Selling over the net?

[McSniper]

I just placed a Maadi for sale and would like information on the proper way to sell/transfer it over the net to someone out of state. What are the precations I should take with the sale? I do not have an FFL.

Thanks in advance.

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[Necron99]

MCSniper, you have two options, assuming that you are both "private parties". First option is to send the gun UPS ground (USPS will not ship firearms or ammunition to the best of my knowledge) to customer after you have received whatever form of payment for said gun. It is perfectly legal (for a private party) to send a gun interstate and transfer possession without going through a FFL dealer. This is very common when you have gunsmithing work done by a out of state gunsmith(eg. a new finish), or daddy (for example in Virginia) sends his son a rifle to bag a deer with(who lives/going to school in Wyoming). The pitfalls of this transfer is the lack of consumer protection, generally by the buyer that he is not getting what he bargained for. The transaction is only as good as the integrity of the two parties involved, just like any other business transaction in the world. The second option is to send the gun through a local FFL holder to a FFL holder in the area of the buyer. A general rule is that the buyer has three days to inspect gun. If said buyer is not satisfied he will send gun back, paying the shipping cost. There may be fees administered by the FFL holders to broker the transaction, but this is entirely dependent on the FFL holders. If the gun is rejected and sent back, you will have to fill out a form 4473 (the standard form you fill out every time you buy a gun from a FFL holder) to regain ownership of the gun. These two scenarios both comply with the federal laws implimented in the 1968 gun control act, however some states have laws that confuse the matter even more. I personally prefer the first option just out of principle, I have no strikes against me that forbid me from owning guns, but am very reluctant to purchase "papered" guns. The reason is that even though the 1968 gun control act strictly forbids the ATF or any other law enforcement agency from organizing gun purchase forms (form 4473) the ATF has been compiling the files of retired FFL holders (they must send their files in to ATF when they retire their FFL) on computers. This is illegal according to their own laws (1968 GCA), with computerized files they can begin to profile citizens, especially individuals who have multiple transactions of firearms that can be viewed as "revolutionary". Also even though the Brady Bill requires that background check forms (before the insticheck) are disposed of after 90 days, it is common knowledge that many police agencies were holding on to these records beyond the 90 days, possibly indefinitely (in violation of the law!). Big brother is watching you! Most certainly on this board as well. Hope this helps.

[McSniper]

Thanks Necron for taking time to reply. Sounds like sound advice to me. I to have no strikes against me but big brother still rattles my nerves.



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[Necron99]

Just talked to a former FFL holder on subject he said the subject is so convoluted that even most FFL holders and most ATF officials don't even know the answer. The advice given may on the private transfer/shipiping a gun to out of state gunsmith without going through a FFL holder may not be 100% legal, although it happens all the time. My suggestion would be to go to the ATF website /www.atf.treas.gov/ and find a phone # and ask an ATF legal specialist. You'll probably get the wrong answer there. Another precaution would be to send the gun in two or more packages, that way no each package is not a complete gun. Do not send it through the Post Office, they do not ship firearms or ammo for anyone even an FFL holder. The reality of the matter is that enforcement on this kind of stuff is non-existant so know one really knows what's viewed as legal or illegal in the eyes of the ATF. The ATF doesn't even follow the letter of their own law. They continually ignore court rulings against them on certain issues (eg. Supreme Court Thompson Contender ruling concerning barrels under 16") and also shrug their shoulders at other firearms violations that are all over the place in plain view (eg. postban guns being sold in preban configurations). I see the same problem with business codes here in Montana, a friend of mine tried to get a business sign (size, visibility from a main road etc..)approved by the Montana Highway Patrol (state troopers) who can legally approve the paperwork. This was the last thing he needed to get done to open shop (mechanic). He had three Highway Patrol officers come at different occasions, but even though they thought the sign was conformed to code, none of them would sign off on the paperwork, because they didn't want to put their own ass on the line. Finally the guy had to get a state regulator to drive all the way from the capitol (Helena), over 120 miles away to approve the sign. The state worker looked at the sign for about two seconds, griped about the Highway Patrol, signed the paperwork, and then drove back to Helena. Sorry if this makes things even more confusing, but that's what happens in a country obsessed with legal do's and don't's rather than consistent simple constituition law. So just to be safe you might want to take the big brother, I mean FFL route.

[Tomac]

It is legal to ship rifles and shotguns but no handguns or ammo) through the U.S. Postal Service as long as they're unloaded and all applicable laws are obeyed. At the postmaster's discretion he may require you to prove it's unloaded before shipping. Hope this helps!... Tomac

[Necron99]

Thanks Tomac. I did not know that. I have a friend whose wife is in the post office and apparently they're told to look for that kind of stuff. So I'll stick to UPS even though its slower.

