New Here, Thinking about AR15 M4..Print your opinion here!

[Electricview]

Hello!! SHHHHH dont tell the ak47 guys i'm here :) I was formely hanging out in there..

Anyways I've been considering getting a second rifle, an AR15 If you haven't guessed :)I have an ak47 and its great, but i also favor the look and accuracy of the AR15... I've only shot one before in my life.. so i dont have very much experience with them, (or rifles in short)... So I'm looking for opinions here.. I am thinking i want the m4 model simply becuase i like that short front part (is it called the gas chamber? I dont know termonology yet) I'm not positive on anything yet, but i've been thinking i might go Bushmaster, simply becuase i can save around 200 to 250 bucks around here.. When i went into the store 8 months ago to get my ak, the guy tried to talk me into a bushy, but I remember telling him it was 500 bucks more expensive then the ak, so i think they are 800 bucks up here in WA.. And i think the colt is 1000... Would this be a bad decision going with a bush master over a colt? I've read lots of stuff about people tlaking about the 1 and 7 twist of a colt.. i read on bushy's site that this one i am looking at has a 1 in 9.. I dont really know exactly which is better.. or worse.. I'm not rich so saving 200 bucks is definately a good point to me..

I'm not sure but it looks like the bush master doesnt have a removable handle ? tho i think there is some models that do? i think i might like to have that option even if i never do remove it.. also i hear people call the stock on a bushy FAKE? or something? what does this mean? Is the busy going to be any less accurate then the colt? will it jam more? is it less reliable? Is there some other brand i should take into consideration? Remember coming from the ak47 part of the board, all i hear is how much ar15's jam and stuff... So i'm not sure what to expect or what differences there might be..

One last point.. The colt commando...

http://www.colt.com/colt/html/a2f14_commando3.html

It looks very interesting to me, i like the shorter barrel but i'm not sure if this will be way less accurate.. and i dont see one thats comparable by bush master.. Any thoughts on this one?



Lastly.. What things would you recommend for me to check on any of these guns if i waltz into the gunstore anytime soon.. Things that i need to make sure check out on a well produced rifle?.. Anything else i should know about? What prices should they go for? Is it cheaper to buy it on the net and have it shipped? My dealers charge 35 bucks to have a firearm transfered to them.. (sounds steep to me)...

Thanks in advance!

[sfc ret]

I would go with the BUSHMASTER, they are great rifles......if you go with a colt you're going to be paying extra, just because of the name on it.

stay away from hesse, ASA they are pure garbage.


some folks are fixated on chrome barrel, and chamber......simply because the military has chrome barrels on the M16....but realistically you are not going to abuse the rifle like a soldier would, so the idea of a chrome barrel is more of, ohhh look I got a chrome barrel. you will shoot a lot better groups without a chrome barrel, because it will bite into the rifling.

as for the difference in twist rate...1/7 is what the military called for........the 1/9 is a happy medium between a 1/12 that was on the M16A1 and the 1/7. it will fire both the lighter 55 and heavier 62 gr. with about the same accuracy. with a 1/7 twist barrel, the barrel will wear out a bit faster then a 1/9 would.


what they mean by 'fake" stock is that the collapsible stock is pin in place or glued, so it cannot be extended or collapsed, which would violate the 94 crime bill.

as for the commando, you are looking at a LEO only type weapon, 11.5 inches, with a collapsible stock, select fire .....which you would not be able to buy. you can buy what is commonly refered to a M4forgery.....that is a a upper with a 16 in. barrel with the step cut into the barrel that is used to clear the grenade launcher barrel.

you could do the paperwork for a SBR, and pay a 200 dollar tax, and get a post ban 11.5 upper and put it on your lower...if your state allows SBRs.

