start an argument on ak vs ar

[scalawag]

first fellas nothing personel, second a buddy of mine bought a new BM and it jammed 2 or 3 shots out of 10. its getting better as we shoot it. i found that per the bushmaster site that this is a common problem. thats why i will never own one of stoners political pieces of shit. if he werent worried about getting rich we would have something like an ak chambered for the 223. and goten noone killed trying to make it work. hell per general tommy franks our boys in afganistan clean there ars 3 times a day. look at the way its designed, when a round freezes in the chamber for whatever reason you got to stick a rod down the barrel to poke it out. my uncle was in nam , he showed me some pics of an ak with the bolt rusted shut. he kicked the bolt open with his boot, on that handy bolt handle that the ar doesnt have, and unloaded a 30 shot clip full auto. lite weight was one of the ar's selling factors, yea right. the a2's are almost as heavy as a battle rifle if not the same. now the mp5 could have been done away with if we had some decent mech. engineers over here. like having the krinkov in a 45 acp. they chamber the .410 shotgun shell for the ak. i will never be sold on anything political. the 9mm and ar is.

[Lenny]

I got lucky then....I got zero jams till around 500 or so rnds in my BM. So I guess I am lucky. I have had a good amount of success out of my AK too. I guess I am not in Afghanistan either so I don't have to clean it 3 times a day. And I only have to clean mine once a week. Respectfully, Lenny

[Circuits]

I've never had a "jam" (you don't say what a jam constitutes - failure to feed? failure to extract? failure to eject?) with my factory bushmaster using good mags and anything by Wolf 62gr russian steel-cased ammo.

I did have some failures to feed with the crappy aftermarket mags I bought, in my innocence, along with that first bushmaster XM15-E2S, but only 1 or 2 every 100 rounds even then.

With USGI 20 and 30 round mags and anything but 62gr Wolf ammo, that particular rifle is 99.99% reliable.

I have had other feed and extraction failures, on occasion, with the many different AR's I own now - due to various combinations of ammo, bad mags, and how dirty the system gets.

My Colt Sporter II has NEVER had a failure of any kind related to firing.

I've had numerous failures with both of my AK's, on the other hand - most with the .223 SAR3 - and those were mag-related.
My SAR2 has occasionally had a failure to extract, 2 rounds out of about 3000 fired, for no apparent reason.

As for your "bolt rusted shut story"... if the extractor's still on the round, you can clear the stuck case with the charging handle, same as on the AK. If the extractor's off the case rim, the AK enjoys no advantage over the AR - you still have to push it out with a rod if you can't get the extractor claw to stick on the rim.

The infamous "dirty, malfunctioning M16" of the early vietnam era was mostly a result of the ill-advised change in powders the Army made to get more velocity and save money, and the lack of chrome lined bore and chamber for a rifle in service in a jungle environment. The AK bore and chamber is chrome-lined for the same reason, and I doubt the AK would put up with the amount of abuse it endures if the russian ordnance board had messed with kalashnikov's design the way the US Army ordnance board messed with Stoner's design.

[UGACherokee]

My SAR-2 came from the factory with the rear-sight assembly, gas block, and fsb aligned perfectly. But they're all about 5 degrees misalighned c-cw from the recevier. Accurate as hell; no failures of any kind. I'm looking to give it some company with a VEPR K in .223, a SAR-1 or Maadi (once I learn some smithing skills) and a pre-ban Chinese of some description.

I haven't put a single round downrange with my Armalite M-15A2 because the upper is back at the factory getting the compensator replaced. Not putting it down for that, just saying that I don't have enough recent exp. with the ARs to make a judgement on them.

[PBR]

The charging handle on an AR is just as good for clearing jams as the AK's. Pull back on the handle while hitting the butt on the ground clears all the jams I have ever had. Of course if you want to use your boot I guess the AK has the advantage :p

Rifles are tools. Some tools dont require skills or maintance to use
(Hammers and AK's) Some do (Machine tools and AR's)
It all depends on what you wan to do with them. I own both. I wouldnt trade either of them.

Of course if you want to argue I say my FAL beats them both !:cool:

[Rew]

I love stories about other people, ie, my uncle, my father, my grandfather, a friend of mine. Well as an Infantry plt Sgt in the gulf during the gulf war, I (horror or horrors) picked up jammed AKs from the bodies of Iraq's finiest troops, the repubilcan guard. Seems they fell for the "Aks don't need to be cleaned" BS too. My troops cleaned there M16A2, every chance they got, its called training, if you are not sleeping and you are not on watch or on some other duty, before you take time for yourself you take care of your weapon, because if SFC Williams found out you did not, you were in deep shit. I did not hear this form my uncle, father, brother, sister, or a good friend, I am SFC Williams.