[Jay_S]

Wouldn't a "private party" interstate transfer without using an FFL be illegal due to the fact that it would be moving in "interstate commerce?"

On the other hand, I've read that it is illegal (for that very same reason) to purchase/sell out of one's home state, yet I know for a fact that the Idaho State Constituation specifically states that it is legal for Idaho residents to buy in other states where such transfers are legal, and vice versa. This seems to fly in the face of the aforementioned "interstate commerce" clause.

While on the subject of "interstate commerce" and gun regulations, wouldn't it be okay (if State and Local ordinances allow) to manufacture a silencer or something similar (even an entire gun for that matter) that has never and would never move in "interstate commerce"?

Those would make for some interesting test cases for court, if there was someone willing to take the risk.

[Albert]

I thoroughly researched this when I bought a rifle over the internet. I looked at the Unites States Code, the applicable Code of Federal Regulations, went to the BATF web site and talked to a number of FFL holders. I can tell you absolutely, positively that it is NOT LEGAL to sell/transfer a gun to someone living in another state without going through an FFL in the state in which the purchaser lives. While you can do it within your own state under federal law (may not be able to under your state's law like in California)you cannot do it out of state.
Techinically, you as the private party seller can ship it to an FFL in the state in which the buyer lives. However, I was told by more than one FFL holder, that UPS will not accept shipment of a gun from a non-FFL holder even if it being shipped to an FFL holder even if it is legal for them to do so. Sorry to give you the bad news, but better safe than sorry. Albert.

[WAREAGLE]

UPS shipped my Colt Sporter back to Colt. And also, how do they know what you're shipping? Not being argumentative, just wondering.

[Albert]

I believe you legally have to declare that you are shipping a gun or ammunition. I didn't research this issue a closely, but I believe it is legal to ship out of state for repairs. This is why Soupbowl etc. can have people ship AK's to them for work and can ship them back to the existing owners. I'd like to think that UPS doesn't require shipments FFL to FFL since the law does not require it, but that's what all the FFL's in California I spoke to told me.

[Bryant]

You can sell locally and even to other people in other states but you can't just ship it to them that is why you need the FFL transfer. Now if they want to meet you say anywhere you can transfer it locally since private sales are still legal. Congress tried to get rid of that private sales thing with the regulations on gun shows, but it still has not passed so until then private sales are legal.

[UGOA]

Gun needs to be shipped to an FFL dealer. I thought most gun owners were boycotting UPS!!!
The following information is provided from a e-mail alert that I received from Chris W. Stark, Gun Owners Alliance, Texas.
HOW ABOUT THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE?

You say no way? That is what I said at first! I couldn't believe it!

I called the United States Postal Service (USPS) today. Even had their
postal regulations faxed to me regarding the shipping of firearms, and
here is the scoop:

USPS regulation DMM Issue 54, January 10, 1999, section C-024 (page C-37)
found at 1.3, Authorized Persons: "Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed
by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or
an authorized agent of the federal government......."

Jumping to page C-38, to 1.5, Manufacturers and Dealers: "Handguns may
also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed
dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or
replacing parts."

Same page (C-38) at 1.6, Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers: "A
licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 1.4,
but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the
mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms,
that the parcels containing handguns (or major components thereof) are
customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or
replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief
the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms."

Now, lets go to page C-39, at 3.0, Rifles and Shotguns: "....the mailer
may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by
written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by
1.1e." [note from Chris Stark: 1.1e is the 1968 GCA minimal length for
a shotgun of 18", and 16" length for rifles. I asked USPS how often
people ship guns with them. He said it was not at all uncommon, and
it is not often they ever require a package to be opened for inspection!]

Even better, same page (C-39) at 6.0, PROHIBITED PARCEL MARKING: "For
any parcel containing a firearm or a ballistic or switchblade knife,
any marking that indicates the contents is not permitted on the outside
wrapper or container."

Now you ask, "But what about prices?" This is where it gets good!
The rates that apply to any parcel, apply to firearms!! One example
of MANY:

Priority mail for a HUGE HANDGUN (Desert Eagle?) weighing 5 lb. (?)
is only going to cost you $6.50! Insurance? $400.00 worth of insurance
costs about $4.65! Want to require an adult signature? Certify the
package for about $2.00! Grand total: $13.15! And this is for a HUGE
gun! Most weight much less! and, THE USPS WILL PROVIDE FREE OF CHARGE,
most of the priority package containers you need, and ship them to your
place of business or residence, free of charge!

Get the picture? THE BOYCOTT LIVES AND YOU NOW HAVE AN ALTERNATE WAY
TO SHIP ALL OF YOUR PACKAGES, FIREARMS OR NOT!