History and evolution of the Ar-15

[AKWARRIOR]

In December of 1959, Colt acquired manufacturing and marketing rights to the AR-15. In 1962 Colt was able to get the Department of Defense's Advanced Research Project Agency (ARPA) to test 1,000 weapons in its Vietnam-oriented Project Agile. An enthusiastic report led to more studies from the Department of Defense and the Department of the Army, and despite strong Army opposition, Defense Secretary McNamara ordered 85,000 M16's for Vietnam, and 19,000 for the Air Force.

However, early reports showed that the M16 was not living up to expectations. These reports, presented to McNamara by the Ordnance Department, showed the M16 having reliability as well as accuracy problems. These reports in turn praised the Ordnance Department's own M14. While the M14 performed well, it was too heavy for the hot jungles of Southeast Asia, and its ammunition also would not allow more than 50-100 rounds to be carried on patrols, severely limiting its capabilities as an automatic weapon.

Further evaluation of the M14 and M16 was done by an independent agency. It concluded that M14 was not as bad as had been suggested by some, that the AR-15 itself was not as good as its proponents had represented it to be. However, they did note that the AR-15 had greater capability for improvement, and that its small size and weight made it a handier weapon in Vietnam.

The M16 was issued w/o proper training and inadequate cleaning supplies. Combined with the humid jungle of Southeast Asia, this caused problems and the rifle gained a bad reputation. Because tolerances were tighter than in previous military arms, the M16 had to be kept extremely clean. War correspondents filed reports where the M16 was jamming, and many were shown on the evening news. It was reported that our soldiers were being killed by a faulty rifle.

This led to Congressional investigations which turned up two related problems. First, the cleaning issue. As training was provided, supplies issued, and some redesign, M16 performed more reliably. The second issue dealt with the use of ball propellants instead of IMR propellants. Remington had developed the 5.56mm round using one type of powder, but the specification was changed during military contract production to allow an alternate. This powder caused more fouling and increased the rate of fire.



M16A1
The replacement of the powder, combined with a new buffer to slow rate of fire, a chrome plated chamber and barrel to improve rust resistance, a closed prong flash-hider, forward bolt assist, new buttstock w/storage for cleaning kit, and introduction of a 30-shot magazine was adopted as the M16A1 and performed well for the duration of the 60's and 70's. This rifle was also produced by GM and Harington & Richardson during Vietnam era as well as other countries including the Philippines.

M16A2
In the late 1970's, the Army re-examined it's rifle situation. Existing M16s were well worn, and the current programs that were looking into a replacement for the M16 were not far enough along. So in 1978, the M16 underwent a Product Improvement Program. The results were an increased barrel diameter, and one whose rifling was changed from 1:12 to 1:7 to accommodate the new round, developed by Belgium's Fabrique Nationale, the SS109. This round extended the range of the rifle, and propelled a 62gr bullet with a steel core at over 3000 fps. The rear sight was modified to allow more accurate adjustments of windage by hand, as well as for elevation calibrated out to 800 meters. It incorporated a case deflector to prevent brass from hitting left-handed firers, and new round handguards to replace the older triangular design. Also, full-auto capability was replaced with a three-shot burst. This allowed for more controlled firing, as well as greater accuracy as all three rounds are downrange before the effects of recoil can impact their path. This new rifle was adopted as the M16A2.

M4
In 1994, the U.S. Army officially adopted its second carbine of the 20th century. Though carbine versions of the M16 had been used all along (as the XM177 as well as the CAR-15), demand for these was limited to select groups. With the increase in the use of Special Operations forces during and after the Cold War, the demand for a shorter, lightweight weapon was increased. The M4 was developed by Colt's Manufacturing Company, and is intended to be used by Special Operations forces as well as other select members of the military. It is designed to replace a variety of carbines and SMGs in the Army's arsenal, as well as to repeat the accuracy and reliability of the M16A2. It uses a 14.5" barrel, and a four-position telescoping stock while maintaining the ability to mount an M203 grenade launcher. In the collapsed position, it measures under 30 inches, and weights just over 5 1/2 pounds, with an effective range of 600 meters. The M4 is available with 3-shot bursts (M4) as well as full-auto capabilities (M4A1). Both versions of the M4 are equipped with a Picatinny-Weaver Rail system to replace the carry handle. This allows for a variety of sighting systems to be mounted atop the receiver, from the standard handle with A2 sights to night-vision devices, scopes, and lasers.



M16A1

5.56x45mm M193
Length:39.00in
Weight Unloaded:6lbs 5oz
Barrel:20.00in,4 grooves right hand twist
Magazine:20-30 round detachable box
Cyclic rate:800rds/min
Muzzle Velocity:3250 ft/sec


M16A2

5.56x45 NATO
Length:39.625in
Weight Unloaded:7lb 14oz
Barrel:20.0in,6 grooves right hand twist
Magazine:30 round detachable box
Cyclic Rate:600-940 rds/min
Muzzle Velocity:3260 ft/sec

[recon]

Thanks!:cool:

[Skip]

In Nam my M16 had no cleaning compartment in the stock. There is no mention of the silver colored bolt and carrier to a parkerized one.:bigdeal:

[AKWARRIOR]

Originally posted by Skip
In Nam my M16 had no cleaning compartment in the stock. There is no mention of the silver colored bolt and carrier to a parkerized one.:bigdeal:

I used the M16A2 and M4 while I served.Funny I have handled several M16A1's which had the cleaning compartment in the buttstock.

Regards,

[Jeff Mack]

Neither the M16A1 I used in Basic or AIT in the 70s, nor the one I carried in the early 80s, had a trap door compartment for cleaning gear. I did see a few, but were not widely issued then.

[templar]

My 1964 manufactured Colt AR-15. First full year of production.