Rew

[Lenny]

SFC Williams, You have me feelin bad for neglecting mine!LOL.
Respectfully, Lenny

[scalawag]

didnt say it didnt need to be cleaned, just said it would go through a hell of alot more than an ar would. i am trying to find the pics the same pics have him holding a vc's head he had cut off and he had stuck a cig. in the heads mouth and propped a smile on it. thats how serious he was. he never told a lie as long as i can remember. and looking at the design of the weapons. i have to agree. you see mr. ak himself was driven by patriotism, love of his country in making the design, not getting rich. you cant get rich in russia remember. then you couldnt anyway. over here politics and money talk then someone dies to see if something works, and or the new world order plays a part. o yea and by the way I AM WHAT IS KNOWN AS A PROFESSIONAL CIVILIAN. My code of conduct is dictated by logic, and common sense dictates my logic. the world is one big grocery store to me. anything you need is here, where else would it be? The ak variants were born directly because of war, not a get rich scheme. If some guys want to pay 700 to 1500 bucks for a tool, more power to them. did you buy it out of pride or common sense?

[Lenny]

????I paid $730. for my AK.I paid $825. for my AR. IMHO not a whole lotta difference. So I musta got ripped off cuz I paid so much for my AK? Ofcourse I bought my AK 1st., I dont remember if capitalism or communism had anything to do with it though? Oh
yeah I didnt buy either of them out of pride or common sense..I bought them cuz I wanted them.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Rew
......before you take time for yourself you take care of your weapon...... I am SFC Williams.I am sorry SFC Williams! I will strive to do better SFC Williams! I don't want to be in deep shit SFC Williams!

You hit the nail on the head Rew! Cleanliness is next to godliness :)

[scalawag]

well then sounds like to me that you got ripped off cause you wanted too. i paid 0 for mine. got ammo for the same. and not because i wanted them. was given to me, because he thought i should have them.

[Lenny]

Actually you were the one who got ripped off. You paid for them..See your hard earned tax dollars pay me twice a month and give me a free house and pay for my trash and water and all the other nice things associated with a house. I have a car payment of my own and thats 'bout it. So anytime you want to drop by and see the AK you paid "too much" for it'll be in my safe and you can see. I'll keep taking those paychecks you give me for defending your country and buy what I like. And honestly I do appreciate it. Respectfully, Lenny

[Lenny]

Hey if you think this is about money brother your wrong. I dont understand why you would come on to this site and try and tell someone why they should or should not own something? Wow I really thinks it is truely great you were able to obtain an AK for free. But the ONLY reason you even posted this thread was to get a argument going. I guess thats what you got huh?
I'd like to think of it as a debate but whatever. Is it everything you hoped for?

[scalawag]

yea ok.......................i wanted to argue. just because thats all. but here is a rebutle. did you know that we are not supposed to have a standing army. that was one of our founding fathers worst fears. and you screw heads are doing exactly like they said you would if one were allowed to stand. dont take my word for it. look at your own training. down to the very m16 you are issued. all american citizens are supposed to have the same access to weapons that government has. we are supposed to be the gov. but through time the american people have taken it as a given. now our military, you, can come under direct leadership from the U.N..........since when was that legal. the supreme court has ruled that no signed treaty outweights the constitution. when you go to battle, who are you really fighting for? see.....politics have gotten into the military now and have been for along time. dont you people ever question the orders you are given? one guy did in europe i hear. he wouldnt wear a U.N. flag on his shoulder. Clinton got rid of him. the guy was legal in every since. but thats not what was told. i admire the militarys disipline. always have. but someone somewhere in this country along time ago put something in peoples head that only the gov. can do whats right. i amazes me. and your not going to change it no one can. it has gotten to where is this country noone is paying attention, and they want to keep what they got but and dont carehow they are being used in every facet of life and they think it is normal.
you see back15 yrs. ago i was gung ho military career minded. scored extremely high in various test by the military ASVAB, NSI, etc. but one day i was listening to my shortwave. there was a guy in new york he had died of exposure in cardboard boxes. the cops done a check on him they found that had won the congessional medal of honor in WWII., and various other awards. the point is he had died in cardboard boxes. he couldnt have done more for this country and he died living in boxes. was on regular news about 10 seconds. ever since then i have changed. i am now a doubting thomas, it is my right to dig and question any known law that somehow doesnt make sense, and anyone that would enforce those same laws. thats how you find out what is really going on. a machine doesnt. it will do anything you tell it too. that is what real freedom is. and i have found that there is only one set of laws that all men should go by. The Bible. Man can not live in total freedom, we all have to go by natures laws, gravity, ecology, etc. but man started messing up when he wrote his own laws for whatever reason. should have stayed simple.......the bible.

