Preduzece 44

[zouavexx]

What does "Preduzece 44" mean, "made in 1944"?

My V24/47 has that marking and so does dugedug's Mod. 98 Yugo rework

(see thread: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52554 )


Thanks for the info :)


Zouave

[whos2kno]

I probably wrong but does it mean factory 44.
this is on my M-48a(before I cleaned her:))
whos2kno

[templar]

whos2know has it exactly right.

According to three of my customers who are Russian, Preduzece 44 means literally "Factory 44". Serbo-Croat and Russian are very similar slavic languages, especially the written language.

[Tracy]

My M48A has the same thing on it. It's not the date, as the date of manufacture for my rifle is 1943. According to a book I have, the only plant which manufactured Yugo guns was in Kragujevac Yugoslavia. This was a government owned plant. It would make sense, though, that 44 was the plant number. I'm almost sure I read about this very thing, but I haven't a clue what my brain did with the info. :rolleyes:

[zouavexx]

So "Preduzece 44" would have been stamped into dugedug's Mod. 98 Yugo rework after capture?

[Tracy]

Hey, look! I'm not a junior member anymore! :wave:

Now if someone could just tell me what I read.

[templar]

Zouave, it would have been after factory reconditioned after the war, when the majority of German markings were ground off. That's when it wouldhave been restamped.

[whos2kno]

Originally posted by zouave
So "Preduzece 44" would have been stamped into dugedug's Mod. 98 Yugo rework after capture?
it would led me to think it was. but don't quote me on it.I think maybe Schuetzenman might know the answer.
whos2kno

[whos2kno]

on a real one is it just stamped MOD 98?
whos2kno

[dugedug]

I've got both :)
Now that you mention it, the Pred. 44 does not appear to be german. the font of the 4's does not match any of my other proofs. Which leads me to beleive it is a non-german stamping. This is easily confirmed without proof as you can just look at the rear sight and see the german font for "4".

As for the Mod. 98, I'm not so sure on that one. The "98" font matches other german proof fonts. I don't have any M's or d's to compare them too that I have found(o's would be similar in both fonts).

The only other place were I have a 4 that matches the pred. 44 is on the floorplate and I have numerous german/disconnected 4's(see pic below). One other number("1") on the plate also does not look german which may mean that the floorplate was stamped later? It's tough to say really. I mean, they could have just used different fonts at one time too and just had the stamps set up with missmatched fonts.


http://imagem.webphotos.iwon.com/1000028356/1000028356_320200222954AM0.2701837.jpg

http://imagem.webphotos.iwon.com/1000028356/1000028356_320200222954AM8.739436E-02.jpg

German #'s
http://imagem.webphotos.iwon.com/1000028356/1000028356_320200224827AM0.2884638.jpg

[aliceinchains]

Originally posted by templar
Zouave, it would have been after factory reconditioned after the war, when the majority of German markings were ground off. That's when it wouldhave been restamped.

Hey templar, glad to see you post over here.:)

[Tracy]

So, then, some of the Yugos and Czechs were manufactured at the same plant and not in their respective countries?

:newbie:

[templar]

Tracy, when the Yugoslavs got their army back in operation at the end of WWII, they decided to standardize the small arms.

Up until that point, the Yugoslav forces were using a hodgepodge of German, Czech, Russian, Italian, Austrian, British, Greek, and US arms. Prior to WWII, they had bought rifles from both FN in Belgium, and CZ in Czechoslovakia. The Treaty of Versailles kept the German manufacturers from competing in the world market, so the Czechs and the Belgians happily stepped in.

The Yugoslavs standardized the 7.92x57mm cartridge after WWII, and then set about arsenal remarking all the existing rifles that they had in inventory, including both FN and Czech manufactured vz-24's (which became Mod 24/47's), captured German K98's, and also started building German K98 pattern rifles from parts purchased from CZ right after the war. They also started building their own variation of the 98, the M48, which combines aspects of both the K98 and the vz-24.

So, you will find Czech, Belgian, and German rifles all with the Preduzece 44 stamping. The new government was known as the Second Yugoslav Federal Republic, and was now "communist", so they had to restamp all the rifles used by their armed forces with the new national crest if nothing else. Also, they wanted to put their own stamp on their own rifles.

