Lee Enfield Question

[NichoC]

Hi,

I would like to purchase a Lee Enfield .303 as this was the service rifle my grandfather was issued in the British Army (51 Scottish Highlanders, Royal Corp of Signals) in World War II.

I would like to get the proper model and revision (ie MK ?) for what would have been issued for him as an Armoured Scout car driver in France June, 1944. If anyone knows what model Lee Enfield .303 I should be looking at, how much they cost, and where to find a good shooting example, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Nick Campagna

HK USP .45
Astra A-75 .40
FAL L1a1 Sporter (British kit)
Russian SKS
Chinese SKS Para
Hesse H91 (G3 kit)

[NC_Rebel]

Welcome, Nick! I'm not sure what your grandfather might have been issued as an armored scout car driver, but the correct rifle for British troops serving in 1944 is the No.4 Mk.I. These rifles were made by several arsenals: Savage Arms (U.S.A), Long Branch (Canada), Fazakerley, Maltby and BSA. Most of the ones made by Savage and Long Branch are the modified version, No.4 Mk.I*.

Here's a pic of mine (1943 Long Branch No.4 Mk.I*). The No.4 is the one on top:

http://members.fortunecity.com/brat75/enfields.jpg


Average price for one in very good condition? Somewhere around $150-200 retail is reasonable. Various dealers sell them (Century, AIM, Classic, Empire Arms, etc), the trick is ordering one when they're in stock! Check TheBigCA's extensive list of C&R dealers for more. You can usually find a few at the local gun show too.

I hope this helps. :D

[NichoC]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I will post a pic of mine when I get it. Are there any arsenal markings I can look for to be sure that it was issued to British troops in the 1943-1945 era? This is really important to me as he just passed away and I will no longer hear the war stories that used to capture my attention for hours when I was a kid. I will pay higher than retail for a gun that has a known history. I am glad I posted here because I came very close to purchasing the wrong type of Lee Enfield. (I know his was a Lee Enfield because that is what he called it, he also fired a Bren gun- but I doubt I can buy one of those ;) )

I have just sent off my C&R application as I am into Cold War era weapons, and Nagants also. After the Enfield I will buy a CZ 52, and a long list after that!

Thanks,
Nick

[REDSTAR]

NichoC- You're probably going to have to do a little research on the subject. The brits also used #1 MKIII's during WW2. However, I would say the probability that his rifle was a #4 MK1 is high.

I'd suggest reading my pick of the week for starters:
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24668

Then go to the site that is linked in my post for more info on Enfields. There are alot of historical Enfield sites out on the web, try a google search you'll get a zillion hits.

[REDSTAR]

Excerpt from the pick of the week:

It is not correct to think of the SMLE (or No. 1 Rifle) as a solely a WWI firearm. While it is true that the British government adopted the No. 4 Rifle in the late 1930s, production of the No. 1 Rifle continued, with more than 250,000 of them being produced during WWII by the BSA Co. factory at Shirley. In addition, the Ishapore factory in India manufactured more than 600,000 No. 1 Rifles during WWII, while the Lithgow factory in Australia produced more than 500,000 No. 1 Rifles between 1939 and 1945.

Except for several thousand Mk III rifles manufactured by Lithgow from 1939 to mid-1941, all of the WWII No. 1 Rifles are in the Mk III* configuration. Ishapore changed over from Mk III to Mk III* production circa 1936, while Lithgow did so in 1941. All of the No. 1 Rifles produced by BSA-Shirley were Mk III* rifles.

Production of No. 1 Rifles continued at Lithgow until circa 1956 and at Ishapore until circa 1974, with a number of improvements to the design of these rifles being implemented at both the Ishapore and Lithgow factories. All post-WWII rifles--both Lithgow and Ishapore--are Mk III* rifles. Circa 1949, Ishapore began using Arabic numerals rather than Roman numerals for the Mark number ("Mk 3*" rather than "Mk III*").

[NC_Rebel]

Originally posted by REDSTAR
NichoC- You're probably going to have to do a little research on the subject. The brits also used #1 MKIII's during WW2. However, I would say the probability that his rifle was a #4 MK1 is high. True, but for the most part, British front line infantry would have the newer rifle. Rearguard units, Home Guard militia, Indian, Australian and some South African troops carried the Mk.III*. I suppose he may have been issued a Mk.III considering the Signal Corps is not line infantry... hmmm....

[NichoC]

Thanks for the info!

I feel safe in purchasing a #4 Mk 1 because I remember him saying that it was brand new as they were issued Jungle Carbines (they took them away again) and lightweight uniforms and told they were goingto Burma as a hoax to avoid spying all of april and may 44.

Do I look for an Arrowhead mark to determine it was made in Britain (like on my FAL). Also are the guns offered in Shotgun news pretty good or should I pay more money for a good looking one at a gunshop (they are around $200.00 at the local shop). I don't care about spending this amount (I think they are a bargain at that price, as ammo is cheap and it will be a great range gun) but if they are identical elsewhere for $50.00 less I will get one of those.

