Steel Core 7.62x39mm

[Devil Dog]

OK, steel core 7.62x39mm ammunition has been classified as armor piercing, but just how effective is it at piercing armor plate or
"bullet proof" vests/body armor? I recall
many years ago shooting at 1/8" steel plates at near piont blank range with Chinese steel core ball, and getting an occasional penetration. This is nothing like what I would call "armor piercing" performance. Does anyone have information regarding scientific tests that would verify the AP qualities of this cartridge? Obviously this cartridge was designed for economy of manufacture rather than AP performance, but does it's
performance really justify the price that it is commanding? I have seen tests that suggest that flat based, lead core ball in this caliber is actually more lethal than the boat tailed, steel core ball, due to the tendency of the flat based projectile to tumble on impact and during penetration.
Comments?

D.D.

[Necron99]

Don't know enough about the penetration of steel plate, but any fmj ak round will consistently penetrate "soft" targets eg. unarmored vehicles, with enough energy to be lethal. As far as penetrating kevlar or spectra shield ballistic vests, any fmj rifle round will cut through these like a hot knife through butter, the only exception is if the round hits a hardened steel or cermet (an aluminum and ceramic composite) insert in the vest. Bulletproof vests cannot catch these rounds that have small diameters, high velocities and a "slippery" profile (imagine a bulletproof vest as a net which is what it is, rather than a deflector in the case of a steel plate or windshield). They are best at stopping hollowpoint pistol rounds. Some of the class II vests have problems stopping submachinegun 9mm fmj fired from longer submachinegun barrels for the same reasons. .45ACP rounds on the other hand are very easy to stop because of large diameter and slow velocity. A very lethal round that has more penetration is the ss109 round (5.56 NATO). I'm amazed they haven't tried to ban this round, I mean even the boxes often say "steel penetrator". This was a Belgium round adopted by NATO to fix the serious penetration shortcomings of the m193 round (55 grain fmj). I wouldn't shell out any extra 7.62X39 steel core rounds. If you want something with real penetration, get a full powered rifle round, 7.62NATO, .30-06, ,.300Win Mag or .50 cal. Chuck Taylor has written several excellent books addressing the vital aspects of firearm use, including penetration. He has one on submachinegun use and one on battle rifles, I can't remember the titles, they're pretty self explanatory eg. The combat submachine gun, The Battle Rifle, something like that. A computer search at any bookstore should reveal the titles.

[TinMan99]

I bought a ton of .223 steel core russian and squirrled it away in airtight steel cans. Russian sporting ammo in 62-grain is steel core. I know because I pulled a bullet and it stuck like glue to a strong magnet. I'm going to buy another 200-rds next gunshow and squirrel that off as well. I pray it never comes where I have to dig this stuff up.

TinMan99

[JA]

In 1994 BATF classified 7.62x39mm steel core as armor pericing because Oylimpic Arms made a semi auto AR-15 pistol in 7.62x39mm.
It is not a true AP round. The steel core is not hardened.
I don't know about shooting through armor but it will out penatrate ss109 in wood and steel. Been there done that several times.
The steel core brings the 7.62x39 up to 7.62x51mm level in penatration on steel. SC will go through more wood than the .308.
Tested this on oak trees that were later cut down to make a lake. Except one 24" oak that fell after being shot with 130 rounds of SC.
Friend shooting AR-15 with ss109 wouldn't penatrate tree. His Korean war vet dad said SKS was Piece of Commie %$##$#@$ and wouldn't own one. After the tree fell friend and dad bought 5 SKS's and 10 cases of SC the next week.

[Necron99]