I've seen Mod. 24/47's come through with the Preduzece 44 stamping over top of a ground off Fabrique Nationale stamping, where you can just make out the "Fa" and the "le" under the Preduzece 44 stamping.

I hope that helps clear it up a little. Collecting Yugo's is so much fun because there are so many damn variations :D

[aliceinchains]

Templar,That was very informative.How about sticking around for awhile over here :cool:

[REDSTAR]

Good thread.

[Scoupe]

Agreed, interesting thread.

I'm a little confused though. Why is the Preduzece on W2K's rifle in Cyrillic and the same in Western characters on dugedug's? Would this point to the time in history when they were (re)stamped?

[Tracy]

Thanks Templar. You summed it up pretty good. I've been looking out on the internet and came up with a couple of links that back up what you said.

This first one explains Bosnian M48's and gives some explanation about the Preduzece 44 factory.

http://www16.brinkster.com/m88/m48sniper.html


This one explains the relationship of the Czech and the Yugo rifles.

http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/archives/199901/msg02503.html

Someday I need to sit down and study it in more detail. I'll print out your post and save it.

[Schuetzenman]

:cool: Nice post Templar, very well done.

[danko]

This is from the book ZASTAVA ARMS FACTORY " The extreme importance for the further development of Artillery Technical Works had the selection of the new,uniform rifle for the Army of the Kingdom of Serbia,Croatia and Slovenia,the rifle compatible with the systems and caliber of Antanta small weapons The Army and Navy Ministry made the contacts with the Belgian "Fabrique Nationale" (FN) from Herstal by Liege At the time,the Belgians were working on the project of short version of M98 Mauser,later named M1924 During 1924 and 1925 the Ministry signed the licence contract with FN for the production of 7.9 mm M24 rifles and 7.9x57 mm ammunition As to the contract,the Belgians had the obligation to make the projects,deliver the equipment and mashines and train the workers for the rifle and ammunition production" "The first rifle from the pilot batch came out of the line on March 22,1928 The capacity of the naw plants were 200 rifles and 200000 bullets a day In the period of1928 to1940 V department enriched the range of 7.9 mmM24 small arms withM24ck(cetnik)assault rifle and "Sokol"rifle At the sametime the partial caliber unification of the various small arms,lleft from the earlier period,seized during war or received through the reparation or as the allied help, was carried The original brrels and sights on the Mexican(7mmM12),Serbian(7mmM99and M1910)and Turkish(7.65M90,M93 andM1903) rifles of the Mauser system and om the Austrian Mannliher M90 and M95 were replaced by the 7.9 M1924 domestic parts In the same way all other German Mauser 7.9mm M98 rifles were adjusted to M1924 standards" PREDUZECE 44 means "factory 44" It was done around 1950(FNRJ) 44 is factory code probably Cacak,Uzice or Konjic I dont think it was done in Zastava

[zouavexx]

Great post, Danko!


Where do you live?

[templar]

Thanks guys..it helps to have a history degree and be interested in this stuff.

As the History Channel says.......to better understand the Gun is to better understand History.

:D :D

[Scoupe]

Originally posted by templar
Thanks guys..it helps to have a history degree and be interested in this stuff.
:D :D

Gotta agree about the history degree. Gives one great skills such as research, synthesis, inquisition, writing, a certain amount of objectivity, a need to study "all sides" of an issue, and a strong appreciation of the past and the understanding that it's all interconnected - from the earliest civilizations to present.

I had a professor that was fond of saying "History isn't just one damn thing after another..."

Danko, Welcome, and thanks for the great post. I take it you're in Serbia, Yugoslavia. I have a couple very good friends whose parents are from that part of the world and "the boys" have been back to "their" village a few times, both before and after the wars. What a great resource for us to have you on the board!

BTW, I'm still wondering why the Preduzece 44 stamp is in Cyrillic on one rifle and in Western characters on another.

