Tomac
05-19-2002, 05:02 PM
Goal: Budget "Battlefield Sniper" (ie: Dragunov as opposed to true tactical sniper)
Rifle: Stock Saiga .308, wood (birch?) furniture.
Mags: 8 rd synthetic w/o metal reinforcing (like the Vepr mags).
Scope: PSO 8x42 illuminated w/Saiga clamp (both from Tantal). Also tried the Kobra out of curiosity.
Ammo: South African & Portugese milsurp, (140rds + 160rds, 300rds total fired). Saving the Hirt for later. Accuracy and POI appeared to be very similar.
Weather: Clear and cool with slight gusts from our 10-11 o'clock moving to our 9 o'clock as the morning progressed. Wind may have had some effect at 500m.
Procedure: One shooter w/one spotter w/45x spotting scope calling hits/misses/corrections.
Targets: Standard 100m sight-in target w/1" squares, 18" gongs at 150m, 200m & 500m. 18" square gong at 300m, rectangle gong (dimensions unknown) & iron ram (appx 24" wide by 12" high) at 400m, and iron ram (appx 24" wide by 12" high) at 500m. Small green weed bush at unknown range (estimate at 800m+). Finally, 3 1-gallon water jugs were set up at 500m (no Tomac range report is complete w/o water jugs *somewhere* in the testing process!)
Disclaimers: My eyes are crap (surgery scheduled for later this summer) and I'm still ill (temp & lung crud, been on antibiotics for a week and am seeing the doctor *again* tomorrow morning) so I know I'm not shooting my best. I had Lefty out to help with the shooting.
Pre-shoot observations: The Saiga has a spring-loaded firing pin (nice touch) and the bore/chamber are chromed (another nice touch). The scope works well fit-wise but the stock needs a bit more height for optimal cheekweld (maybe add a stockpad). The trigger is very smooth and light but excessively long because of the engineering required to make the FCG work w/the Saiga stock. IMHO the very long pull hurts accurate shooting with this rifle more than anything else. Again, perhaps because of the altered FCG I found the Monte Carlo stock be be slightly awkward when shooting for accuracy. Since I haven't pulled the handguard yet I don't know if or where the handguard is contacting the barrel.
Reliability: There were no malfunctions of any kind during the entire 300rds fired. Rifle was not cleaned at any point during the range test.
Recoil: The Saiga has an excellent recoil pad that prevented any discomfort from the .308. A bit sharper than from my Romak-3 which seemed to be more of a slower push. However, muzzle rise from the Saiga after firing doesn't contribute to quick follow-up shots! (Perhaps a muzzle brake is in order?...)
Iron Sights: I only needed to make one small elevation and windage correction to the front sight (standard C-tool works perfectly) to make the 300m 18" square gong a fairly easy target w/irons (irons are calibrated to 300m max). However, as with most AK-derivitive designs, the iron sights do not lend themselves to quick acquisition, especially on a 9 lb rifle w/22" barrel (however, the longer barrel added to the sight radius and hence was beneficial to accurate shooting w/irons).
Kobra sight: I only needed to correct the windage to get the Kobra sighted in dead-on. The flat trajectory of the .308 makes hitting anything from 0-300m much easier and faster than w/iron sights although the Saiga will never be a serious challange to any decent handling lightweight CQB carbine.
PSO 8x42 scope: Ah, this is where it starts to get interesting! The excessively long trigger pull (w/no stages to let you know where it will break) makes a clean controlled break very difficult, nearly impossible for me. I found I got better results by just going with a straight through consistent squeeze w/o trying to stop partway through and guess where the break would be.
The scope doesn't have the familiar PSO 7.62x54 BDC cammed in the elevation turret, rather it has standard elevation adjustments from 1-20 w/half clicks in between the digits (which makes it much easier to use w/loads differing greatly from the 7.62x54 trajectory).
I found the suggested elevation adjustments (for 7.62x54) to be way off when used w/.308 milsurps. Example: With a 100m sight-in w/the scope's elevation turret set at the suggest '0', to hit at 500m I needed the elevation turret set at '8' instead of the suggested '4.5' so a range card needs to be made showing adjustments needed at all ranges.
Due to the trigger pull and lack of match ammo I postponed group testing for a later range test.
Once sighted in all the gongs/targets were easy to hit out to 400m. At 500m we had to work harder to get hits, but we did get hits and lots of them!
