Budget Tac gear

[XOX]

I asked the people on Glock Talk to help my freind make an informed decision on a centerfire, combat capable, rifle and pistol. On a tight budget. With their advice, we ended up choosing a Helwan 9mm and an SKS (20rd fixed mag). Now we are looking for gear (ammo pouches, backpacks, etc.) again, on a tight budget.

Ammo pouch...We chose the standard SKS chest puch. We didn't see any others to choose from (what other methosd are there of carrying loaded stripper clips?) and they are available and affodable.

Back Pack...He already owns an alice pack. Too bad he paid way too much for it a year ago.

Belt, Canteen x2, E-tool...US surplus.

Knife...M7 bayonet, just using it as an affordable knife, again tight budget.

That is all he has so far. However, we plan on getting three days worth of MRE's and a buttpack. We dont know if the suspenders will conflict with the SKS ammo pouch, this concerns us since it is his only way of carrying ready ammo. What do you say? Also will holsters that fit the Beretta 92 also fit the Helwan? We need info on water purification/filters, on which we are both clueless.

Looking for thoughts on miscellaneous gear, fire starting equipement, how many changes of clothes shelter (what about those poncho/tent things). Especially which military surplus boots offer good value to dollar ratios.

This is kind of cool for me, helping my freind out. I get to teach a few things and learn alot, for us both.

We are working on a fixed budget and only have $400 left.

Thanks.
XOX

[akdreams]

www.cheaperthandirt.com (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com)
They have Cases of MRE's for sale for $25. I havent ordered any yet but i might do it today. They do have belt pouches too for the SKS which are only around 5 or 6 dollars. www.bradleys-military.com (http://www.bradleys-military.com) I found this site in the General forum the other day and they have good prices on all their field gear. Let us know how you make out.

[BIGWINR69]

BEFORE YOU SETTLE ON THAT HELWAN LOOK INTO ANY HI-POWER CLONE FEG,ARCUS WHATEVER THERE A LITTLE BIT MORE SAY $25 BUCKS AND YOU GET BETTER DEPENDEIBLITY AND 7 MORE ROUNDS.AFTERMARKET MAGS ARE CHEAPER AND PARTS PARTS ARE READILY AVAILABLE.

[Destroyer]

I'd recommend a Makarov over one of those crappy Egyption guns any day! If you look around they can be had for the same price. Plus, Makarov mags run ~$5 and holsters the same. Not only that, but the Mak is a lot lighter too.

You can also find better knives for less than the cost of an M9 bayonet. The Cold Steel Recon Tanto and Marine Corp. Ka-Bar come to mind.

May not need suspenders. I don't have suspenders for my E.G. web-gear and don't have a problem with the weight. Have got two mag pouches (for a total of 8 AK mags), the Makarov on there, and my Ka-Bar. That shouldn't be much less than what he's planning on carrying... Just a thought.

[LAgunman2K-3]

i wonder how you guys came to getting a helwan, i hear they are good, but ive never seen one for sale --unless you have a source?
might want to get a more popular gun, it would be easier getting spare parts

i would 2nd the makarov as a good belt/hideout gun, and cheap holsters at 5-10 bucks

the SKS is a good way to go, and so is the chest pouch, i think the chest pouch is set up for 5 rnd stripper clips and not the tens or am i wrong here?

there is a EG raindrop belt pouch that will hold the stripper clips also (i think its for grenades), you could also use a AK mag pouch and cut out the divider and load it full of stripper clips and on your belt --5 bucks

alice butt pack is good to go, but maybe also add a regular school backpack for about 30 bucks for extra gear, and its easy to ditch
it doesnt hurt to use the H-suspenders with the web belt, and im sure the SKS chest pouch and back pack will fit over this easily and relatively comfortable OR if you are creative you could attach these things to the suspenders

cold steel has knives that are 2nd's, cosmetic blemishes only, and are guarnteed by the company, and are cheaper in price OR a good kabar maybe a ontario spec plus knife --30 dollar range

helwan should fit beretta holsters

i would get the pur water filter over the tablets, cost is big- $40-60 and UP for one, but they will take up more room, so keep some tablets for back up

fire starting --lighter fluid and a good flint sparker set works well, there is also some fire gel stuff in a toothpaste tube, add in matches and think about other ways to start fire without matches and fluid
using sticks and signal/shaving mirror to reflect the suns light or small magnafying glass
also have to figure out the climate you will be in when getting a tent/poncho and shelter --mild weather this set up should be fine, anything colder than 50 degrees and better get something warmer

when it comes to boots i would say go with the all leather ones, and not the hot climate nylon ones unless they have a thicker lining to support your ankles better