I know this is a little off the mark but you all seem like British gun experts, so I will give it a try. I bought a Sten MkIII kit from Tapco and I do not have the need or desire to have a class III gun. Is there a way to have a smith build it semi auto only and have it BATF legal? My Grandfather also had two stens in the armoured scout car between the three occupants.

I will definatly post a pic of my #4 Mk 1 when I get it and I will let you all know how it shoots ( I have a great range about 1/4 mile from me that only costs $2.50 unlimited time so I go at least twice a week).

Thanks a Bunch!
Nick Campagna

[Bobcat]

Nick: Check out Springfield Sporters (1-724-254-2626). They don't have a website, but their latest catalog has No.4's advertised for:

Moltby - mint bore, head-spaced and test-fired for $90

BSA - same as above $90

Fazackerly - with bayo & scabbard, mint bore, head-spaced, test fired, WW II issue for $90 (Post WW II for $100).

I haven't had any experience with them yet, but most people speak very highly of them. Hope this helps. Later.

Bobcat

[NichoC]

I will buy the BSA tomorrow if they can give me a WWII issued one (I am the opposite- I want the WWII history on my rifle even if it was fired a bit more and made a little faster). If BSA WWII models dont exist I will buy the WWII one they have available.

I will let you all know how the rifle shoots (any rifle should out shoot me, but I am an OK shot). I will also send a picture of it when it arrives. It is amazing how cheap that rifle is. I mean just for the fact that it is a real piece of history (not to mention that it is a great hunting rifle). In the Mountains in upstate NY where I used to hunt when I was a kid I remember allot of the local "mountain people" had Enfields (Looked like # 1s) and they sure could out shoot most of us city folk with our big $ Brownings and high dollar scopes. They used iron sights.

Thanks everyone!
Nick

[whos2kno]

Originally posted by Bobcat
Nick: Check out Springfield Sporters (1-724-254-2626). They don't have a website, but their latest catalog has No.4's advertised for:

Moltby - mint bore, head-spaced and test-fired for $90

BSA - same as above $90

Fazackerly - with bayo & scabbard, mint bore, head-spaced, test fired, WW II issue for $90 (Post WW II for $100).

I haven't had any experience with them yet, but most people speak very highly of them. Hope this helps. Later.

Bobcat
what state are these people in.


NichoC
welcome aboard
let us know how it works out for you with this company and I'm sorry for your loss.
whos2kno

[NichoC]

Thanks everybody! I recieved allot of help here. I usually read every thing I possibly can about a firearm when I buy it so I am sure I will be a good contributing member here in time :):D !

I love British military history and currently own a British L1A1 kit built on a Century reciever, and I also have a Sten MK III kit that I have refurbished all parts almost perfect (I am just looking for a gunsmith who can convert it to semi auto before I do the reciever, as I have no desire for full auto {I would never have the fire discipline to use it effectively} and the ATF paperwork and all doesnt look like fun).

Your new friend,
Nick

[Schuetzenman]

Originally posted by whos2kno

what state are these people in.


Springfield Sporters is in Pennsylvania. Give em a call they are decent people to do business with. You can put in a request like "I want a bright, shiny bore" and they seem to be able to come up with it or as close as they can get.

Also may I extend a hardy welcome to NichoC. Hang around and post with us.

[zouavexx]

Originally posted by NichoC
Thanks everybody! I recieved allot of help here. I usually read every thing I possibly can about a firearm when I buy it so I am sure I will be a good contributing member here in time :):D !

I love British military history and currently own a British L1A1 kit built on a Century reciever, and I also have a Sten MK III kit that I have refurbished all parts almost perfect (I am just looking for a gunsmith who can convert it to semi auto before I do the reciever, as I have no desire for full auto {I would never have the fire discipline to use it effectively} and the ATF paperwork and all doesnt look like fun).

Your new friend,
Nick


Stick around Nick, you sound like a really nice guy.

Regarding the Sten, http://www.catco.net/ had a few semi auto kits, but it seems that they are sold out...
:(

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Use any STEN MKII SMG surplus parts kit (not included) and CATCo.\\\\'s exclusive completely machined and registered semi-auto receiver (FFL required). Comes complete with semi-auto bolt assembly, all necessary internal semi-auto parts, barrel extension and a Free Step by Step Assembly Video. Everything you need to assemble your own semi-auto STEN SA-2 rifle from a surplus parts kit.
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[NC_Rebel]

Nick, you'll like it here. Everybody is eager to help and there aren't any gun snobs on this board. :)

BTW, if you like history, check out our military history forums:
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=254

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=5&forumid=334

[REDSTAR]

there aren't any gun snobs on this board.

My guns are much better than everyone elses.

[NichoC]

Thanks everyone! The History boards are great! Ive been lurking there most of the day! Tales of the Gun is on History Channel all day today, I love that show ( I hope they have an FAL episode).

Nick Campagna

[NC_Rebel]

Originally posted by REDSTAR
My guns are much better than everyone elses. Well, I could be wrong. ;) Then again, maybe his guns ARE better than everyone elses... :confused: :p :p