Example: During an 8 shot rapid fire exercise w/only 2-3 seconds between shots we both managed 5 hits out of 8 at 500m with the difficult trigger and milsurp .308 ammo. During slow fire excercises most of our misses at 500m were misses that just barely missed the outside of the target. I found this impressive accuracy for a budget .308!
To see how much adjustment was left in the scope I picked out a smallish bush "way out there" (estimated range appx. 800m) and let fly. By walking the shots in it was possible to hit the bush at the scope's reticle aimpoint with the elevation turret set to its maximum of '20'.
Finally, we set up the 3 1-gallon water jugs at 500m. It took me 21 rds before I could visually confirm a hit on the first jug. However, examining the jug afterwards showed at least 2 and possibly 3 hits so I cannot say definitively how many shots it took to hit this jug. Lefty hit the 2nd jug with his *first shot*(?!) but was unable to connect with the 3rd jug w/his remaining shots. The 3rd jug took me 7 shots to hit. Again, except for called fliers most of our misses were very slightly above, below or to either side of the target jug. Most of our misses I atrribute to the trigger, the milsurp ammo and our (lack of?) long range skills.
Pros: Surprisingly accurate, inexpensive, all original (no US) parts, very 'PC' for an AK, takes QD ComBloc optics (everything from scopes to the Kobra), good recoil pad and trigger pull is "adequate" right out of the box (I going to discuss the trigger w/Red Star Arms and see if we can come up with a fix for the trigger).
Cons: Doesn't take hicap mags, to use PSO scopes w/the standard hunting stock you need the somewhat rare "Saiga" clamp for proper eye relief & height (the newer "AK" clamp provides proper height but improper eye relief for use with the longer Saiga hunting stock), trigger pull is excessively long making precision shooting difficult, mags don't have metal reinforcing (the mags I used today show no wear so this point may be moot), sling swivels are too small (a minor point).
Conclusions: I'm very surprised that such an inexpensive .308 can shoot this well w/milsurp ammo and ComBloc optics! The 8rd mags can be easily converted to 10rds and while not hicap the Saiga .308 can certainly fill in for an MBR in a pinch. The rifle itself appears to be as rugged and dependable as anything in the AK family.
How to Improve: Better trigger, match ammo, muzzle brake and maybe synthetic furniture (a Romak-3/Drag style buttstock?) It's possible the standard stock won't feel awkward in use once the excessive trigger pull length has been addressed.
Tomac
Rifle: Stock Saiga .308, wood (birch?) furniture.
Mags: 8 rd synthetic w/o metal reinforcing (like the Vepr mags).
Scope: PSO 8x42 illuminated w/Saiga clamp (both from Tantal). Also tried the Kobra out of curiosity.
Ammo: South African & Portugese milsurp, (140rds + 160rds, 300rds total fired). Saving the Hirt for later. Accuracy and POI appeared to be very similar.
Weather: Clear and cool with slight gusts from our 10-11 o'clock moving to our 9 o'clock as the morning progressed. Wind may have had some effect at 500m.
Procedure: One shooter w/one spotter w/45x spotting scope calling hits/misses/corrections.
Targets: Standard 100m sight-in target w/1" squares, 18" gongs at 150m, 200m & 500m. 18" square gong at 300m, rectangle gong (dimensions unknown) & iron ram (appx 24" wide by 12" high) at 400m, and iron ram (appx 24" wide by 12" high) at 500m. Small green weed bush at unknown range (estimate at 800m+). Finally, 3 1-gallon water jugs were set up at 500m (no Tomac range report is complete w/o water jugs *somewhere* in the testing process!)
Disclaimers: My eyes are crap (surgery scheduled for later this summer) and I'm still ill (temp & lung crud, been on antibiotics for a week and am seeing the doctor *again* tomorrow morning) so I know I'm not shooting my best. I had Lefty out to help with the shooting.
Pre-shoot observations: The Saiga has a spring-loaded firing pin (nice touch) and the bore/chamber are chromed (another nice touch). The scope works well fit-wise but the stock needs a bit more height for optimal cheekweld (maybe add a stockpad). The trigger is very smooth and light but excessively long because of the engineering required to make the FCG work w/the Saiga stock. IMHO the very long pull hurts accurate shooting with this rifle more than anything else. Again, perhaps because of the altered FCG I found the Monte Carlo stock be be slightly awkward when shooting for accuracy. Since I haven't pulled the handguard yet I don't know if or where the handguard is contacting the barrel.
Reliability: There were no malfunctions of any kind during the entire 300rds fired. Rifle was not cleaned at any point during the range test.
