trend in using heavy barrels for so-called sniper rifles. In Police sniper rifles the shots are normaly not over 100 yards most of the time muchs less, and if more than one shot is required somebody screwed the pooch bigtime. The intresting part is that The Heavy barrel make's more since in the police situation than in a military situation. At least the LEO won't have to drag that damn heavy POS all over the countryside. The military sniper on the other hand does have to drag rifle, ammo, food, raido and other gear for days or weeks at a time. His motto is "one shot, one kill" and we saddle him with a heavy barreled glorified varmit rifle. The rounds in the mag are a comfort but that barrel is a curse. The avarge sporter wight barrel form the same action fired form a clean cold barrel will equal a heavy barrel even at long range, shot for shot, if all shots are taken from a clean cold barrel. If your shot is not comeing form a clean cold barrel or at most a second shot form that barrel, you are not a sniper.

Rew

[Roman Knoll]

Barrels with normal slim profile can shoot very accurate indeed. Heavy barrel may needed be on a varminter for heat dissipation when shots are fired in high frequency. Besides, you don't have to carry the damn thing.

Most of heavy barrelled rigs I handled showed poor balance for off hand shooting. I wouldn't even consider such rifles as viable for my kind of hunting.

Using such rifles as sniper rigs is not very wise idea - IMO. I can't see what you gain by heavy barrel in such scenarios.

Roman

[cleetus6416]

Gents,

My cousin was a marine sniper in viet nam, 69 & 70. and he tells me that most folks don't understand that the snipers motto of "one shot one kill" dosen't mean they only fire one shot. it means that for every shot fired one life is snuffed out! he had several assignments in nam that required more than 20 rounds being fired from his heavy barrelled rifle.
not all sniper missions are assasination attempts with a clearly defined target such as a provincial bigwig or nva or russian officer. most were just routine combat patrols that were easier dealt with by sniping at the enemy.

REW
you said that if you fired more than one shot you're not a sniper. How do you figure that? my cousin once had a mission that required him to take out three nva officers. was he supposed to wait until they were all lined up and hope the round pierced the first two before killing the third?

and as far as being heavy lets compare a heavy barrelled winchester 70's weight against the 9+ lb m1 garand my daddy carried in korea or the 22 lb m-60 I carried in viet nam. there is a lot to be said for a heavy weapon.........

[Dan Morris]

I donknow, have always used standard weight barrells in 700's
and Mod 70's. Never have had a accuracy problem.
Dan

[Flinter]

I have to agree with Cleetus........engaging mutiple targets is also part of the sniper's role.

As for barrels, SOME lightweight barrels shoot just as well as a heavy barrel on the first shot. Because of the heavier barrel being stiffer, you have a better chance at getting accuracy out of THAT barrel than a slimmer one. Just look at what the guys who do serious benchrest shooting use, no slim barrels on the line.

[Texas Resistance]

The gun manufacturers only try to make their heavy weight barreled rifles super accurate not their rifles with sporting weight barrels. For deer hunting a rifle shooting groups under 2 moa (2” group at 100 yards, 4” group at 200 yards etc.) will work. But a sniper shooting a target 800 yards away needs much better accuracy like ½ moa (1/2” group at 100 yards, 1” group at 200 yards etc.). Even if a light weight barrel is accurate for the first shot; the group will spread out as the barrel heats up from multiple shots.

[Meat3rzxxx]

its also a lot easier to steady a heavy barrel from a fixed position, such as a bipod. Its that whole concept of inertia

[Rew]

Gents,

My cousin was a marine sniper in viet nam, 69 & 70. and he tells me that most folks don't understand that the snipers motto of "one shot one kill" dosen't mean they only fire one shot. it means that for every shot fired one life is snuffed out! he had several assignments in nam that required more than 20 rounds being fired from his heavy barrelled rifle.
not all sniper missions are assasination attempts with a clearly defined target such as a provincial bigwig or nva or russian officer. most were just routine combat patrols that were easier dealt with by sniping at the enemy.

REW
you said that if you fired more than one shot you're not a sniper. How do you figure that? my cousin once had a mission that required him to take out three nva officers. was he supposed to wait until they were all lined up and hope the round pierced the first two before killing the third?

and as far as being heavy lets compare a heavy barrelled winchester 70's weight against the 9+ lb m1 garand my daddy carried in korea or the 22 lb m-60 I carried in viet nam. there is a lot to be said for a heavy weapon.........

