Enfield Jungle Carbines

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

OK, the rumormill on these things is getting out of hand. This is what I have been hearing:

1. The No V WWII issue Carbines have a design flaw (excessive milling of receiver) (in order to make them lighter in weight) which causes a torsional reaction in the receiver, which when fired, results in a "wandering zero" point of aim.

2. Many of the Carbines for sale right now are in fact full size Enfields that somebody is cutting down and selling as bonafide No V Jungle Carbines when in fact, they are not.

Has anybody else heard these rumors? I remember reading in "Military Rifles of the World" (Hoag?) about the No V's wandering zero problem, but no details were given.

[zouavexx]

I have heard both rumors. I don't know what to believe and I would like some answers.

[NC_Rebel]

Yes, these are persistent if not unsubstantiated claims. I have read experts outline the inherent wandering zero problem as if it is an established fact, however I've talked with two Jungle Carbine owners who say that they do not have this problem. I will confess that this wandering zero issue is why I haven't purchased one.

As for the hack job carbines, yeah I believe there are some floating around the C&R market. I've heard these cut downs are coming out of Navy Arms. They freely confess to hacking up some Enfields for their "Tanker" model, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are behind the fake carbines. Gibbs Rifle Co. has been accused of hacking No.1 Mk.III's and selling them as real No.5's, but that's not true according to a Gibbs sales rep I met once.

[8dDUCE]

The claims of a wondering zero. BS!!!!! I have a #5 and I have NEVER seen or experienced a wondering zero! I have fired OVER 800+ rounds, with these weapon. At 50 meters I can put all 10 rounds in an area the size of a quater. This is with Military Ball Ammo, from WWII. 8dDUCE.

[8dDUCE]

If this condition did exsist, then the metal in the weapons would weaken over time. If the reciever lighting cuts caused the weapon to Flex enough to change the rounds point of impact, then over time the reciever would fatigue. I do not understand this myth. These weapons are great, handy weapons. I love mine. 8dDUCE.

[NC_Rebel]

Originally posted by 8dDUCE
The claims of a wondering zero. BS!!!!! I have a #5 and I have NEVER seen or experienced a wondering zero! I have fired OVER 800+ rounds, with these weapon. At 50 meters I can put all 10 rounds in an area the size of a quater. This is with Military Ball Ammo, from WWII. 8dDUCE. LOL This is what I mean. The pointy-heads that sit behind typewriters (do they even use word processors?) writing the gun gospel will say you're wrong 8dDuce. Could be that you got lucky? Go figure.

[8dDUCE]

Yeah, I was really lucky. An all numbers match #5 in excellent condition! Those nay sayers can rant all they want! Just like helicopters are not supposed to fly. And that the M1911 Colt is an outdated design, these people know everything:rolleyes: I personally have had NO problems, check with neilwest he has a #5. 8dDUCE.

[zouavexx]

As I compare the two receivers, (No. 4 and No. 5) I can hardly see a differance between the two. I think its an old Wives tale.

[8dDUCE]

I think it was an excuse to change over to semi auto's. I belive that the Enfield Bolt Guns were so good, that the Military needed an excuse to end the Bolt Guns Reign. Then again, I am Not an Expert on British Military History. So, this theory is based on my opinion. It is probably, more than likely, wrong, but hey. It makes a cool story. 8dDUCE.

[zouavexx]

I like your theory! I personally do not feel "undergunned" with the Enfield rifle.

[8dDUCE]

I would carry an Enfield to combat, when I was in the Service, I carried a SAW. I would trust my life to an Enfield, without a second thought! 8dDUCE.

[neilwest]

1. Ive owned four of them and with the exception of excessive headspace on the first, ive had absolutely no problem with any of them. :)

[NC_Rebel]

BTW, the perpetrator, as best I can tell, of the wandering zero rumor is Mr. Enfield himself, Charles R. Stratton. I found an old American Rifleman reprint with a letter to the editor about this very subject. C.R.S. replied with that the wandering zero problem is well documented. He has written elsewhere that the Royal Army ordnance bureau quickly decommissioned the Jungle Carbines after the war because of it. :eek:

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Well this is why I posted this. I have been interested in No 5's and have heard these things and can't justify paying more for a carbine than a No I or No IV.

However, I have heard alot of bad press about Carcanos which all turns out to be urban myth, now. So I thought I would check with you guys about these things I have heard as "gunshow rumors".

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Also, I don't know what these "lightning cuts" look like, but would assume that is one way to tell a bonafide No 5 from a fake one.

Does anybody have any pictures?

[zouavexx]

From the source...
http://www.uidaho.edu/~stratton/en-page/fakes.htm


No. 5 “Jungle Carbine”

Overall length 39-1/2 inches; 20-1/2 inch barrel with flash hider. Rubber buttplate; short fore-end.

An honest No. 5 rifle (or “Jungle Carbine”) has lightening flutes cut in the barrel knox form and extensive milling done to the receiver to lighten it. (Take the handguard off and look for the barrel flutes.) Also, an honest No. 5 will be electro-engraved “No5MKI” on the left side of the receiver and will not have “No. 4” stamped or engraved anywhere on it. In addition, an honest No. 5 will bear the proper manufacturer’s code: “(ROF)F” for Fazakerley or “M47C” for BSA-Shirley. Finally, the barrel band will be only 8 inches in front of the receiver ring--rather than 10-3/4 inches as on a No. 4 rifle.

In the 1950s and 1960s, Golden State Arms Co. of Pasadena, California modified quite a few No. 4 rifles by shortening the barrels, adding flash hiders, and shortening the fore-ends. Some were equipped with Fajen or Bishop sporter stocks, as well. These were called various names, such as “No. 4 Jungle Carbine,” or “Santa Fe Mountain Carbine,” or “Mountain Rifle,” but all have “Golden State Arms” and “Santa Fe” roll-stamped on the barrel. Nice aftermarket conversions, but strictly that.

Currently, Navy Arms is doing the same thing with No. 4 rifles and selling them as “No. 5 Jungle Carbines.” At arm’s length they look genuine, but they have standard No. 4 rifle markings and DO NOT have the lightening flutes on the barrel or the lightening cuts on the receiver. These are strictly fakes--or thinly disguised “replicas.”

Mine is real BTW.:) I am very happy with it, even if it does wind up having a "wandering zero" problem (which remains to be seen). - just like with my SAR-1 I am not interested in dead on accuracy with this rifle, If I want a tack driver I will use my K31.

[8dDUCE]

Mine is a real one too. I have some pictures of mine farther back. I am unable to take any more. Camera is at friends house. I did not get any pictures of the fluted cuts in the barrel, but they are there. The bolt knobs also have been drilled out hollow. If you find my pictures, you can the electro stenciled No.5 (ROF) on it. 8dDUCE.

[neilwest]

1. My 1946 is real with the proper stamps and fluted barrels. I believe that most imports are just what they claim to be. SOG and CENTURY are from the same importer and seems to be the real McCoy:)

[neilwest]

1. From the little training I have I cant imagine why a soldiar in the jungle would be worring about wondering zero beyond 50 yards anyway. If the enemy is beyond 50 you shouldnt be shootin, you should be hiding, evading, and getting on with your mission.;)

[zouavexx]

Originally posted by neilwest
1. From the little training I have I cant imagine why a soldiar in the jungle would be worring about wondering zero beyond 50 yards anyway. If the enemy is beyond 50 you shouldnt be shootin, you should be hiding, evading, and getting on with your mission.;)


Thats just common sense! ;)

[HerrdoktorSchuetzengruvin]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Since I mainly collect, I can't say the wandering zero is that big a deal to me.