Recoil: The Saiga has an excellent recoil pad that prevented any discomfort from the .308. A bit sharper than from my Romak-3 which seemed to be more of a slower push. However, muzzle rise from the Saiga after firing doesn't contribute to quick follow-up shots! (Perhaps a muzzle brake is in order?...)
Iron Sights: I only needed to make one small elevation and windage correction to the front sight (standard C-tool works perfectly) to make the 300m 18" square gong a fairly easy target w/irons (irons are calibrated to 300m max). However, as with most AK-derivitive designs, the iron sights do not lend themselves to quick acquisition, especially on a 9 lb rifle w/22" barrel (however, the longer barrel added to the sight radius and hence was beneficial to accurate shooting w/irons).
Kobra sight: I only needed to correct the windage to get the Kobra sighted in dead-on. The flat trajectory of the .308 makes hitting anything from 0-300m much easier and faster than w/iron sights although the Saiga will never be a serious challange to any decent handling lightweight CQB carbine.
PSO 8x42 scope: Ah, this is where it starts to get interesting! The excessively long trigger pull (w/no stages to let you know where it will break) makes a clean controlled break very difficult, nearly impossible for me. I found I got better results by just going with a straight through consistent squeeze w/o trying to stop partway through and guess where the break would be.
The scope doesn't have the familiar PSO 7.62x54 BDC cammed in the elevation turret, rather it has standard elevation adjustments from 1-20 w/half clicks in between the digits (which makes it much easier to use w/loads differing greatly from the 7.62x54 trajectory).
I found the suggested elevation adjustments (for 7.62x54) to be way off when used w/.308 milsurps. Example: With a 100m sight-in w/the scope's elevation turret set at the suggest '0', to hit at 500m I needed the elevation turret set at '8' instead of the suggested '4.5' so a range card needs to be made showing adjustments needed at all ranges.
Due to the trigger pull and lack of match ammo I postponed group testing for a later range test.
Once sighted in all the gongs/targets were easy to hit out to 400m. At 500m we had to work harder to get hits, but we did get hits and lots of them!
Example: During an 8 shot rapid fire exercise w/only 2-3 seconds between shots we both managed 5 hits out of 8 at 500m with the difficult trigger and milsurp .308 ammo. During slow fire excercises most of our misses at 500m were misses that just barely missed the outside of the target. I found this impressive accuracy for a budget .308!
To see how much adjustment was left in the scope I picked out a smallish bush "way out there" (estimated range appx. 800m) and let fly. By walking the shots in it was possible to hit the bush at the scope's reticle aimpoint with the elevation turret set to its maximum of '20'.
Finally, we set up the 3 1-gallon water jugs at 500m. It took me 21 rds before I could visually confirm a hit on the first jug. However, examining the jug afterwards showed at least 2 and possibly 3 hits so I cannot say definitively how many shots it took to hit this jug. Lefty hit the 2nd jug with his *first shot*(?!) but was unable to connect with the 3rd jug w/his remaining shots. The 3rd jug took me 7 shots to hit. Again, except for called fliers most of our misses were very slightly above, below or to either side of the target jug. Most of our misses I atrribute to the trigger, the milsurp ammo and our (lack of?) long range skills.
Pros: Surprisingly accurate, inexpensive, all original (no US) parts, very 'PC' for an AK, takes QD ComBloc optics (everything from scopes to the Kobra), good recoil pad and trigger pull is "adequate" right out of the box (I going to discuss the trigger w/Red Star Arms and see if we can come up with a fix for the trigger).
Cons: Doesn't take hicap mags, to use PSO scopes w/the standard hunting stock you need the somewhat rare "Saiga" clamp for proper eye relief & height (the newer "AK" clamp provides proper height but improper eye relief for use with the longer Saiga hunting stock), trigger pull is excessively long making precision shooting difficult, mags don't have metal reinforcing (the mags I used today show no wear so this point may be moot), sling swivels are too small (a minor point).
Conclusions: I'm very surprised that such an inexpensive .308 can shoot this well w/milsurp ammo and ComBloc optics! The 8rd mags can be easily converted to 10rds and while not hicap the Saiga .308 can certainly fill in for an MBR in a pinch. The rifle itself appears to be as rugged and dependable as anything in the AK family.
How to Improve: Better trigger, match ammo, muzzle brake and maybe synthetic furniture (a Romak-3/Drag style buttstock?) It's possible the standard stock won't feel awkward in use once the excessive trigger pull length has been addressed.
Tomac