a detachable carry handle is a nice feature, it will allow you to scope your rifle...personally I'm not a big fan of it, but that's just me....if you like it then get one with that feature, you will probably pay a little more for one with that feature...... depending on how much extra a detachable handle would cost Vs. a fixed one... if it is more then 24 bucks, then you can get a LEATHERWOOD scope mount from

http://www.clipsnstuff.com/ar15.htm


as for jamming....the main culprit for jamming is the mag, or a exteremly very dirty rifle. if you keep it clean and buy decent mags you won't have a problem. if you do have some problems with the rifle itself, they come with warranty....ARMILITE has a life time warranty for the original buyer.

shorter vs. longer barrel....someone else who is more knowledgeable in this area can answer that....I have found that my 16" EAGLE ARMS XM177 clone and my 24" BUSHMASTER...has about the same accuracy, at 200 yds.

I would buy the rifle from a reputable dealer then by internet.... this way I would be able to examine the rifle personally, before buying it....the first thing you need to do is a function check on it, to see if everything in the lower works like it's suppose to. at the same time check to see it has smooth action when you charge it. look at the overall workmanship of it ie. Finish and final assembly. amke sure you get all the paperwork that comes with it, like the warranty card.

[Electricview]

Wow!! great information!! thank you tons!! let me just put a few other follow up question to you here..

1. So the colt commndo is definately out of the question becuase its so short it doesn't pass that law .. gotcha..

2. I cannt get a collapsable stock and put it onto the gun becuase it would then make it illegal correct? (would it even fit on the rifle or is the stock permantly fixed on it?)

3. I dont care so much if its a chrome barrel or not, i'd rather have something that WONT wear out as fast.

4. I'm not sure what an SBR is but i am not interesting in paying 200 dollars TAX just for that :) so i'll pass on it.

5.ARMLITE gives a lifetime warranty huh? thats pretty nice, Would they be more expensive or less then a bushmaster?

6. Okay check for the action, should it be smooth with no grinding feeling or stopping? (think how an ak47 kind of feels like its grinding when you cycle it) Also, When you say Lower, what is that? the mid section of the rifle?

and lastly, what about buying the parts seperately and building the rifle myself, it has been suggested and that it might even save me af few hundred dollars.. is this true? is it hard or complex to assmble one? is there welding involved?

I would mainly be using the ar15 for plinking, not going to enter any contests or anything like that.. just like the look and feel of one and would like to have one to take to the range occasoinally..

Thank you for your help info so far!

[sfc ret]

Originally posted by Electricview
Wow!! great information!! thank you tons!! let me just put a few other follow up question to you here..

1. So the colt commndo is definately out of the question becuase its so short it doesn't pass that law .. gotcha..

2. I cannt get a collapsable stock and put it onto the gun becuase it would then make it illegal correct? (would it even fit on the rifle or is the stock permantly fixed on it?)

the stock will fit on any AR....but the buffer would have to swapped out for the smaller size one. the stock can be taken off the lower.

3. I dont care so much if its a chrome barrel or not, i'd rather have something that WONT wear out as fast.

4. I'm not sure what an SBR is but i am not interesting in paying 200 dollars TAX just for that :) so i'll pass on it.

SBR stand for short barrel rifle....all rifles have to be 16 inches or more....anything less then 16 inches, and you would have to register it with ATF on a form 1, signed by a chief LEO, along with fingerprints, passport photo and 200 bucks.

5.ARMLITE gives a lifetime warranty huh? thats pretty nice, Would they be more expensive or less then a bushmaster?

not real sure on that, but it would probably be in the same ball park price range as the bushmaster, for a stand AR...when you start adding on extras like flutted barrel, chrome lining, competition trigger etc... then your talking bigger bucks.


6. Okay check for the action, should it be smooth with no grinding feeling or stopping? (think how an ak47 kind of feels like its grinding when you cycle it) Also, When you say Lower, what is that? the mid section of the rifle?

function check for a AR would be....

1. place selector on fire, charge it. then release the bolt.

2. place the selector on safe, and pull trigger, weapon should not fire.

3. place selector on fire, pull trigger, weapon fires.