I have to agree with JA on the .223 vs. 7.62X39 issue. I had this argument in the general discussion forum under "ak74 or m16 which is better". The .223 is a .22 on steroids, and all the fancy engineering is still not going to change the laws of physics. A heavier bullet (123gr AK)carrying the same amount of energy as a lighter bullet (55gr to 69gr .223)will penetrate intermediate materials deeper and also be less likely to deflect if it first impacts the target at an angle. That's why I got rid of my Ar-15's and kept my AK's. ss109 tests were done and evaluated at penetration of steel helmets and steel plate with penetration criteria mainly focusing on maximum range, vs. other NATO rounds that were being considered for adoption. I did not mean to imply that the ss109 has better penetration characterics than even lead fmj 7.62X39 (although that's what it sounds like I did), because generally it doesn't. Also a note on lethality of .223: when people talk about how deadly .223 is, this is due to the fact that at under 150 meters or so the bullets tend to rapidly rip apart creating multiple wound channels or tumble/keyhole. At farther distances, these bullets don't have the velocity and tension in the case of ss109(created by the fast 1in7 twist) to do these things and you get a .22 cal wound. Great if you hit the target directly but say bye bye to penetration if the target is behind say a solid wall. The 7.62X39 round was generally a copy, at least in concept, of the German 7.92X33 round developed for the sturmgewehr 44'. The round 7.92X33 is designed specifically to engage targets under 300 meters (in most cases under 50 meters) with rapid firing capability and sufficient penetration to hit targets taking cover in buildings, behind trees etc... in that role it excels and it was one of the competitors in early NATO guns (most notably the FAL) before the US insisted the adoption of the .308Win for political/money motivated reasons. Whew! Hope I didn't bore you to death with that one.

[McSniper]

I have come accross a few hundred rounds of Norinco steel core. What should I be willing to pay for it?

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[Jaeger]

Tinman99,

If the ammo you are referring to is the new manufacture Russian 62gr. .223 that comes in a red, white and blue box then it is NOT steel core. It has a copper washed steel jacket with a lead core.

[56s]

Hello all,
I can remember when the Russian Short 308 steel core was $75.00 for a 1100 round case sold in cans of 550 on stripper clips, the old days!
We used to shoot at truck rims and it would make perfect circles right through them.
I have seen people selling this stuff for $00.50 a round! WOW
I still have two case's hanging around and I don't plan on breaking those cans open any time soon, OUT
Yes it is Chinese steel core and steel case and no I don't have any idea what you should pay for it, sorry.

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56s-2



[This message has been edited by 56s (edited May 27, 1999).]

[McSniper]

It is 7.62x39 Norinco steel case,steel core. Any idea on what I should be willing to pay?

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[Johan762]

Necron99:

You said 7.62X39 rounds would out penetrate SS109? How can it be? SS109 out penetrate even the 7.62X51 cartridge (against steel helmet and "NATO plate", whatever that is) during a NATO test in the late 70s.

Johannes

[Necron99]

Just depends on the materials. I'm familiar with the NATO tests results on the NATO plate, FRG helmet, and US helmet. These tests were based on minimum penetration at the farthest range, and yes the ss109 even beat out the 7.62 NATO (fmj lead core). However through materials like trees, car doors (which have gaps between the panels and glass), angled windshields, sandbags, the bullet doesn't convert. I have had personal experiences similiar to JA's, particularly at close ranges (100 meters or less). .223 rounds just either deflect, shatter/rip up or keyhole quickly. They often hit the first layer of an intermediate material (eg car door) and then hit the next layer partially sideways, which takes alot of energy to go through the next layer if it doesn't deflect outright. This makes for a very lethal round at these ranges, but the trade of is if there is something between you and target, it is less likely to get hit by said round. That's just from my own little experiments at short ranges, but I don't have a 500+ meter range to drag out a car door or washer to (I'd be lucky to hit them at this range anyway). I was using Norinco "match" 7.62X39(the old copper washed lead core fmj) vs. Israeli ss109 both from 16" barrels, AK vs Car-15. It's great to find forums where this can be discussed and hear everyone's input. I'm certainly no expert on ballistics. Anyone else have any inputs? MCSniper, the answer to that question is more of a personal matter, how badly do you think you "need" it. I've generally seen it with a brown steel case, Norinco mfg. I bought a case of the steel core stuff almost by accident (all I knew at the time was it was AK ammo, apparently that's all he knew too) off a guy five years ago for dirt cheap. I still have it and won't waste it on an afternoon's plinking, but I think the lead core fmj stuff is a perfectly adequate cartridge. In my case I'm not willing to pay any premium for the steel core stuff, but since a premium is demanded in this market it looks like I'm SOL, I'll stick to the lead core. If you can find it at a gunshow, and the price seems steep, give'm a reasonable offer you never know what will happen.