[Lenny]

I dont doubt for a second that you are a very smart man. I dont doubt what you say is true to some extent. I for one think the war in Vietnam lasted for as long as it did becuase of the manufacture of war time good. Yes, keep backing the war so you can sell the gov't more grenades,bombs and c-rations. So there are I certainly agree with you. My intentions are not to attack you on that. I just wanted you to know that I dont agree with you on why some one might decide on one weapon or another. To tell you the truth, it may seem silly to others about our debate. I will say you have made some good points. I am glad you posted the thread. Respectfully,
Lenny

[windwalker]

O.k. they are both good guns but when it comes to price and functabilty the ak wins hands down and yes you paid to much for both of them.:bigdeal:

[Lenny]

So without seeing my AK you can without a doubt say I paid too much?

[windwalker]

Too me yes it is too much.You probally have it loaded with extra's that don't make adamn bit of difference to me.Look though that is my opinion it may be worth it to you.Just not me.Most ak's are between 250-400.I myself own a wasr-10 identical to the sar's.Pistol grip wood stock everything just lo-cap.Brand new w\4 clips I paid.209 for mine s/hand and ffl included.But I have to watch my money I have a family and bills.So I wait to get what I want for what i'll pay.You could apparently afford that and that is good.Just look around next time bectha come up better.I looked for 2 months before I bought mine.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by windwalker
Too me yes it is too much.You probally have it loaded with extra's that don't make adamn bit of difference to me.Look though that is my opinion it may be worth it to you.Just not me.Most ak's are between 250-400.I myself own a wasr-10 identical to the sar's.Pistol grip wood stock everything just lo-cap.Brand new w\4 clips I paid.209 for mine s/hand and ffl included.But I have to watch my money I have a family and bills.So I wait to get what I want for what i'll pay.You could apparently afford that and that is good.Just look around next time bectha come up better.I looked for 2 months before I bought mine. So you can say this without even knowing if it is a pre-ban rifle? Or one that is highly sought after? Different makes of firearms have different values. I own an SAR2, but it's not near the collectibility of a Chinese Type 56!! You paid for what you got, I'm sure Lenny did the same.

An original condition 1966 Ford Mustang is worth more than one made 20 years later. Why, they're both Mustangs? Collectibility!! You can't make assumptions if you don't have the experience/knowledge to make them.

[windwalker]

I don't give a rats ace pre ban are a waste of money. so is all that other junk shot 600 rds though mine no misfires no jams.Collectors ass.I buy guns that are practical when you work and got bills you just can't throw money away.I want to shoot my guns not hang em on the wall.And say i threw 800$ dollars on this puppy.Give me an f'in break.:p

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by windwalker
I don't give a rats ace pre ban are a waste of money. so is all that other junk shot 600 rds though mine no misfires no jams.Collectors ass.I buy guns that are practical when you work and got bills you just can't throw money away.I want to shoot my guns not hang em on the wall.And say i threw 800$ dollars on this puppy.Give me an f'in break.:p So I take it you drive a GEO Metro because it is much more practical and gets better gas milage than a pickup, right? It's gets you from here to there! I think not...

BS. Just because someone made a choice that you didn't, don't slam them for it. Free country, his choice! My Choice! Your Choice!

Give me a fucking break! To each his own! Wouldn't you, living in a free country, agree? :rolleyes:

[windwalker]

Hey man thats what I said from the begining his choice.As far as cars I drive a pick up and my wife drives a cougar.I didn't slam him.you fool.Don't come off acting rightous you quoted me.Cars and houses is alittle different than gun you will never shot.

[RJ Shooter]

I'm sure Lenny's AK doesn't just hang on a wall, and I'm sure he shoots it as often as he can!