4. with your finger holding back on the trigger, charge the bolt, then release..... then slowly release the trigger....you should hear a metallic click. then pull trigger the weapon will fire.


when you charge the bolt, it should have no stoppage, griding noise, you may hear the spring compress when the bolt goes into the stock, that is normal, but there should be no hesistation in the rearward motion, and when you release the charging handle it should fly without hesitation or jerkyness. you will find that the AR is a more precise made weapon then a AK.


the term lower means the assembly that houses the FCG, stock, pistol grip....the whole lower part that sepearates from the upper part by the 2 pins

upper means the entire upper part of the weapon when you seperate it from the lower, by the pins.




and lastly, what about buying the parts seperately and building the rifle myself, it has been suggested and that it might even save me af few hundred dollars.. is this true? is it hard or complex to assmble one? is there welding involved?

there is no weelding involved in assemblying a AR......however it is not for the novice, you will need knowledge and the right tools to put one together, a lot can go wrong if it is not put together right. and if you do screw up you will not have any other recourse but to take it to a gunsmith, and you will pay a lot for him to make it right. besides that, if you don't headspace it correctly you will have a very bad day at the range.

my advice get a factory assembled one...you will have the piece of mind that it was put together right, and you have a warranty on it....assembled guns are not warranty and you are putting your life on your skills on putting it together, by your hands....not to try to scare you, but when your dealing with something like a rifle, and you don't know what your doing in putting one together, it could be dangerous.



I would mainly be using the ar15 for plinking, not going to enter any contests or anything like that.. just like the look and feel of one and would like to have one to take to the range occasoinally..

that is what I use mine for, along with all my other weapons.....you will find that the AR is very accurate and a joy to shoot. you will be able to hit what you are aiming at, it is zeroed correctly, at 300 meters.

Thank you for your help info so far!

your very welcome :)

[RJ Shooter]

Here's some not too good pics of my Bushmaster M4A3. It has a flat-top upper receiver and "phony" collapsable stock. The non-collapsable has a full-length tube, buffer and spring. I find it very comfortable, but miss the ability to collapse it like on my CAR15.

The barrel, with 1/9 twist, is 14.5" with a permanently attached 1.5" Mini-Y compensator on the end bringing it to the legal 16". The comp is very effective, but quite loud for those standing adjacent to the shooter. This is due to the way it redirects the gases during firing.

I use good magazines and have not had any malfunctions as of yet. It is very accurate to and beyond 200 meters as sfc ret has stated

http://www.netwalk.com/~rjandla/aknet/m4a3.jpg

[Electricview]

Awsome thank you very much for showing me the pics...

A few questions about your bushy there..

Whats the difference between those flashhiders/comps that split the fire into a kind of star shape.. Does yours basically split the fire into a Y shape?

Its permanently fixed on it so it cannot be removed? Welded?


Just an odd question, how much kick does this rifle have? I know my ak at 7.62 gives me a nice little jerk in the shoulder.. (nothing painfull or anything just a good kick).. I was under the impression that 5.56 is the least punch out of the 3 sizes (7.62, 5.45 and 5.56) or is it the 5.45 thats the least?

Also is it hard to pull back the bolt on an AR? It looks as tho you must use 2 or 3 fingers only to grasp it..


I like the pictures, the only thing that looks a little wierd to me, is the way the barrel at the end of the gun kind of gets smaller then big again then smaller again then the compensator.. how come it has this "beveled" effect instead of a straight barrel in say the "shorty"

I think i'm narrowing it down to the bushy M4 A3 or the Shorty A3... not sure which one, or what price differences they share..

before i make a fool of my self, Let me ask this.. When they call the rifle a carbine is that becuase its shorter (16 inches) or are all the ar15's carbines?

[gr8vfr]

My suggestion to you to save money would be to buy a Rock River assembled lower, approx $150.00.
Then surf eBay for your upper.
I have purchase BM and RRA complete uppers for 300.00.
Colt uppers for 400.00.