Colt made 23 in 1963, which went to Colt execs and the like.

http://album.gunsnet.net/data/templar/full_129_p643.jpg
http://album.gunsnet.net/data/templar/full_129_p644.jpg
http://album.gunsnet.net/data/templar/full_129_p645.jpg

[HDR]

Skip is correct. Never saw one with a kit in Vn.. Silver bolts were early issue.
Skip, don't forget the silver or gold anodized buffers.. :D


"severely limiting its capabilities as an automatic weapon"
Wasn't as much humping ammo as the weapon..

People that shoot MBR's on FA forget that in combat you don't have the time to get set up.
Your walking and surprise its shtf time.

Getting set and comfy, M14 works fine. Try FA running, jumping or whatever and don't forget ducking? FAL is better.

Article forgot McNamara's wiz kids said no chrome plating and it had nothing to do with rust.. You might need godzilla to pop one out of the chamber after a night...

M16 was a good weapon after 1966.

[Skip]

HDR, It's been over 30 years but I think the cheezie bi-pod carrier had a pouch that held the 3 piece cleaning rod.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by templar
My 1964 manufactured Colt AR-15. First full year of production.

Colt made 23 in 1963, which went to Colt execs and the like.
Templar, that's a beautiful specimen!!!!

Questions are zooooooming in my head right now :D

What is the bluebook on yours?
When did you buy it?
Do you shoot it? Or have you?
If you do, or have, what has the reliability been like?
How many offers have you had for it?

[777]

I was issued the A1 in basic in the early '80's. What I don't recall is whether the A1's had the "fence" around the mag release. Does anyone know when that change happened?

[sfc ret]

the M16A1 I had in germany, in 75...didn't have a trapdoor in the stock

[Boogieman]

Here's the "Cliff Notes" version of the history of the AR-15.


It was invented

..............................It jammed

It was redesigned

..............................It jammed

It was re-redesigned

..............................It jammed

:D :D :D

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Boogieman
Here's the "Cliff Notes" version of the history of the AR-15.


It was invented

..............................It jammed

It was redesigned

..............................It jammed

It was re-redesigned

..............................It jammed

:D :D :D Spoken with true bias and misinformation regarding historical fact... :rolleyes:

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
Spoken with true bias and misinformation regarding historical fact... :rolleyes:

1) First and foremost...get a sense of humor

2) The IS a reson it is refered to as "The Jammamatic"

3) I own 3...and I now own the second oldest AR-15 I know of
(serial SP025XX made in 1965)

4) Get a sense of humor:D

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Boogieman


1) First and foremost...get a sense of humor

2) The IS a reson it is refered to as "The Jammamatic"

3) I own 3...and I now own the second oldest AR-15 I know of
(serial SP025XX made in 1965)

4) Get a sense of humor:D It just kinda gets old hearing the same 'ole crap...

As a few here know, I have a great sense of humor :D:rotflmao::D

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
As a few here know, I have a great sense of humor :D:rotflmao::D

...I'd like to see proof of that;)

[Halo_1]

Howdy,

Here is a pic of the M16S1, made in Singapore, under license from COLT, by CIS.

It's still being used extensively by the majority of the Singapore Armed Forces, both Active and Reserve Units.

With the introduction of the SAR21, a copy of the Israeli Bullpup Rifle, the M16S1 is slowly being replaced with this new generation rifle. Though, thats gonna be awhile.

http://album.gunsnet.net/data/deadeye/379_p3268.jpg

[recon]

:cool:

[sfc ret]

Originally posted by Boogieman
1) First and foremost...get a sense of humor

2) The IS a reson it is refered to as "The Jammamatic"

3) I own 3...and I now own the second oldest AR-15 I know of
(serial SP025XX made in 1965)



you own 3 M16s????? or 3 AR15s?.....they are not the same guns.

[Boogieman]

Actually...now I own 1 AR...dumped the other 2. Yes...I know they are not exactly the same gun...but they both have the same problems.

[sfc ret]

Originally posted by Boogieman
Actually...now I own 1 AR...dumped the other 2. Yes...I know they are not exactly the same gun...but they both have the same problems.

you can't compare the M16 to the AR15, first off there are different manufaturers of the ARs...some build good rifles, and some don't (hesse).......and no matter what anybody tells you, ARs are not "mil-spec" so you really can't say they both have the same problems......I had a M16 during desert storm, where conditions are a lot harsher, and it didn't fail me when i needed it......so unless you can come up with a first hand account from personal experience on the M16 jamming, all you are doing is just bashing a rifle you have no experience in handling or firing.

I'll grant you that there are AR15 that jam, but that is more due to the maker of the rifle, then the action of it.

[Boogieman]

Call any shooting range that rents full auto. Ask them which of their rental machine guns has the most problems. Then contact any class 2 gunsmith...ask which full auto breaks the most.

It's strange...whenever anyone mentions that the M16/AR15 isn't the most reliable rifle out there...that there a durability issues with the M16/AR15...suddenly "gun guru's" appear claiming that they have the only valid observations.

I have asked this question at least a half dozen times...

Name a current general issue assault weapon less reliable/durable than the M16/M4 etc. Try to remember that the British gave up on that bullpup abortion.

The only intelegent response I've gotten is the Australian made AUG's.

The usual resopnses are..."YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT"..."YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE"..."Spoken with true bias and misinformation regarding historical fact"...and my favorite, "M14 is less reliable...and you are a dick".

One of my favorite "excuses" for M16/AR15 reliablity issues is, "the rifle works...it's just the magazine". That is a load of crap. The magazine is part of the weapon system. If the magazine doesn't work...that the rifle doesn't work.

And blaming the mag is pretty weak anyway. I have yet to buy a "bad" magazine that didn't work in my FN FNC.

[sfc ret]

I don't comsider my self as a "gun guru" I pointerd out a valid fact, you can't compare a AR15 to a M16.....no matter how hard you try, as for talking to rental places about the m16 problems.....come on now, rental guns are the most used and abused weapons, with little or no maintenace done to them....so your point about that is null. as for the gunsmith, what did you talk to every class 2 gunsmith in the country, about which rifle breaks the most???

point is the M16 is a excellent rifle, if you maintain it.....but then any weapon that isn't maintained will not function properly and is subject to jams etc...unless you can come up with first hand experience on the M16, your argument is just a rehash of the same old tired M16 bashing.