Right Len? :D

[Rew]

Scalawag, I am sure your uncle would be very greatful to you for posting a pic of him commiting a warcrime on the world wide web. I suggest you think before posting a picture like that. Also where did you got the idea that people in the Soviet union could not get rich? Compatition drives an ecomany, if you want to sell a product, make it better at a lower price and you will sell more forcing the compatition to improve his product or go under. The AK was designed for a pesent army, simple, sloppy, reliable. The soviet trooper was trained to fire full auto all the time so accuracy was not much of an issue. The M16 was designed with accuracy and wight in mind. The weapon has tighter tolerances, and demands more attention, but then it was not designed with a peasant army in mind was it? The Soviet Army had very few career NCOs, the American is run day to day by a prfesonal corp of NCOs. The NCOs make sure you clean your weapon, even if you happen to be issued AKs you would still clean it everyday.
Our M16s worked just fine in the real world. The AK in semi auto civilian legal version is a fun plinker, it was never ment to have the accursey of the AR and it doesn't. Now since I am retired and can pick the weapon I will defend my life and family with I chose ..........................................my FAL. :D

Rew

[Lenny]

Windwalker I swim with my $700 dollar AK! Swim buddy..My AK has seen more mud and scraps than you can imagine..I dont collect I use it.Swim dont forget that!

[windwalker]

I am soooooooooo proud of you keep up the good work son!! I sleep with mine!Thank god you use it .The way that other guy was talking I wasn't sure you were a collector or not.who raa:rockin:

[scalawag]

war is a crime. you would have thought we would have learned that after the civil war...........then the 1st world war..................then the 2nd...............korea etc. man always seems to find a way to murder, he justifies it by calling it a war. vietnam like so many others were undeclared. anyway about the pics. he justified what he did by explaining about a village that they helped with some supplies. a week later they came back through and nva soldiers had killed every man woman and child about 30, they were all hung up by there heals and skined. he told me thats when it got personal. i was about 8 then, he shot hisself when i was 15. all i can remember all he ever talked about was that there has to be a better way. he drove hisself crazy trying to figure out why. thats all that was on the note. funny too, i remember he could lay down on a wood floor with a knife flip it up in the air and just before it come down he would move and the knife would stick up in the floor. a man like that driving hisself crazy over somthing like that. wouldnt think nothing could touch him. but you never hear of things like that. after the shooting stops on both sides. i love aks too. cheap, reliable and abundant.

[PBR]

I chose ..........................................my FAL. :D

Rew [/B]

Now thats what I'm talking about !

The AK and the AR are 2 of my favorites but for business purposes I choose the FAL. Heap big medicine:D

[Lenny]

Okay. I'll back down. I am not better than anyone else here. I apologize for my remarks. All I have said is true, but I don't feel like disrespecting anyone. We all have different op's on everything. Thats what makes it such a better place to live than most. I appreciate your op's and ideas. Respectfully,
Lenny

[windwalker]

It sure was fun though.Debating and everything.Thanks everyone lenny you outta put up the gun with a scanner or something sounds like a great gun man.Enjoy it.:stud:

[Lenny]

Hey I just want you to know that I don't like to disrespect anyone I do not know. Scalawag, I am not so sure your pictures are something I would want to see. And I dont agree with everything you posted. BUT I do respect the fact that you stand up for what you believe in. You are possiably very right and I could be wrong? Who knows? Windwalker I hope to post my photo's someday. I always enjoy looking at other people weapons too. I too respect your idea's, even if I don't agree.
Thanks alot I learned a few things in this thread. I am glad we "debated"
Respectfully, Lenny

[gibsonite]

I don't know, I think this was one of the better discussions I've seen on the topic. Plenty of facts, and you guys did do a good job keeping it civil.

I've always seen AR's and AK's as apples and oranges. Different approaches to the same problem.

AR's generally only have a problem if they're not cared for properly. But eventually poor care will make any gun perform poorly. For the people in the service, it only makes sense to take good care of a weapon that may just save your life.

As for civilian use, maybe the AR is too high maintenance for some enthusiasts. I don't know. I have a friend with an AR15 and a VEPR II, both in .223 and he loves the both. He's told me the AR is more work, but I haven't heard him complain about taking care of it.

I myself have a Yugo and VEPR K in 7.62x39 for larger targets and for plinking. For accuracy at longer ranges I really tend to stick the the .30-06 and the .338. But for 100 yards and under, I really like the VEPR K with the Kobra site.

Thanks for the posts guys, its been very good reading!

-Gibitude :cool:

[Lenny]

I thought this thread disappeared a long time ago..............:D
Lenny

[UGACherokee]

No kidding. When I last posted on this thread, I hadn't even fired my M-15A2 and was in a much more positive mood about my SAR-2 than I am now.

Funny.