I figure that, because if I had fired more than one shot from the same postion, I would have never got a kill book. Lets do compare the M1 Garand or better yet the M1C and M1D both sniper rifles nither with a heavy barrel. Or how about the M21, again a dedacated sniper rifle and no heavy barrel. The M1 is a WWII weapon the M21 is a Vietnam era weapon. We can do better now. I am not talking about a desinated marksman, I am talking about a Sniper. Sniper's work in teams, the most important weapon they have is the radio. The Marines call them SCOUT Snipers for a reason. The Army call's desinated marksmen "sniper". I have filled both postions in the Army, along with "counter sniper". Go ahead, fire more than one round from the same postion, you only get to make that mistake once. ;)

[TXSodado]

:cents:
I think the Garand being heavy (not heavy barreled) is easy to hold from an off hand position . I snipe squirrels at my house all the time with CB caps. The light Remington 552 semi-auto I used to use is harder to hold still than the heavier Marlin 39A that I changed too. Your heartbeat can make a light barreled rifle a bitch to hold still if you are not on a rest which you will not always have.
FACT* Heavy barrels are easier to hold steady when firing off hand.
FACT* Heavy barrels are stiffer than light contour barrels although some light contour barrels are pretty damn accurate.
FACT* Heavy barrels take longer to heat up (and cool down) from multiple or fast multiple shots. Light contour barrels heat up quickly and then will start stringing the shots (usually vertical) once they are hot.
FICTION* Long barrels are more accurate than short barrels.
Long barrels have been perceived as being more accurate because the advantage of longer sight radius.
FACT* Short barrels are stiffer than long barrels no matter what the weight, therefore give less barrel whip than longer counterparts.
FACT* Long barrels give a velocity edge over short barrels

REW, don't you think that a sniper in a good hide can make more than one shot without giving away the position? I guess how close to the target would have a lot to do with the likelyhood of the position being discovered.

[Rew]

TXSodado, some of your facts are a bit off. It is easyer for me to hold a lighter barrel off hand, however I have never known a Sniper (except hollywood snipers) to engage off hand. Yes heavy barrels heat up slower, so, very few sniper's use machineguns. When you zero a Sniper rifle you have two zero's the first from a cold clean barrel. The second from a fouled warm barrel. You hope the first is all you ever use, but with muti targets the second will be needed. I have never seen a sniper use fast multiple shots, because he will move between shots. A half ass trained counter sniper will locate a sniper within 10 meters after his first shot. With the thermal devices used today you don't hide muzzle flash. Then he has several options, call for morters or arty, use the direct fire of a IFV or Tank, direct the fire of a fire team or squad, on the second shot he may go with his own rifle. ;)

[TXSodado]

TXSodado, some of your facts are a bit off. It is easyer for me to hold a lighter barrel off hand, however I have never known a Sniper (except hollywood snipers) to engage off hand. Yes heavy barrels heat up slower, so, very few sniper's use machineguns. When you zero a Sniper rifle you have two zero's the first from a cold clean barrel. The second from a fouled warm barrel. You hope the first is all you ever use, but with muti targets the second will be needed. I have never seen a sniper use fast multiple shots, because he will move between shots. A half ass trained counter sniper will locate a sniper within 10 meters after his first shot. With the thermal devices used today you don't hide muzzle flash. Then he has several options, call for morters or arty, use the direct fire of a IFV or Tank, direct the fire of a fire team or squad, on the second shot he may go with his own rifle. ;)
REW, man when I hold a light barrel rifle offhand I tend to make little circles. So I should correct myself and say that IMO, heavy barrels are more suited to off-hand shots.
As far as sniper getting a second shot, I guess it would depend on if counter-sniper measures were in use when the first shot was fired. You are absolutely correct that military snipers are going to have a prone position with a rest 99.9% of the time.
I practice shooting offhand because it is more difficult than shooting prone or off a rest. Anybody who is a half-ass rifleman can hit off a rest. I do have another clarification, short barrels will always be stiffer than long barrels if they are of similar weight. If you don't believe me, bend a coat hanger....no problem right? now cut a two inch piece and try to bend it. Big difference right? :cool:
What other facts do you think I screwed up on?

[Rew]

I agree shorter barrels are stiffer. However the reason it is harder to bend the coat hanger is a levarge problem. Leave the coat hanger long hold it at the ends and it is easy to bend, now with it still long grab it in the middle with your hands two inches apart. The hanger is the same lenth but harder to bend. ;) Be that as it may, a shorter barrel will wip less and droop less. Also let me say, when I say light barrel, I mean something like my AR with a 16" lightwight barrel is easier for me to shoot with accuracy offhand than my AR with the 24" heavy barrel. ;)

[HDR]

engaging mutiple targets is also part of the sniper's role.

Firing often from the same location is a good way to experience firsthand an Infantry countersniper technique.

Roman Knoll
Snipers that stand up and fire, ain't sniper's for long.