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by sfc ret
I don't comsider my self as a "gun guru" I pointerd out a valid fact, you can't compare a AR15 to a M16.


Of course I can. The m16 and AR15 have the same gas system and use the same magazines.


...no matter how hard you try, as for talking to rental places about the m16 problems.....come on now, rental guns are the most used and abused weapons, with little or no maintenace done to them.


Jeez...I hesitate to even commect on this...but here it goes...true, rental guns do not get the best of care...neither do weapons during combat. If a weapon cannot be reliable when used at a shooting range then why should anyone believe that the same weapon will be reliable under battle conditions. Come on...you are much smarter than that.


..so your point about that is null. as for the gunsmith, what did you talk to every class 2 gunsmith in the country, about which rifle breaks the most???


Actually I asked the only class 2 that I know personally...and a few I met at Knob Creek. And if you really want to see some failures go to a machine gun shoot at Knob Creek...or better yet...take a carbine course at one of the better training facilities. The only real experiance I have with M16's is watching them fail miserably when I took a carbine course at Blackwater. There were 8 or 9 students. I brought a Valmet 76, the was a Robinson M96, the rest were split between AR's and 3 or 4 LEO's with M16's or M4's. One LEO's M4 ran flawlwssly...he was clearly the best in the course...heck he was better than the instructors. Any time he wasn't shooting...he was cleaning (obviously understanding the weaknesses of his weapon). My Valmet and the M96 ran flawlessly (and the M96 was the most accurate rifle out there). All of the other AR types had problems. So I choose to learn from the mistakes of others...rather than make the mistakes myself.


point is the M16 is a excellent rifle, if you maintain it.



Absolutely. It's my second favorite. I just don't expect it to operate beyond it's capabilities.



....but then any weapon that isn't maintained will not function properly and is subject to jams etc



Uhh...yeah...it's just that the M16 needs so much more maintence.



...unless you can come up with first hand experience on the M16, your argument is just a rehash of the same old tired M16 bashing.


That's sorta' like saying, "If you've never been ass fucked, how do you know you won't like it".


Now could someone please answer the question...which current general issue assault rifle is less reliable than the M16?

[Rew]

bullpup, the Brits STILL use there bullpup (except for there Sp ops, they use the M4), both are less relibable. The AK in the hands of most 3ed world countires, sorry but it's true, I have seen it. The AUG if not maintaned correcty, the G3, does not even come close. The Galile(sp). Now I have used and trained with all the weapons above, without proper handleing they all will Jam. And none is any better than the current M4. None was Better than the M16A1 or A2. I know a dealer here in the springs, he loves the AR and knows more about it than anyone else I know. He'll read this, if he wants to chime in thats great, if not, I am about as close to an expert as ya get.

[turbotrailgod]

boogieman your alright in my book,but your points all fall on deaf ears cause its hard to admit your government would use a pos for as long as they have.64 crayons in a box and everyone has a favorite color,some people even call it theraputic to clean a gun.But they are good trading stock ,sports car or pick up truck the debate will go on forever and ever :rolleyes:

[sfc ret]

Jeez...I hesitate to even commect on this...but here it goes...true, rental guns do not get the best of care...neither do weapons during combat. If a weapon cannot be reliable when used at a shooting range then why should anyone believe that the same weapon will be reliable under battle conditions. Come on...you are much smarter than that.


Now I know your talking out your butt…… you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about……..a soldier maintains his weapons, wheather it’s a M16 to a artillery tube better then a rental gun range, whether in combat or in training, you're trying to compare professional soldiers to a bunch of people behind a counter renting a weapon to folks, and could give a shit less what kind of condition the weapon is in, just as long as the cash register goes KA-CHING....my personal experience with the M16A2 is it function if it is maintained and I had fired it in both training and a COMBAT enviroment..........you can go on and on about the faults on the M16, but like I said before, unless you have personal experience and not what you observed, your talking out your butt ....with that...this thread is going nowhere with your ‘insights” and "observations"from afar

[RJ Shooter]

Hmmmmmmm...

900+ rounds of South African surplus and still going. No internal cleaning as of yet. No malfunctions of ANY KIND as of yet. Variety of mags being used including old Parsons and Adventure Lines with black followers and bent floorplates.

Damn this weapon of mine is soooooo unreliable. :rolleyes:

http://www.netwalk.com/~rjandla/aknet/m4a3.jpg

btw, I've built and owned a few, so this one is not a fluke...

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by sfc ret
[b]Now I know your talking out your butt…… you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about

unless you have personal experience and not what you observed, your talking out your butt ....with that...this thread is going nowhere with your ‘insights” and "observations"from afar



Thanks for driving home my point about AR guys. Because your argument in indefensable...you feel the need to get personel. I thought that you were a whole lot smarter than that. Looks like I was wrong.

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by Rew
bullpup, the Brits STILL use there bullpup (except for there Sp ops, they use the M4), both are less relibable. The AK in the hands of most 3ed world countires, sorry but it's true, I have seen it. The AUG if not maintaned correcty, the G3, does not even come close. The Galile(sp). Now I have used and trained with all the weapons above, without proper handleing they all will Jam. And none is any better than the current M4. None was Better than the M16A1 or A2. I know a dealer here in the springs, he loves the AR and knows more about it than anyone else I know. He'll read this, if he wants to chime in thats great, if not, I am about as close to an expert as ya get.

Thanks for the INTELEGENT input. You are now the second person on a web site to respond with anything but..."FUCK YOU"..."YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT".

