Sore trigger finger

[Praetorian]

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I have a newly aquired SAR-1. After shooting a couple of mags my trigger finger starts getting real sore. Now before you start laughing, I have been shooting for years and I have many guns but this SAR-1 has something going on with the trigger. Is this a characteristic of the Romanian guns? Is there something I can do about it? It's not that the trigger is rough finish wise its just that with every pull it transmits a sharp snapping sensation to my finger. What the heck????


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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[Tantal]

It seems to me this is caused by the disconnector bottoming out on it's spring and popping the trigger farther backwards when the hammer comes down into full pressure under the bolt carrier. A disconnector that bottoms out can be caused by a few possible problems. I think the most likely is that the trigger rotates too far when it is pulled and this places the disconnector closer to the hammer, which means that the hammer has to rock the disconnector farther when it is pushed down by the carrier. Because it pushes deeper into the disconnector, the disconnector has not enough spring travel to compensate, and it hits bottom in the trigger, and then the trigger itself has to move for an instant, resulting in a pulse of pressure to the stressed trigger finger of the shooter. I have looked at one of my Romanian AK-74 rifles, and I can't think of anything else that could cause any effect such as this. But I have no problem such as this, and I need you to help me out. Take your receiver cover, spring, bolt carrier and bolt out, and do a standard function check. Place your trigger finger on the trigger but do not pull, with your left thumb push the hammer down and lock into place in the trigger. Hold your thumb lightly on the hammer face. Now, pull the trigger but do not release the trigger, let the hammer release slowly in your thumb control. You will notice that on this Rom design, which holds the trigger down fartyher into the receiver, that the disconnector actually hits the hammer right before release, this causes a unique "two-stage trigger" effect, which could also be contributing to a problem. Now, let the hammer release completely, but do not release the trigger! Now, push the hammer down again, and see what it does. It will push the head of the disconnector back, now does the trigger ever have a movement to it, or does it remain stationary? is the rifle giving you a painfull pulse when you release or when it fires? Try firing and not releasing the trigger. Does it still deliver a sharp pain, or is it just when you release?

[joeyman]

I know this sounds kind of hooky, but I had the same problem with a CZ 75. I then tried putting a little cloth from a Tshirt rag around the trigger absorb the sting. Result: no more sting. For a more permanent fix try wrapping some duct tape and some cloth around the trigger (very sparingly now) so you now have a padded trigger. By the way, my first thought on this was does this somehow degardes the safety of the gun, I can't see how it does, but if anyone disagrees please let me know.

[Praetorian]

Ok. It seems to function just as you describe. I don't think the snapping is happening when the hammer engages the disconnect if the trigger is held. I think it's happening if the trigger is released slightly after firing and the hammer re-engages the trigger under recoil. The spring pressure on the trigger is sufficient that a rather stout "snap" occours once the hammer mates to the sear face on the trigger. Additionally there is quite a bit of travel there meaning , the trigger doesn't snap forward a few 1/16' of an inch its more like almost 1/2 an inch! which is a pretty good snap when you consider how much pressure t's under.

How do I fix this?

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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[Packrat]

Is this movement move the trigger back to it's ready position? What happens if you only allow the trigger to move back enough to release? You could block it and see. Just be careful that you allow the trigger enough movement to fully release.

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Packrat

[Praetorian]

Yes it's the trigger reset that causes the pain. The motion of releasing from the disconnector and re-engaging with the trigger is quite a bit of travel under heavy spring pressure. The result is a painful snap into your trigger finger. I have read at AK-47.net that a "dual arm trigger" doesn't do this. I've also read that a recoil buffer helps but I don't see how.

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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[Tantal]

Some Maadi and Romanian AK-74 seem to be do this, both of them have a deeper trigger hook design, which pulls the hammer deeper into the receiver. The action of the hammer releasing from the disconnector to be caught by the hammer, is a more resounding click than on other AKM designs, which have much higher trigger hooks. The trigger hooks on the double hook design are also higher, and place less spring tension on the hammer when it is cocked.

[Praetorian]

Can I change out these parts with a set that will cause less discomfort? Will they fit in the SAR-1?

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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[TURBO]

Do you have a scope mounted? A B SQUARE SCOPE MOUNT can cam the operating lever of the bolt carrier down and by lowering the bolt carrier, the phenomenon you describe took place on a NHM-91 untill I relief cut the mount to clear the lever.........TURBO

[Praetorian]

Nope, I sure don't

[TURBO]

Sorry, pretorian, I thought it was just your rifle being of a little less quality than others, but then today, my mak-90 snapped my fingers in 20 degree temp on bare finger!!!!!!!! It was sharp then numb. So I finished off the drum of white and blue box russian jhp. The German plastic core I shot previous to the Russian did not snap. I think the only problem was: hot load-cold finger............TURBO

[Ivan8883]

Hungarian pre ban Ak's had this problem. That was the downside to my Hungarian underfolder I got back in the eighties. My friend had same problem with his, but he still has his! i got rid of mine.

[Tantal]

I have three Hungarian prebans, and none of them do this. As a matter of fact, none of my AK's have never done this. I am beginning to think it is the user and not the rifle, in that the user is doing something in the manner or timing of when they release the trigger, or the length of time they spend releasing the trigger, that is causing this, or perhaps people with sensitive fingers are having this problem. Why have I never had this happen to me? I am baffled. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say a bad word about a preban Hungarian rifle. I've owned five in my lifetime and none exhibited anything like this. I wish I could experience this problem or at least witness it, so I could troubleshoot what causes it.