Rock River Arms has some nice craftsmanship these days.
If you want accuracy get a 20" barrel upper.
Most 16" barrels are the CAR15. If they have really short front handgaurds it will be an M4gery.

As for Colt being expensive, it is like owning a Porche compared to a Neon RT. Both will get you to the same place. More people want to fondle a Colt at the range.

I have several Colts and they shoot as well as my RRA and BMs.

Good luck.

[RJ Shooter]

Whats the difference between those flashhiders/comps that split the fire into a kind of star shape.. Does yours basically split the fire into a Y shape?
Yes, the two ports on either side angle the gases (not the fire) at an angle rearward. It will not affect the shooter, but those beside the shooter can sure hear it. :) Compensators are not flash-hiders. Flash-hiders, are illegal on post-ban rifles, but compensators are not. They make comps that look like hiders however. :)

Its permanently fixed on it so it cannot be removed? Welded?
It is permanent. I would gather that it is welded, but there are no welds visible. A very clean rifle over-all.

Just an odd question, how much kick does this rifle have? I know my ak at 7.62 gives me a nice little jerk in the shoulder.. (nothing painfull or anything just a good kick).. I was under the impression that 5.56 is the least punch out of the 3 sizes (7.62, 5.45 and 5.56) or is it the 5.45 thats the least?
I never notice the kick. I have a 5.45 also. They are comparable in recoil, but like I said. I don't really notice anything.

Also is it hard to pull back the bolt on an AR? It looks as tho you must use 2 or 3 fingers only to grasp it..
The standard method is thumb on left side, index finger on right side of charging handle. But I frequently practice drills from the shoulder using two fingers on just the left side of the charging handle. It is not hard at all.

I like the pictures, the only thing that looks a little wierd to me, is the way the barrel at the end of the gun kind of gets smaller then big again then smaller again then the compensator.. how come it has this "beveled" effect instead of a straight barrel in say the "shorty"
This is because it is an M4 clone, and not a CAR15. :) The barrel is relieved for an M203 Grenade Launcher, which of course I won't be getting...

before i make a fool of my self, Let me ask this.. When they call the rifle a carbine is that becuase its shorter (16 inches) or are all the ar15's carbines?
Webster's definition of Carbine: a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry. I think most people consider a rifle with a barrel length less than 20" a carbine.

[Electricview]

Okay Thank you! Great question answering all around!!

I've also been exchanging emails with a fellow from another ar15 board, and he said i should probably skip trying to assemble my own weapon... Saying if its not correctly it can lead to long times of zeroing in, or just inacuracy completely or even hazardous if i made big mistakes.. He suggests just buying a completely assembled rifle to be done with it.. Tho after hearing gr8vrf's suggestion, it seems like i could come out spending maybe 500 and have an ar15... that is alot cheaper then the 799 price tag of a new bushy m4...

I'm not sure what to do now.. i'm all for saving those 300 bucks.. but at the same time i'm all for not screwing assemling it correctly tooo..(meaning just buying one thats already done). I dont consider myself bad a mechanical stuff, i just have REALLY bad luck when ever i try to do projects.. its like god does not want me to do projects on my own!

Any suggestions?

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Electricview
Okay Thank you! Great question answering all around!!

I've also been exchanging emails with a fellow from another ar15 board, and he said i should probably skip trying to assemble my own weapon... Saying if its not correctly it can lead to long times of zeroing in, or just inacuracy completely or even hazardous if i made big mistakes.. He suggests just buying a completely assembled rifle to be done with it.. Tho after hearing gr8vrf's suggestion, it seems like i could come out spending maybe 500 and have an ar15... that is alot cheaper then the 799 price tag of a new bushy m4...

I'm not sure what to do now.. i'm all for saving those 300 bucks.. but at the same time i'm all for not screwing assemling it correctly tooo..(meaning just buying one thats already done). I dont consider myself bad a mechanical stuff, i just have REALLY bad luck when ever i try to do projects.. its like god does not want me to do projects on my own!