My personel research differs from yours a bit. For almost 3 years I compiled a fair amount of data, mostly corrospondences with former and current military (mostly Isralie) and class 2 gunsmiths. I've only found a few who prefer the m16 to whatever the used to use. Those who didn't care for the M16 usually gave very detailed reasons. I almost never get the standard, "the M16 is shit". They just seem to prefer something else. Those that prefered the M16 more often than not respond with the typical "FUCK YOU"..."YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT"...so it hasn't been easy to defend the M16. What issues did the rifles you mentioned have? A fellow I worked with was in the Isralie Army. He said that he and everyone he knew prefered the Galil. Yours are the first negitive comments I've heard about the G3...(OK weight)

I'd greatly appreciate any input.

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
Hmmmmmmm...

900+ rounds of South African surplus and still going. No internal cleaning as of yet. No malfunctions of ANY KIND as of yet. Variety of mags being used including old Parsons and Adventure Lines with black followers and bent floorplates.

btw, I've built and owned a few, so this one is not a fluke...

I have one I can't seem to jam either.

Here's an idea. Step on one of your magazines and see if it still works:D

[Rew]

me see if I can make sense here. The G3 has a rep for being self cleaning because of the fluted chamber that lets the case ride out on a chusion of gas. Sorry it just don't work that way, the rifle needs to be kept clean, and the German army, at least in the 80s, is not what it used to be. The Galil is used by rear deployed troops (or was) arty, supply, and such, the front line units use the M16/M4. The Galil is heavy, less accurate, and still has to be kept clean, why carry a weapon that fires the same ammo, is heaver and less accurate. Any bullpup has the problem of single shoulder use, (even my M17s which I love) sure, some can be switched from right to left, but not in the middle of a firefight. When one does jam, it takes 2 men and a small boy to get it working again.;). The AUG is the best of the lot, but those plastic mags, contray to popular belife, suck. All of them need to be kept clean. The AK-47 is a simple weapon for simple people, accuracy don't matter much, when ya spray in the gen. direction. However alot of the 3ed world countires that use them have no idea what a cleaning kit is. The controls suck, the sights suck, and it is still a good idea to keep the weapon clean. I gained these opinions as an NCO primarly concerned with weapons training. I also learned that just about all troops think the other guy has a better weapon than he has, till you show him diffirent.

[Pogo]

Originally posted by Boogieman
Here's an idea. Step on one of your magazines and see if it still works:D

Nope, not going to do that. That's why they issue you an ammo pouch.

If you stepped on the gas tube of the AK and slightly kinked it, the bolt carrier/gas piston won't function. But, the secret is to not lay your weapon or parts on the ground and step on them or lose them.

I carried the M-16 for years and never smashed a magazine. The only problems I experienced with the M16 was when it first was issued in Viet Nam.

You have to take care of your equipment. You can't be a Primitive Pete and expect modern equipment to function properly. Without proper maintenance an Abrams tank wouldn't move, and a F15 wouldn't fly. You can't expect anything to work properly without proper care and maintenance.

[Boogieman]

Originally posted by Pogo
If you stepped on the gas tube of the AK and slightly kinked it, the bolt carrier/gas piston won't function. But, the secret is to not lay your weapon or parts on the ground and step on them or lose them.


OK...Ijust stepped in my Yugo's gas tube. It still works.

If you don't want to step on you AR mag...how about you just drop it on the feed lips.:D

[Pogo]

Originally posted by Boogieman
OK...Ijust stepped in my Yugo's gas tube. It still works.



Uh huh, yeah right. I'm sure you did. :rolleyes:

[Boogieman]

OK Pogo...

Try using harsh language in the presence of your AR mags. Do you have at least that much confidence in them:D

[RJ Shooter]

Boogieman, give it a rest!!

Some of us have had M16 mags for 20 years and they still work. Go troll people somewhere else please...

[ErikJL]

I haven't shot the AR-15, but having just served 5 years in the Marines I've had ample opportunity to shoot the M16A2, and I can tell you that it jams more often than my SAR-1 does. If it's kept clean, it's fine. After about one hundred rounds though, the carbon builds up and you start getting jams. Towards the end of a day at the rifle range, people all around me are getting alibies to re-shoot the particular event because of jams, double-feeds etc.

[RJ Shooter]

Erik, http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111201

[Wing Commander Kermit]

When I was in Army ROTC (got hurt before I could get commissioned) I had two seperate A1's jam on me. One was a double feed with live rounds. The other I think was just the result of having the blank adaptor not screwed on right during an exercies.

Granted the weapon was from the local national guard armory so it was probably pretty old. But the 45th Light Infantry Brigade HQ company's equipment (thats what we used for weapons it was next door to the college) was pretty squared away nonetheless.

I like the M16 but that left a bad taste in my mouth.

If I can ever decied to part with about 1500 and pay for the tax stamp I might buy an m16 one day or save a little and pay 800 for an AR 15. But until then if I buy an "assault rife" I will probably go with an AK clone. Low cost, low maintence.

[Circuits]

Originally posted by Wing Commander Kermit
If I can ever decied to part with about 1500 and pay for the tax stamp I might buy an m16 one day or save a little and pay 800 for an AR 15. But until then if I buy an "assault rife" I will probably go with an AK clone. Low cost, low maintence.

Better add at LEAST $5000 to that M16 estimate for a no-name brand conversion from a semi AR-15. A real M16A1 will run you closer to $6000-$10000 more than your $1500 estimate depending on markings, configuration and condition.

[recon]

This needs to be a sticky!

[NC_Rebel]

Yeah, it does........

[KurtsKustom]

RJ, looks like I'm on the right track with my bullpups!

[jnewt]

I have seen some M16A1 rifles selling for $14000..... Hell a PreBan AR in M4 configuration will run about $2000 New post ban Colts run about $950

[haze99]

To answer the post from 777, I believe the "fence" as you called was introduced in 1966/1967. Later model XM-16E1's and then the M-16A1 have it. However, depending on the Depot rebuild I had seen at least one lower receiver stamped XM-16E1 which did not have this feature. It appearantly was a 1965~1966 made rifle.

