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Devil Dog
08-24-1999, 11:48 PM
I just completed a series of tests to determine the armor piercing qualities of the 7.62x39 cartridge. The targets were
mild steel plates 12" x 12" x 1/8", 3/16"
and 1/4 ". All firing was done at 25 paces with the target plates held vertical in a wooden stand. Firing was done offhand with a pre-ban AKM type rifle. Cartridges used were Chinese and Bulgarian steel core ball, Chinese lead core ball with steel jacket, Russian hollow point with steel jacket, and Soviet Armor Piercing Incendiary (steel jacket, hardened steel core and White Phosphorus point filler).
All cartridge types easily penetrated all
individual thickness plates, including the 1/4" thick plate. The plates were then stacked one in front of the other, with the 3/16" plate in front of the 1/4" plate followed by the 1/8" thick plate. there was an approximate 1/8" gap between the plates. This is where things got interesting.
All projectiles penetrated the first plate, but the Russian hollow point disentigrated upon contact with the second plate, leaving a moderate dent. The lead core ball projectile left a larger dent in the second plate and "mushroomed" into a near perfect half-sphere shape with the core and jacket typicly remaining together.
The steel core ball left an even larger dent in the 1/4" second plate, somewhat "mushrooming" with the core and jacket staying together and the steel core swaging itself into the shape of the dent on the plate. About half of the test shots were actually imbedded in the second plate and
were difficult to remove. The Soviet API
projectile shed it's jacket during penetration of the first plate with a rather large "puff" of white smoke and the pointed, hardened steel core penetrated the second and third plates. The core actually broke in half at the mid-point, with the rear half stuck in the 1/4" plate and the front portion sticking out of the last plate (1/8"). Overall results were disappointing as the steel core ball cartridges showed little increase in penetration over the lead core
projectiles and the API projectile proved to be a disappointment in that expected penetration was not acheived. A second round of tests will be conducted using thicker plates, as I beleive that the gap between plates spoiled the momentum and balistic shape of the projectile from plate to plate. The poor performance of the Soviet
API could explain why the Soviets did not produce this type after the late 1950's

D.D.

Destroyer
08-25-1999, 01:35 AM
Interesting. Thanks for the post. I always love reading ammo test results.

Necron99
08-25-1999, 02:20 AM
Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell some people who are obsessed with steel core AK ammo. The lead core fmj does almost as well. It has decent penetration characteristics, for house to house, urban or high terrain density fighting, just like its predecessor the 7.92Kurz(7.92x33) developed by the Germans in WWII. Thanks for the test results, they are definitely more scientific than some of the field tests I've done with 7.62x39 vs .223 .

TJKeeg
08-25-1999, 11:26 PM
Liked your ammo test results also thanks for your opinion on best ammo poll.

Ivan8883
08-27-1999, 12:10 AM
I have 12 rds of ap black tipped 762x 39. I got them at a gun show several years ago and havent seen them since. Havent shot them because they are so rare. Have shot the steel core through railroad tie plates at 25 yards.

Bryant
08-27-1999, 04:43 AM
I have a 40 round clip that has a mix of tracer and steel core, it is my "shit hits the fan" mag. But most FMJ will do what I want anyway.

Devil Dog
08-27-1999, 10:33 PM
Hey Ivan8883!

Could you describe your black tipped AP?
What is the headstamp and case material?

True military issue AP with black tip in this caliber is extremely rare and I wonder if what you have is some newer, aftermarket reloads?

Later manufacture Chinese API has a black tip and a "two piece" type projectile tip, but are also scarce, even to collectors.

Just curious!

D.D.

orland_5
08-28-1999, 01:58 AM
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[This message has been edited by orland_5 (edited 11-17-1999).]

Garmentless
10-28-1999, 01:56 PM
I went to a scrap yard & tested FNM 55gr .223 and ChiCom 123gr steel core ammo. Both were shot from 20" barrels, both at 15 yds. I shot a cast iron man-hole (the protruding kind). The .223 made a penetrating rip in the side, the 7.62x39 only a dent. Shots into water produced perfectly preserved 7.62 bullets and shattered .223 slugs.

Destroyer
10-29-1999, 02:24 AM
Yes, I'd be one happy Destroyer if I could afford a nice M1A, the second best military rifle in the world... .30's kick ass!

Heavy Metal
10-29-1999, 02:35 AM
If you REALLY want to have fun on penetration tests, get a M1A or a FAL or a HK and you can really mess some stuff up!!

Garth Odinson
10-30-1999, 12:11 AM
All this AK talk is making my trigger finger itch. Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents worth.

I used to be a big hollow point and exotic bullet fan (still am for pistol calibers); however, I recently changed my mind about a few things. First, it seems from all of the things I read, that the differences are nominal when talking about rifle calibers. Second, accuracy is more important to me now, because how much a round can penetrate, doesn't mean squat if it doesn't hit the target. Third, I recently shot some Sellier Bellot out of my .45, and the ammo outperformed me; I shot one hole groups - if their rifle ammo is the same, I'm buying cases.

Front sights up!

vucetic
11-20-1999, 01:23 AM
Where can a guy buy some(20+) AP 7.62??? I would love to fill at least one 30rd mag. I've got cash in hand if anyone will sell or tell me where to find it. Thanks!

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[This message has been edited by vucetic (edited 11-21-1999).]

Cogito Ergo Zoom
11-21-1999, 11:12 PM
Devil Dog, and others who are interested

I have a local source for "exotic" military ammo. I have bought some AP/API and tracer from him. From what little I know this is the real stuff - not the crap that is commercial reloads or SS109 passed off as AP.

I do know he has (or had) some Chinese API thermite with the two piece projectile (marked with a red and black). I forget what else he has with regards to 7.62x39 (certainly a lot of tracer), but I managed to snag 5 rounds of 7.62x51 true US military SLAP (with the SLAP headstamp and tungsten carbide projectile). I have not tested it because this was the only stuff I could get and he cannot find anymore.

He did say that he tested the S. African tracer and found it unsatisfactory.

I will try to find his email address at home if anybody is interested.

FWIW,
LCB

Devil Dog
11-21-1999, 11:32 PM
For what it is worth, 7.62x39mm API has proven disappointing in my tests for armor piercing ability. It proved only slightly better than standard steel core ball overall. The incendiary compound in these cartridges
is White Phosphorus, not Thermite, and does make quite a show upon impact!
These API usually go for about $5.00 each in collector circles, whis is a far cry from the
$20 each or more for an incendiary/tracer
in 7.62x39mm from a collector!

Devil Dog

labrat454
11-22-1999, 11:07 AM
As for the 308 M1A, I fired standard American Eagle brand 147-150gr in to 3/8" steel plate at about 65 feet. All rounds went right through the steel plate. I place a 1/8" aluminum plate behind the 3/8" steel plate and the 308 woundn't go throught the steel plate. The steel "plug" the bullet was tring to push out was stoped by the AL. plate, kinda of a lamination thing. That is not to say the steel plate didn't get hurt real bad on that round. Over the holiday weekend I'm going to do some more test up to 3/4" with 308 and 1/2" with the AK.

labrat454

vucetic
11-24-1999, 05:05 AM
Cogito, I would appreciate the e-mail address. Thanks-mv

Cogito Ergo Zoom
11-27-1999, 10:09 PM
vucetic,

Okay - I will try to find it. If I cannot then I will get it again at the next gun show.

FWIW,
LCB