Any suggestions? It's completely up to you! You can't ask us to make that kind of decision for ya. :D

I have built my own before with great success. I built the CAR15 below in the late 80's. I had both the A2 stock pictured (sturdier when I was hunting groundhogs) and also a collapsable. The decision is yours friend...

http://www.netwalk.com/~rjandla/aknet/car15.jpg

[Electricview]

Okay i've decided to go with the Bush master M4 with removable handle for 879 at the local store.. I think thats a good choice for me at this point.. Thanks again for everyones feedback!

[Electricview]

Well i WAS going to get one, but every store here is sold out, and has no idea when any will be back in stock.. Thanks for the information tho anyways guys.. Maybe one day i'll get one :)

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Electricview
Well i WAS going to get one, but every store here is sold out, and has no idea when any will be back in stock.. Thanks for the information tho anyways guys.. Maybe one day i'll get one :) AIM Surplus has the Bushy M4A3 for $819 right now! You might want to check it out and maybe have it sent to your FFL.

It won't be listed on their website, but they are in their latest flyer, and they were in stock at my visit to their store last month.

www.aimsurplus.com

[Electricview]

Wow i actually found a store a little further out from me that says they have them,. not too bad either 849.99... a little more then aim.. but then again i get to inspect the rifle and check it out while i'm there..


Going out tomorrow to inspect and see.. I'll post pictures if i do get it :)

[damion]

Buying over the internet isn't all that bad. You have an inspection period at the dealer's business. This allows you to check the rifle and return it if there is a problem. I've purchased a couple of rifles and so far no problems. Remember, most of the sellers are a business and don't need the negative feedbacks. If you didn't buy one yet, there is a bushmaster M4, fixed collapsible stock, muzzle brake for $775. www.gunbroker.cm

[Electricview]

I already bought it.. !! :D

Here is 3 pictures of it!! i wanted the A3 modem by the way :)

http://home.attbi.com/~kkristek/P1002064.jpg
http://home.attbi.com/~kkristek/P1002065.jpg
http://home.attbi.com/~kkristek/P1002066.jpg

thanks again guys for your help! I've already ordered 2 orlight 30 rounders and gonna get 2 USGI 20 rounders from another group for 20 bucks each.. not bad!!

[StrkAliteN]

Electricview .....

If you are cash strapped - keep your eye on the little nickel in town. I just bought a late 80's Pre ban CAR AR 15 in like new condition yesterday for $900 out of local Seattle paper. It came with 4 hi cap mags / very nice camo variable scope / cleaning kit / soft side assault carrying case and 200 rounds of ammo. Gun is in as new condition. I am very pleased with AR and price I got it at.

Country is in a recession and some folks ( Boeing workers etc ) are unloading their toys onto the market. keep your eyes open for a used deal.

[Karsten]

Nice looking AR there.

Now you just need the M4 profile handgaurd with heat shield, Mini Rail and a Fobus front vertical grip.
E Mail me if you need a source for the Handgaurds, grip or some extra mags.

A word or advice......Buy only USGI mags and be happy. Stay away from the After Market stuff.

Clean and lube with BreakFree CLP.

Pick up a butt stock cleaning kit with chamber brush and oil bottle and toss it in the range bag.

Good Luck

Karsten

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Karsten
Now you just need the M4 profile handgaurd with heat shield, Mini Rail and a Fobus front vertical grip.

E Mail me if you need a source for the Handgaurds, grip or some extra mags.Bushmaster handguards are milspec and have the heatshield (They had the M4 contract before FN), but I'm guessing you're talking about the SOPMOD RIS foregrips. Armalite supplies them and they are pretty damned expensive. :D

How much can you get the Fobus M33 handguards for? I don't like Fobus' vertical grip (I prefer a broomhandle or Armalite "K" grip like below), but I do like their handguards...