[xdrkwonx]

I can't wait till I get my RRA M4rgery so that I can actually contribute to this conversation...

[John Kennedy]

I had to get in on this one, finally. In basic I was issued an M16A1 that looked like an abortion of every mixed part available at the time. The poor thing rattled like a loose chain and probably saw more abuse than Bing Crosby's kid. Being a shooter before I joined (mainly my 8mm mauser, .22 and M1 carbine) I kept it clean and maintained. EVERY time I attempted to fire this weapon it worked. Every time. Not a single failure. Qualified no problem. Fired three mags full-auto (during a night exercise) in under a minute. NO problems. Got issued an M16A2 in Germany and again at Ft. Campbell. NEVER had a failure of any kind. NEVER ONE.

Bear in mind, even in Saudi and Iraq (and you guys that were there know how crappy it was around the Euphrates that time of year) I kept the weapon clean as I could and rotated disassembly and cleaning of my magazines. I never had an issue with the M16 rifles.

I've had a Colt, a Bushie and an old PWA CAR15 since then and NEVER had a failure. Not with surplus, not even with Wolf, which is good, reliable ammo in my experience. I am picky about using only GI mags-Parson, Adventure Line, Okay, Sanchez, etc. and have no desire to use cheap aftermarket mags, so that may help. Regardless, both the M16 and AR15 series weapons I've had work. In my experience, they have worked every time.

By the way, as for the G3 (which I have qualified on like many GI's and fired with the Bundeswehr on many occasions) is very accurate and looks cool. But, every time we had opportunity to go on an FTX with the Germans, you could watch those rifles rust before your eyes. They are impossible to maintain in the field. Our partnership German unit had a few Uzi's, too. The first time I noticed one was because it hit the mud, falling off the back of a dispatch rider because the crappy weld on the sling post busted.

I've taken enough time up with this. Simply put, I've trusted my life to the M16 and would again. It is a fine weapon in the hands of a TRAINED person.

[Rew]

"I am a Jelly Doughnut" Yup thats what I would tell people whan they asked if I was "hardcore" " Yes SIR!! just like a jelly donut, SIR" ;)

[John Kennedy]

Crack a history book. Reference Berlin, early 60's-you'll find that a certain U.S. president made a speech about the Berlin Wall while there using the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" (I am a Berliner, which is a German nickname for a Jelly doughnut) instead of the more correct "Ich bin Berliner" (I am a Berliner).

Being one of the few on Gunsnet that uses his real name as a log-in, I took the opportunity to use this tagline that I have been hearing from people my whole life, in an attempt at a bit of self-depricating humor.

Regardless, I'm sure most of the members here got the joke. It's a real shame it doesn't seem "hardcore" enough for you, but I don't think I'll lose too much sleep over the issue. Funny how after all the good discussion and info over at AKnet, my first post here at AR15 got this reply...:rolleyes:

Seriously, though-short of a few trolls you guys have here, you got a great site with alot of info. I wish I'd started looking around here sooner. :up:

[recon]

I have a preban Bushey that has never jammed! Mags and ammo of all kinds no problem! Haven't cleaned since my last shoot! Went out an put a few rds thru it! Worked perfectly! Also Kurt Custom Firearms looks to have the fix for the M16/AR15! Check out his forum!

[Epinephrine]

I have never used my AR to defend myself or any loved ones, and I hope I never will but I can say something for it as far as reliability.

Recently, many of you know I just purchased 4000 rounds of IMI M193 (Winchester White Box Q3131A) and shot 1000 rounds without failure 3 weeks ago. Besides being a black(er) mess inside, and a foul smell, it funtioned fine.

Yesturday, I went out to my range and shoot 2500 rounds. Again, no failures. Only difference between this time and last time was that the fouling and other residue was DRIPPING out of my gun. :eek: My hands were black and the other shooters came up and looked at my gun. It had gotten so filthy that after 2000 rounds, it started SPITTING black crap out of the gas ports on the bolt!:eek: My buddy got hit with black sludge and started calling me every name under the sun. After that, there was a 15 foot gap between me and any other shooter on the range.

I dont know about the 'Nam era M16 except from what I have read and heard, but if this dosent say something about reliability of the current M16/AR15, nothing will!

[5.56NATO]

Some more history re the AR:
Stoner (at the time he was developing the round) asked an editor at guns n ammo mag to develope a cartridge that would perform thusly: keep a .22 cal, 55gr pill supersonic at 500 meters from a 20 inch bbl. They started with the most suitable Remington chambering, and it became the father of the 5.56mm round. Just added powder to it till they got the velocity that was desired, then lengthened the case .25in to make it right per the powder needed.
What they wanted was a round that was barely stabilised by the original 1:14 twist rate, and was still supersonic at 500mtrs. A 1:14 twist causes almost unimaginable tumbling of the round on contact with, oh, say, a human body, creating wounds far out of proportion with its .22 cal. The reason the twist rate was at first changed was due to accuracy performance in extremely cold weather, the 1:14 not providing enough to be considered acceptable for any US Rifle. Think about if we had to fight at the outskirts of Moscow in -30% weather with a 1:14 rate. Well, that's what they considered. So they changed it to 1:12, and that was us till the M16A2.

Just some stuff i remember reading on the subject.

[Epinephrine]

I love lil history lessons. I never even knew Stoner was resposible (in some way) for the 5.56. I thought he just built a sporting rifle around a round that teh military had been thinking about producing...

YOu always learn somrthing no matter how much you think you know!

[thedaledoe]

Jesus H bananas epi.. How can you afford to go thru that much ammo??? :eek: :thud:

[Epinephrine]

I saved up somewhere around $12,000 over the summer working 3 jobs. How else do you think I could buy an AR and then a month later spend $2200 on it and THEN buy my ammo? :D :lol:

[thedaledoe]

Well i worked over the summer and made like 3400.. all of which i spent on guns and my million bills i have every month. Might do some fire fighting next summer and make some bookoo bucks.