[AKsrule]

The following is from the AK-47.net FAQ

What is trigger snap?

Trigger snap is the sharp pain you feel in your finger when the rifle is fired and the trigger
snaps back hitting your finger. This is a fairly common feature of single arm triggers and
is commonly seen on Hungarian SA-85Ms, Romanians, Maadi's, MISR and other
European rifles. The main differences between the single and double arm triggers are
the cuts in the receivers and the amount of hooked pieces of metal on the trigger. With
single arm triggers the trigger will have one hooked shaped piece of metal and one cut in
the receiver for it to fit into. The double arm trigger will have two hooked pieces of metal
and two cuts in the receiver. To check your rifle turn it upside down so that you can see
the trigger coming out of the receiver. If it has two cuts in the receiver with two metal
hooks going inside the receiver (one on each side of the trigger) then it is a double arm
trigger. If you only see one then you have a single arm trigger.

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Have you hugged your Assault Rifle today?

[Tantal]

Sorry, but "trigger snap" and double or single hook design has nothing to do with each other ,other than the fact that some single hook designs are reported to cause this problem. There are a variety of trigger designs, not just double or single hook designs. It is in these other differences that change the feel of the trigger action, not in the number of the hooks. You must look at geometry to find any problems. Simply having an extra hook adds drag and little else, it was deleted in Russia way back in 1950's, and several dozen million rifles ago. An eagle is a bird, but not all birds are eagles.

[Praetorian]

Tantal,
I agree about the double hook triggers. I do however, have a very real problem. I do not have a soft or sensitive finger, I am a construction electrician and I make a living with my hands they are strong and rough, not some hoity toity office boy's hands. Having handled firearms all my life and currently owning over 20 which I fire regularly qualifies my assesment that the trigger snap on this Romanian AK HURTS! No other rifle or pistol that I have ever owned does this. It has got me so irritated that I'm ready to sell this piece of third world shit and buy another AR-15. I have examined the geometric relationship of the fire control group and the exact description is in my previous post above. I can see no way to SAFELY modify any of the FCG parts to eliminate this annoyance. This is my first AK type rifle so I'm not as well read on them as I am on others. Is there a replacement parts set that will fit this rifle? Will these parts eliminate the problem? If the answer to these two questions is no, then there will be a LNIB SAR-1 for sale immediately.

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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[TURBO]

After getting "snapped on" the other day, I checked over the MaK-90. I have 3 other Ak's and none exhibit this phenomina...... I pulled the recoil spring and cocked the hammer. Showly pulled the trigger, and held position on release. Then pushed hammer back to catch disconnector. The disconnector snapped the trigger assy very lightly. I then repeated the dry fire, but this time cycled the carrier briskly to reset the trigger while it was pulled back more. The snap was greater, but by no means as sharp as when fired. I'll next pull the group from the reciever to examine for marks or distortions. I will replace the group if I find nothing, or repair if I do find a machinable fix. I suspect something with the disconnector fit to the trigger.

[Tantal]

Praetorian, I appreciate your comments, and you have convinced me that I would indded notice such a feeling if I encountered it. E-mail me your shipping address, and I will send you a trigger and disconnector that you can swap out and see if this solves your problem. these will be good parts that will fit your rifle, but not US made, but original military AKM pieces. This will tell me if the problem is associated with which part. If you decide to keep them, I will give you a good price, or you can send them back, at no charge to you. Let me know what you would like to do. My e-mail is krink@cst.net . Thanks, Tantal..

[Praetorian]

Tantal,
A most generous offer indeed. I will take you up on it in hopes that we solve the problem. I really want to like this rifle. A private E-mail is being sent with my particulars.


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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[TURBO]

I removed the trigger group tonight on the MAK-90. This rifle has fired 8-9, or 10,000 rounds over the years, and has served me well as I have seen to what maint. it required. But I noticed a very slight oval in the reciever holes, and a more pronounced oval in the trigger and disconnector holes. This wear made it necessary to pull the trigger back farther than my newer rifles, and positioned the disconnector hook at less an angle in its relation to the rebounding hammer. The hammer struck the disconnector hook so hard, that it was driven violently back to compress the coil spring, and peen about .006" material at the rear bottom surface of the trigger which is the mechanical stop for aft travel of the disconnector. I think a new trigger and disconnector can cure this condition by putting the geometry back to where the wear took it from. I hope this helps...........TURBO

[Praetorian]

Update!
Thanks to the generosity of Tantal, my trigger snap problem is gone. He sent me some new fire control parts and when installed removed the sore finger problem. I don't know the origin of the parts but their geometry must be right because they work very well. As a side benefit, I now have a much lighter trigger pull. I would say it's roughly 4lbs now whereas before it was around 10lbs. Thanks to everyone who replied to this topic and a big thanks to Tantal. Oh, and "the check is in the mail" hehe.


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Praetorian watches, listens, waits.....

[bruce]

Originally posted by Praetorian:

RE trigger snap

Just for interest, I had a preban Valmet, reported to be the best of all AK's. It was in really great shape and shot with AR type accuracy. The corners of the trigger tip were nicely machined, making them sharp. There was just enough space between the end of the trigger and the guard that when the aforementioned snap occured your finger would get pinched between the guard and the sharp end of the trigger! Talk about pain!
The guys in Finland who use Valmets always wore gloves, I guess.