[whos2kno]

Originally posted by Scoupe



BTW, I'm still wondering why the Preduzece 44 stamp is in Cyrillic on one rifle and in Western characters on another.
maybe because there are using capture German equipment and until the Yugoslavian government could afford there own dies they used the western characters.that's the only thing I can figure out.
whos2kno

[templar]

The Roman vs. Cyrillic writing.......I can almost guarantee that what you're seeing are rifles manufactured in different plants in different parts of Yugoslavia.......

The Croats use Roman characters, the same alphabet that we are using right now, while the Serbs use Cyrillic. The spoken language is the same, just different dialects in Serbo-Croatian.

Croatian vs. Serbian rifles.............

Goes back to the split of the Roman Empire between West and East in the 3rd Century AD, the border between the two Empires ran right through the Balkans. The Serbs were in the Eastern Empire, and adopted the Greek alphabet and are Eastern Orthodox, while the Croats were in the Western Empire, use the Roman alphabet and are Roman Catholic.

The Roman Emporer Diocletian had his villa in Split, Croatia.....always wanted to see it.

Same thing as Poles vs. Bulgarians. Western vs. Eastern.

[dugedug]

If that didn't make complete sense of it all, I don't know what would. Thank you sir.

So what I have is a prewar k98k "commandeered" by the Yugo's on the Croation size of the ethnic "wall", and W2K's was put through a Serbian line.

[templar]

Also remember that during WWII, the Croats and Bosnian Muslims backed Germany to a great degree and whole German military units were made up of Croats and Bosnian volunteers, in an effort to fight against the Serbs, while the Serbs got most of their aid from the Soviets.

That boiled over again during the split up of the Republic in 1991, when many Croat soldiers sported Nazi regalia. I recommend a book called "My War, How I miss it so". I 'll have to find my copy and tell you who the author is. I know he was a former British soldier turned war correspondent who spent time in the country during and after the war. It has a great picture of a Croat militiaman sporting a swastika cut into his hair on the back of his head. The Croats were known as the Utashas, or Swastikas, by the Serbs, and the Serbs were known as Chetniks (post 1917 Revolution Soviet secret police) by the Croats and Bosnians.

NOT trying to pass judgement on any of the ethnic groups of the Balkans.......just demostrating what a twisted tale it all is.

[Scoupe]

Originally posted by templar
The Roman vs. Cyrillic writing.......I can almost guarantee that what you're seeing are rifles manufactured in different plants in different parts of Yugoslavia.......

Although my emphasis was early 20th century US labor history, I'm pretty familiar with the east/west split in the Catholic church (had to take a bunch of Western Civ as well). That's why I am confused with the two types of lettering coming out of what I thought was one factory. W2K's answer makes the most sense to me if "factory 44" is indeed one facility. If "factory 44" isn't one facility, then by all means Templar's explanation makes the most sense. I'm not losing sleep over it, but it does puzzle me.

[zouavexx]

This is a great thread guys, THANKS:)

[templar]

Scoupe, I agree with you, it's a really confusing tale. I tend to think that the Factory 44 may well have been many "factories", almost like a code, so that other countires wouldn't know exactly how many arsenals they had.

Who really knows?

I still think that what we're seeing are rifles produced in different factories in different Yugoslav Republics. Croat and Serb primarily.

Call it a gut feeling sharpened with some knowledge of the Balkans in the 20th Century.

I could very well be wrong though.

Great discussion and ideas being thrown around in here though! :D

You're looking at one of the most over-educated gun salesmen you've ever talked to though...I also have a B.S. in Anthropology, and one of my professors did her post grad work in Yugoslavia back in the 60's. :D

One day I might just use all this here fancy schoolin'! :rolleyes:

[templar]

You know, I just re-read the last part of my post and I hope I didn't come across as some stuck up asshole....I apologize if I did.

[Scoupe]

Templar,

I tend to agree with the idea of more than one facility using the "44" as well. One of my best friends is Croation and we have strong Croat AND Serb communities in the metro area here. That, and paying attention to world affairs for the last couple decades one gets to know a little of what's going on.

Side note, I used to work for a guy that called himself Italian. He told me he was born in Italy, his father in Croatia, his grandfather in Austro-Hungary -- and they were all born in the same house!