[Epinephrine]

One great way to rake in dome decent doe if you dont mind fecal matter and spit is to become a Cetified Nures Assistant and work at a Nursing home. I worked at 2 nursing homes plus McDonalds. Nursing homes paid around $9.50 after taxes in my area. Local McDonalds was paying $7 starting out for awile.

[thedaledoe]

i make 9 or 9.5 before taxes working for my parents. But i dont plan on doing that anymore. Depending on the season and the crew you get on. A person can make anywhere between 6-12 grand for 2-3 months of work fighting fire. I know a guy that ended up spending most of the summer in Alaska and he made about 16 grand in 2 months. :eek:

[pbrad911]

I'd grab an M16 before anything, I own several AK's, Fal's, G3's and AR's The M16 is the weapon I went RVN with so I know it inside & out Can field strip it in the dark without springs flying all over the place, The .556 has got to be one of the most tissue damaging rounds ever produced the 7.62 has more penitrating power but just leaves a hole threw and threw,The .556 goes in small and takes everthing with as it leaves. As far as the AR not being the same weapon there close the M16 has more milling and fire control parts, But the Ar has less bolt material, The early jamming was mostly due to poor Ammo which was not always within toulerance, Some of the early ammo had a very rounded projectile that tended to get crossed up when going into the feed ramp. I personally had serveral problems and when I compared a ball round to our tracers which feed fine I saw the problem.

[BaDAppLe]

pbrad911 welcome to Gunsnet! ...pbrad911 is right on track with the fact back in the day, I read and truely believe the ammo was much of the problem that caused the M16 the bad rap it has.It was mostly because of the powder that was used and it didnt burn as clean as it should of, so then it gummed up and caused the notorious jams we all heard of.The soldiers were tossed into the field with very little info on correct maintaince of the M16A1.....the powder issues was soon figured out and changed along with on the spot training of troops on a proper maintaince routine and schedule.

[John Kennedy]

I recently built an M4gery on a RRA lower and fired about 800 rds through it (ask Partisan1983 or Corpsie, they saw it, too) without cleaning OR lubrication. NO problems whatsoever. The AR/M16 is a fantastic platform. I love my AK's, but I trust my AR's to function just as well.

[recon]

Still a great weapon!

[recon]

:cool:

[haze99]

The USAF purchased the Colt Model-602, M-16 in 1964. (the US Navy recieved a small number of these for testing and fielding.)
The US Army obtained the Colt Model-603, XM-16E1 (with Foward Assist) Improvements brought about the M-16A1. (later production Model-603's!) This is the same production rifle used by the US Marine's, Navy and Coast Guard.
The USAF kept the 602 and later got Model-604, still keeping the M-16 designation (604 was indentical to M-16A1, but WITHOUT forward assist)

The Colt Model-607 was obtained in small numbers by the US Navy, which fielded them for a short time by SEAL teams. (I have seen two of these, in two Army museums, but have found no data as to Army fielding.)

The Colt Model-609, (termed Commando by Colt) was taken by the Army, which designated it XM-177E1. The USAF obtained the Model-610, designating it as GAU-5/A. Although, in the USAF is was termed a Sub-Machine Gun and not a carbine! (some photos reference this as the XM-177.) Although this model does not have a forward assist. *From my research, the XM-177E1 was issued with a manual that had CAR-15 on it. So soldiers and saliors began using this term for it. (USAF personnel would not use this designation.)
Improvments were made, Colt made the Model-629, which the Army and Navy obtained. It is the XM-177E2. The USAF got the Colt Model-630, it is the GAU-5A/A. (difference NO forward assist) *The XM-177E2 was still refered to as the CAR-15 by soldiers and saliors, although this is incorrect.

Part 2 of the last post!

All rifles and carbines listed previously were used through the rest of the 1970's. (the only new introduction was the Colt Model-653 carbine.) Which was not adopted, although the US Navy and US Army obtained limited numbers to supplment XM-177E1 and XM-177E2 stocks. NOTE! None of these were fielded to the fleet or line-formation, only to SOF units. (The USAF obtained some as well, to supplement their GAU-5/A and GAU-5A/A stocks.) My research to date, does not have the USAF giving this a GAU designation!

*Although, at some point the USAF bought Colt Model-649's. As with the Model-653 introduction, I am not aware of an offical designation for this model? NOTE! Around early 1990's, (after Desert Storm) the USAF started to upgrade its GAU stock, with a new 14.5 inch, 1/7 twist, "M-4" style barrel. These are designated GUU-5/P. This was not done at one time, with all GAU's. So in some units you could have found all three models being issued to airmen! Go figure?

In 1988, the USMC and Army introduced the M-16A2, (Colt Model 645) since this had the improved 1/7 rifling for the 52. grain, M-855 ball round. Both branches, turned in their M-16A1 rifles. US Army SF and Ranger Regt, also turned in all their "CAR-15" models. (this may come as a surprise to some of you!) The USAF continued to use their M-16, GAU-5/A and GAU-5A/A stocks, past this time period. Even up to the late 1990's! (BTW, some ANG units are still using Colt Model-602, M-16 rifles, today!) Don't ask! Although, the USAF began to upgrade their M-16's to M-16A2's starting in 1998(?) and are still in the process today!

[Epinephrine]

:bump:

Lets keep this thread going people, there has got to be people out there with even more valuable info!

[recon]

Colt's Manufacturing Company
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rampant Colt—The original logo of Colt's FirearmsColt's Manufacturing Company (CMC) is a United States firearms manufacturer founded in 1847. It is best-known as the manufacturer of the "Colt .45" revolver, the proper name of which was the Single Action Army. Later well-known CMC revolvers include the Colt Python and Colt Anaconda.