[Lenny]

I learned how easy it was to get into a flame war and while they are intresting.....they are too easy to get into a whos dick is bigger contest. Oh well it was a learning experiance. Respectfully, Lenny

[Rev Rob]

I sold my 2 Aks today and picked up a RRA CAR A2. Im traden some of my AK stuff for AR stuff, but keepin some because I plan on saving up enough fro a pre ban AK.

So AKs and ARs are differnt wearons, beter for different jobs.

AK Pros: They are the work horse. The perfect design in simplicity ya could run mud through it and it will work. Thats why ya can give it to a 8 year old Somoli or a 68 year old Veitnamese farmer and count on it working. Its idiot proof.

AK Cons: Its a true assault rifle and as such only accurate to a point. The smaller caliber ones get a little beter but also can have funtional problems.

AR Pros: Accurate, I was an Expert Rifelmen in the Army. In as far as any rifle is as accurate as the marksmen, there is no way any AK is near as accurate. Light and beter ergonomics. Very comfortible to shoot.

AR Con: Its a design unlike an AK that was poor at the start. It has been tweeked and tweeked and tweeked. from Bird cage brakes to heat sheilds to beter adjustible sights.

So it needs to be cleaned, that is kept clean. As a troop I kept my gun strack and never had one jam in 4 years of service, in the desert and jungle. I had a Nam issue 16 in boot, an 80 issue in my first unit and an A2 when I left. Kept them all clean and they all worked when I needed it.

I remember hating the new rear sites. I remmber gettin sand in it and having to soak it to get it to move. Ill have to test that on my new RRA CAR.

Just my 2 cents they are very diferent guns.

[UGACherokee]

Originally posted by Lenny
I learned how easy it was to get into a flame war and while they are intresting.....they are too easy to get into a whos dick is bigger contest. Oh well it was a learning experiance.

Ditto that.

[Ebolass]

I loved reading all the posts on this thread. Always learning something new.

I have had AK's and AR's. love them both, for different reasons and of course each has its flaw to a point.

I do alot of trading, always trying a new type of weapon.

Traded 3 AK's, a French MAS, and a SKS for a Yogoslavian M-76/308 Sniper Rifle (accurized Kalashnikov) with Soviet PSO-1 scope. Still got my A1 though.

[WyrTwister]

Originally posted by scalawag
first fellas nothing personel, second a buddy of mine bought a new BM and it jammed 2 or 3 shots out of 10. its getting better as we shoot it. i found that per the bushmaster site that this is a common problem. thats why i will never own one of stoners political pieces of shit. if he werent worried about getting rich we would have something like an ak chambered for the 223. and goten noone killed trying to make it work. hell per general tommy franks our boys in afganistan clean there ars 3 times a day. look at the way its designed, when a round freezes in the chamber for whatever reason you got to stick a rod down the barrel to poke it out. my uncle was in nam , he showed me some pics of an ak with the bolt rusted shut. he kicked the bolt open with his boot, on that handy bolt handle that the ar doesnt have, and unloaded a 30 shot clip full auto. lite weight was one of the ar's selling factors, yea right. the a2's are almost as heavy as a battle rifle if not the same. now the mp5 could have been done away with if we had some decent mech. engineers over here. like having the krinkov in a 45 acp. they chamber the .410 shotgun shell for the ak. i will never be sold on anything political. the 9mm and ar is.



The AK is a great rifle for short to med range . Especially in bad conditions and bad - nonexistant cleaning practices .

The AR is good to somewhat longer ranges & good if kept very clean . Usually more accurate .

Which would I choose , depends on the ammo supply .

And then there is the Garand !

Wyr
God Bless

[Burt Gummer]

I love my Preban COLT AR Carbine.

I love my DSA SA58 Carbine.

I love my VEPR K in 7.62 Soviet.



Can't we all just get along?

[Boogieman]

I own a bunch of AR's and AK's...I'll take one of my Valmet's over either. Dependability of an AK (which is is...sorta) and the accuracy of an AR (well...nearly). Or on second though maybe my .308 Yugo. Well maybe not...I love my FAL's...Jeez...this is tough.:)

[one good cop]

I personally own several AR-15's. bushmaster being my personal favorite and have been for years. my life depended on them because of my job being an officer. both shot perfect out of the box and have never let me down on the range or on the job. nothing but good things for bushmaster I'm also a person who cleans my weapons on a consistant basis.The other favorites are arsenal ak-47's own two of them they are also the mack daddy of ak-47's love the milled recievers and the sweet triggers. the only problems I ever experienced with any of these weapons was due to crap ammo wolf. feed them good ammo clean them buy good mags 99.9% of the time you will not have any problems at all.