Here is USSOCOM's lovely SOPMOD M4 :)
http://album.gunsnet.net/data/rjshooter/full_214_p1934.jpg

[Karsten]

RJ Shooter,

I guess it is just the angle the pic's were taken at that is making the Handgaurds appear the be the standard shorty handgaurds.

As for the Fobus grip send email to hyd7181@bellsouth.net

ElectricView....Also if you rub a couple coats of BreakFree CLP on the Lower Reciever it will darken it so it matchs the Upper.

Good Luck and have fun now.

Karsten

[Electricview]

But will that keep it oily feeling? and when it dries wont it be back to its unmatching color again?.. could i do the same to the barrel too?

[Karsten]

ElectricView,

Most uppers and lowers are Manganesse Phosfate (? spelling) and if you rub some CLP on them they soak it up and go black again.

I picked up a Colt A1 SP1 very early upper (No FA or SD) and it was grey........Soaked it with some CLP and bingo, it is dark agian.

Good luck with your new found friend.

Karsten

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by Electricview
But will that keep it oily feeling? and when it dries wont it be back to its unmatching color again?.. could i do the same to the barrel too? Just oil them both and then wipe them both down. They are the same color, one's just dried out some and probably has had fingers pawing on it :)

Bushmasters should have nice, flat, rich, powder-coated black look afterwards. The pic of mine above was the same day I got it. It looks even better now...

[PeteyPete]

ElectricView, that is one beautiful rifle.......I might have to go the Bushy M4 route one of these days....very nice!!

[Electricview]

Thanks! just took her out for another test run of 300 rounds of some SA ammo.... not too bad but the smell was awful from that ammo... almost worse than wolf! :) I'm getting alot better in my shootings now i can almost keep it in the black the entire time with the battle sites at 50 yards.. and i've only shot it twice!

[mikeinkc]

Here`s mine. I built up a RRA lower and found a Dpms M4 upper at the KC show this weekend.
http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=mikeinkc&album_id=37357&image_id=12&courtesy=1

[RJ Shooter]

My Bushy since I put a couple of toys on her...

http://album.gunsnet.net/data/rjshooter/395_p3452.jpg

[Electricview]

Nice! its so nice to look at them :) and i like the smaller hand guard then the colt has.. personally.

[ltrmp]

Thanks to all you guys, I'm new to the AR-15 also and had several questions but between the "stickys" and the reading most have been answered. Just one more, what is the diff between what I've seen listed as CAR-15, FAR-15 etc? is this just a manufacturers designation of the same basic style?

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by ltrmp
Thanks to all you guys, I'm new to the AR-15 also and had several questions but between the "stickys" and the reading most have been answered. Just one more, what is the diff between what I've seen listed as CAR-15, FAR-15 etc? is this just a manufacturers designation of the same basic style? Never ever heard of a FAR-15....there are FAL rifles that are not at all related to the AR15 series of rifles.

AR-15 is the term usually associated with the style of rifle and is commonly placed on the 20" bbl'ed full size AR in either the A1, A2 or A3 configuration. A1's had a less adjustable rear sight and triangular front handguards. The A2's have a fully adjustable rear sight and the round handguards you see in these pics. A3's have the same rear sight as the A2 but the whole carrying handle/sight unit can be removed to reveal a flat-top upper receiver to mount optics, etc like in the SOPMOD image above.

The CAR-15 is the Carbine (Carbine AR15). M4's are a newer, shorter version of the CAR-15 and often have an A3 Upper.

I could go on and on for ya...

[Electricview]

And that is what i got, a Bushmaster M4 carbine.. its an A3 with the removable handle and it has a shorter 16 inch barrel with compensator on it.. I just shot today actually.. the sad part was at 100 yards i did FAR better with my AKM then i did with the ar15!!! isn't that sad?!?! I dont know what it is about the ar's sites but i just cant hit the damn black circle at 100 yards with it.. the ak was not so bad.. about 60% of the time i was getting in the black circle...

[ltrmp]

Thanks RJ Shooter.