Getting back to the lettering, the more I think about it, it would be quite unlikey that a facility in Croatia would ever stamp in Cyrillic and vice versa for a facility in Serbia. As for Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, etc. I have no clue. Hmm, sounds like another evening of reading... :)

And agreed, an interesting topic and just fun to discect some of this stuff with other curious minds. What history buff's mind wouldn't perk up when pondering these old weapons with their dents, bruises and (sometimes) enigmatic markings?

[Tracy]

Templar, there's nothing wrong with admitting that you know something. Everyone has their field(s) of expertise and should feel a certain amount of obligation to share the information. As a newbie, it didn't sound arrogant to me, so I know the "veterans" didn't take it that way either.
:newbie:

[AKWARRIOR]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by templar
[B]Also remember that during WWII, the Croats and Bosnian Muslims backed Germany to a great degree and whole German military units were made up of Croats and Bosnian volunteers, in an effort to fight against the Serbs, while the Serbs got most of their aid from the Soviets.[/i][B][QUOTE]


You are talking about the the 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Handschar"(Croatian Nr.1).Mostly comprised Bosnian Muslims.I have read many books on this unit.Very highly decorated and an outstanding fighting reputation.The Handschar division was raised in 1943 and most of its volunteers joined the division in order to protect their homes and families from Ustashe/Chetnik and Partisan attacks(Titos thugs).What set this unit apart from others was its members wore a Fez.


Regards,

[danko]

About lettering i have a gun made by ZASTAVA all markings are in roman Rifles i had during my time in the army were all with cyrillic markings All of them were made by ZASTAVA Weapons and equipment made for the army in croatia and bosnia(before war) were only made with roman markings ZASTAVA ARMS FACTORY was only factory in former yugoslavia that made small arms all others were only doing repair and overhaul And now some history ustase were croatian army waffen ss style units during WW2 cetnici were serbian army special forces formed around 1900 to fight behind enemy lines (Turks and Austrians) they were used with great success before and during balkan wars 1912,1913 and WW1 During WW2 serbian units fighting against germans,croats and communist were using the same name

[AKWARRIOR]

Originally posted by danko
And now some history ustase were croatian army waffen ss style units during WW2 cetnici were serbian army special forces formed around 1900 to fight behind enemy lines (Turks and Austrians) they were used with great success before and during balkan wars 1912,1913 and WW1 During WW2 serbian units fighting against germans,croats and communist were using the same name


You are referring to 23.Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Kama" kroat(Nr.2.)Approval was given for the raising of a 2nd Croatian Waffen SS division on June 17, 1944. The new division was given the honorary title "Kama". Actual recruitment for "Kama" had started on June 10th 1944, and a sizeable number of German officers and NCO's were made available to the division. Croatian officers and men from the 13.SS were also transfered to "Kama", including the entire Reconnaissance Battalion. To this core of troops was added a new batch of Croatian and Croatian-Muslim recruits.

Regards,

[danko]

those units were under german command ustase were under croatian army command cetnici were receiving help from GB(until 1943) not the russians

[AKWARRIOR]

Originally posted by danko
those units were under german command ustase were under croatian army command

Exactly.

[Scoupe]

Danko - AKW - Templar,

Great stuff! Thanks!

[danko]

do you know german marking for skenderbeg division (moustly albanians)?

[AKWARRIOR]

Originally posted by danko
do you know german marking for skenderbeg division (moustly albanians)?

Yes I do.That unit was 21st Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS
"Skanderbeg".They used the double falcons looking outwards within a shield.This division was authorised in April 1944 and was made up of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo who were mostly of the Muslim faith. Recruitment began in summer 1944 and by
September about 6,500 volunteers had come forward.The high desertion rate resulted in the unit being disbanded and reformed with the German cadre forming Kampfgruppe "Skanderbeg" which joined up with the 14th Regiment of the 7th SS "Prinz Eugen" in Yugoslavia. This battle group was was in action in December 1944/January 1945 around Zwornik, Bjellina and Brcko and only a handful of men from this unit were transferred to 32. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division 30 Januar and sent to the Oder front in 1945.





Heres a pic of there Divisional Marking.