In 2002, Colt Defense was split off from Colt's Manufacturing Company. Colt Manufacturing Company now serves the civilian market, while Colt Defense serves the law enforcement, military, and private security markets worldwide. Prior to the split Colt was also well known for their production (now taken over by Colt Defense) of the M1911 automatic pistols, M4 carbines, M16 assault rifles, and M203 grenade launchers, although none of these were Colt designs.

Contents
1 History
1.1 1847-1911
1.2 1911-1984
1.3 1984-1992: A Period of Decline
1.4 1992-Present
1.4.1 The Boycott
1.4.2 Competition Heats Up
2 See also
3 External links

History

1847-1911
CMC was founded in Hartford, Connecticut in 1847 by Samuel Colt in order to produce revolvers, which Colt held the patent on, during the Mexican-American War. Colt's earlier venture, the Patent Arms Manufacturing Company, had declared bankruptcy in 1842 and was no longer producing firearms, but the efficiency of the revolver design had become apparent to the US Army and they sought out the young entrepreneur to produce more.

Colt's early history largely revolved around the production of revolvers, developed out of Sam Colt's original 1836 invention of the revolver. Colt is perhaps best known for the famous "Colt .45", a name which actually refers to two separate historically significant firearms. The first of these is the aforementioned Single Action Army, of which Colt was the original producer, and which was one of the most prevalent firearms in the American West during the end of the 19th century. Colt still produces this firearm, though now they are available only as a Custom Shop offering. All original, good condition first generation Single Action Armys, those produced between 1873 and 1941, are among the most valuable to the collector. Especially valuable, often going for well over $10,000, are the OWA and the Nettleton Single Action Army Colts.

The OWA Colt refers to the earliest issued Single Action Armys which were inspected by Orville W. Ainsworth. O.W. Ainsworth was the ordnance sub-inspector at the Colt factory for approximately the first thirteen months (Oct. 1873 to Nov. 1874) of the Single Action Army's production. It was Ainsworth that inspected the Colts used by General Custer's 7th Cavalry troops at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. However General Custer himself fell holding a couple of Schofield revolvers (made by rival gunmaker Smith & Wesson) in his hands.

Henry Nettleton was the ordnance inspector in 1878 at the Springfield Armory. Second only to the OWA Colts, Nettleton Colts are prized by serious collectors. Both the Nettleton and OWA Colts will have the cartouche (OWA or HN) on the left side of the wood grip.

The Single Action Army has been copied by numerous makers both in America and in Europe. The two major makers of Colt replicas are Aldo Uberti in Italy and United States Firearms Mfg. Co. in Hartford, Connecticut. Both companies make superb replicas that are much more affordable than the real Colt (for those who don't have to have the "real thing").

1911-1984
The second famous "Colt 45" is the John Browning-designed M1911, which was the standard US military sidearm from 1911 to 1985. The M1911 is still frequently used by civilians, law enforcement, and military agencies today.

The 1960s were boom years for Colt with the escalation of the Vietnam War, Robert McNamara shutting down the Springfield Armory, and the US Army's subsequent adoption of the M16 (which Colt held the production rights to).

1984-1992: A Period of Decline
The 1980s marked the beginning of Colt's decline. Colt had long left innovation in civilian firearms to their competitors, feeling that the handgun business could survive on their traditional double-action revolver and M1911 designs. Instead, Colt focused on the military market, where they held the dominant contracts for production of rifles and pistols for the US military.

This strategy dramatically failed for Colt through a series of events in the 1980s. In 1984, the US military standardized on the Beretta 92F and ended the nearly 75 year production of the M1911. Meanwhile, the military rifle business was shrinking since the US Military did not have a major demand for more M16s, leaving Colt with fewer reliable streams of profit.

In 1986 Colt's workers, members of the United Auto Workers went on strike for higher wages. This strike would ultimately last for four years, and was one of the longest running labor strikes in American history. With replacement workers running production, the quality of Colt's firearms began to slip. Dissatisfied with Colt's production, in 1988 the US military awarded the contract for future M16 production to Fabrique Nationale.

With the loss of both their primary military handgun and rifle markets, Colt had little hopes of survival but to turn to the civilian handgun market. Unfortunately, Colt's range of handgun products in the late 1980s was critically out of touch with the demands of the market, and their once-vaunted reputation for quality had suffered during the UAW strike. Colt's stable of double action revolvers and single action pistols were seen as old fashioned by a marketplace that was captivated by the new generation of "wondernines" - high-capacity, 9mm caliber handguns, as typified by the GLOCK 17.

Realizing that the future of the company was at stake, labor and management agreed to end the strike in an arrangement that resulted in Colt being sold to a group of private investors, the State of Connecticut, and the UAW itself.

The new Colt first attempted to address some of the demands of the market with the production in 1990 of the Double Eagle, a double action pistol based heavily on the M1911 design which was seen as an attempt to "modernize" the classic Browning design. Colt followed this up in 1992 with All American 2000, which was unlike any other handgun Colt had produced before.

The All American 2000 was a polymer framed, rotary bolt, 9mm handgun with a magazine capacity of 15 rounds. It was everything that Colt thought the civilian market wanted in a handgun. Unfortunately, the execution was terrible. Early models were plagued with inaccuracy and unreliability, and suffered from the poor publicity of having to be recalled. The product launch failed and production of the All American 2000 ended in 1994.

All of the above ultimately led to the company's chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1992.

1992-Present

The Boycott
In 1994, the assets of Colt were purchased by Zilkha & Co, a financial group owned by Donald Zilkha. Zilkha's financial backing of the company, combined with his connections to the Democratic Party, enabled Colt to begin winning back military contracts. Profits from these contracts were to be used to again attempt to regain their share of the civilian market, but it was not to be.

During a 1998 newspaper interview, CEO Ron Stewart stated that he would favor additional gun control at the federal level. This, in combination with the growing revelations of Zilkha's ties to anti-gun factions of the Democratic Party, led to a massive grass-roots boycott of Colt's products by gun stores and ordinary gun owners, some of whom sold their Colt firearms to cut into Colt's market share even more. This ultimately led to the resignation of Ron Stewart.

Zilkha replaced Stewart with Steven Sliwa and focused the remainder of Colt's handgun design efforts into "smart guns", a concept which was favored politically but had little interest or support among handgun owners. This research never produced any meaningful results due to the limited technology at the time.

Competition Heats Up
Most problematic for Colt, its flagship 1911 pistols and AR-15 rifles had to compete with a glut of the company's own used rifles and pistols that could be purchased at prices well below what Colt offered for their new products on the civilian market.

Colt also has to compete with other companies that make 1911-style pistols such as Kimber and AR-15 rifles such as Bushmaster. Bushmaster has subsequently overtaken Colt in the number of AR-15s sold on the civilian market.

Colt suffered a stinging legal defeat in court when it sued Bushmaster for copyright infringement claiming that the "M4" in M4 Carbine was a trademark that it owned. The judge ruled that since the term M4 is a government designation, it is in the public domain and Colt does not own the rights to the designation. Colt had to pay monetary reimbursement to Bushmaster to recoup Bushmaster's legal fees.

Colt today is a shadow of its former self. It survives primarily on the manufacturing of military weapons based on other companies' designs, and on the continuing production of classic Colt designs which are sold primarily in the limited collector's market.

[gearhead537]

Dear Fellow Members-Shot a buddies Howa AR-180 and loved it!Very accurate and good ergonomics.Why did Stoner develope the AR-180 after the M16,if not for a replacement of the M16?Not trolling here-more curious than anything else-Gearhead

[Epinephrine]

Stoner gave up on the direct gas system and went to pistons. The AR18 (AR180 in civi form) was the result. it was never ment as a replacement for the AR15, it was just a new devlopment. The AR15 is Stoners masterpiece but he still designed new guns. Mr. Kalashinakov's best knowm work is the AK, but he also designed the PK(M) Machine gun.

[gearhead537]

All this time I thought that it was considered an improvement over the Lungmann gas system and the original M16 design.-Gearhead

[haze99]

Update!
The US did adopt the Colt Model-653, known as the M-16A1 Carbine. Once the Army switched to the M-16A2 these were pulled from the racks. (Although, US Navy SEAL Team's and Air Force airmen continued to use them up 'til they transitioned to the Model-727 carbine.)
After confering with my source, the verdict is still out on whether the USAF purchased the Model-630 or Model-649, designating it GAU-5A/A. (GAU-5A/A identical to XM-177E2, although minus forward assist.)

[ruskiegunlover]

I rarely come over to this side, because I am an AK fan.
I like AR's, enjoy shooting them on my family's land (brother in law and friend own them). But come on guys. To claim they are that reliable? I can except they are, with heavy cleaning, but as a combat weapon? Maybe one that had loose tolerances....
And everyone here says that the 3rd world country aks jam all the time...They are popular because they are cheap, yes, but not because they jam. No one wants a rifle they can't trust. Its funny......How often do you hear about american vets seeing an enemy's rifle jam during combat? I have never heard (although I am sure I am about to) of say, a vietnam vet, seeing a VC trying to clear a jam on his ak in combat....Oh sure, its probably happened, but no where near the number of times it did early on with the ar15. And the fact that I have literally never heard of it.....And considering the Ak has been in combat for over ten years longer the the ar, thats a better record.
I like AR's, but I am sorry, I do not believe they are that good.

[5.56NATO]

I would take a loose shot-out AR over a new ak any day.

[slugger6]

As a sniper with the First Cav in Vietnam I was issued a modified M-16 (bipod, 4x scope, silencer). In addition I had an M-14 and a Remington Model 700 both modified for sniper duty. On my second combat tour I carried a CAR-15. Throughout two tours I never had a single malfunction with my ARs. We did capture a VC one day when his AK jammed as he engaged us by fire.

[recon]

:big:

[bullseye45]

Can You Please Tell Me If The A-15 Rifle Is The Same Thing As A Ar-15.i Recently Rec.a A-15 But It Does Not Have A Magazine.the Gun Looks To Be New And Never Fired.

[M700Police]

:Welcome: to the board!


Have a picture of the rifle or the markings? I know DPMS makes an A-15 toy "Airsoft" rifle.

[Blubaru]

Cool read!

[recon]

Great info!

[poolboy]

I now have an AR15, along with 5 other .223 units. I carried the M14 in VN, 66-67, not in a line unit. Based on some of the information and bad press, i hadn't been to interested in owning one and not doing much with my guns for 15 years or so. I became more interested going to gun shows and talking to neighbors who also bought one. I have a question on current loads for the AR. I usually shoot the H380 powder with the 55grn bullets. I also (in the earlly 80's) got hold of bulk lots of 38 grn, 22 mag bullets that I reload. My costs then were around .06 a round or less buying in bulk. I still am working off that batch of purchases.
I also have alot of 2400 powder and found one Hodgon book that gives a loading for the powder. I want to use up some of that powder. Has anyone tried the 2400 for .223 loads?
As for the history comment. When I had "5 days and a flight date left", I was on a work party that unloaded many Marine KIA that were caught in an ambush north of Tamky. One kid, for sure, maybe two, had rods jammed down the muzzle with the rifles laying the ponchos. At 63, this is still a haunting memory.
I was told by FO's that some patrols were hit and the VC didn't haul off those units. I later read articles on the powder etc, and the changes on the rifles for the better. I have a very good publication on the rifles now and wouldn't have second thoughts about packing it in combat.
Enough said, just thought I would throw that memory out there. Haven't really said much about that all these years.
I have so much admiration for our young people today that have the courage and dedication to be in the military. That's the "Warrior Business". I don't think much of anyone that lacks the courage to serve the country.
I am aware of all the changes and was surprised last year when I went to a gun show and became more aware of the interest in the rifles.
Done, won't bother you again with this stuff....