i dont like the GI Surplus boots, ive had a couple pairs of these (all leather and nylon ) and they didnt hold up as well, the soles are crappy IMO, the best soles are Vibram
ive had 2 pairs of corcoron field 2 boots at about $100, and with the addition of padding i like these boots a lot (first pair lasted 3 years) still on 2nd pair (2 years in)

ive also added some danner boots that i wear daily (danner makes the best boots) but you will pay no less than 150 and easily over 200 for these (unless you got lucky like i did and got them cheaper) expect to pay at least 100 on decent boots, i would probably stay away from the hi tec boots (foreign sneakers, not rugged, but comfy i heard)
dont want to go toooo cheap when it comes to gear, especially your boots (spend extra here) they will last you a long time and wear them as much as possible to break them in if need be

maybe check out some of the food and supplies from the yuppie camping stores, REI and Sportchalet, reveiew some boy scout books on basic survival and equip
and when setting up your equipment i would try to think about what works best for you and be creative when getting stuff together --HTH

let us know what you came up with

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

""How could a man be so tender, yet be capable of such violence?" That, indeed, is the essence of a true warrior."

[LAgunman2K-3]

i would also reccomend getting a swiss army knife with a lot of tools or better yet maybe a leatherman or SOG multi-tool

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

""How could a man be so tender, yet be capable of such violence?" That, indeed, is the essence of a true warrior."

[Ironhandjohn]

Gotta disagree on a few points. I am a large man(6'1"-275lbs) and Hi-Tec boots are a lot more long wearing than you would think. I get 1 year out of a pair of Midnite Hikers. SKS chest pouches hold 2 10 rd strip clips per pocket for a total of 180-200 rds per pouch. For water purification a Sweetwater water filter can't be beat!! They are inexpensive, not cheap, and make the funkiest water taste great.(although you want to look for the cleanest water to start out with.) Iodine pills are not for long-term use, and I don't know if it's good for kids to drink iodine treated water regularly. Hope that helps!!

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It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[WETSU]

I would second the opinion on the Helwan.Avoid it. I used to have one. The metal is soft on both the frame and the slide. It nearly beat itself to death after only 200 rds. I used to have to take a file to it regularly to remove burs from inside. Extra mags are $18. Get a Makarov. They last, ammo is cheap, mags are cheap $5-$8. Holsters are cheap $5.
Another alternative to the Cold Steel knives, check out basic Kabar, or Spec Plus. Don't forget a compass. And a cleaning kit for his weapons, and a baisc first aid kit ass well.

[HDR]

Along with a good small knife?

A means of cutting firewood, limbs to build shelter or deadfall, is a nice addition. 18" military machete works well. Doesn't add much in weight. Plus hard to beat as a "fighting knife.."

Depending on how much firepower one requires? A .22RF pistol is quite nice, ammo is really cheap, the lightest ammo, reliable and less noise.

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Sit-Rep negative

[Ironhandjohn]

U.S. 1 qt. canteen covers will hold 3 mags if you snap both top snaps. They are fairly rattle-free and you can get the mags out quickly if you use 550 cord loops on the floorplates. The best part is that you can get them for a few bucks at the surplus store or flea market. No, it's not a fancy vest or other dedicated AK mag pouch but for the price you can't beat 'em!!

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It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[Azadtodeth]

I use regular M-16 ammo pouches to hold about every thing they'll hold about 8 10 round stripper clips,The makarov is a good choice low maintance you can run the sh*test ammo in it and it'll keep plugging along it'll fit in an US issue 9mm holster just fine and the issue 9mm ammo pouch will hold two makarov clips,hope this helps. If there is a milatary instilation by you check the pawn shops for gear you'll be suprized what GI's will pawn and for how cheap you can get it.

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"I have become death destroyer of worlds."

[XOX]

Thanks for all your help everyone. You all have some great ideas and useful info. I just thought I would let you guys know I got a MAK-90 for $250.00!!! (worth of trade goods) I plan on letting him buy it from me for that, after I have played with it.

XOX

[Pete]

If you can afford $200 (plus ffl charges) for a pistol I'd buy the ARCUS 94. It's a very nice 9mm clone of the Browning Hi-power, well made and good accuracy.
CDNN has them right now with a 17 and a 10 rnd magazine (2 mags).

As for using iodine tablets and other chemical water treatments don't waste your money, buy the filters. I read a study on the effectiveness of the various chemical treatments available and they ranged from 'Didn't work at all' to 'didn't work well enough to protect you'. Iodine tablets were real close to 'didn't work at all'.

[This message has been edited by Pete (edited 03-28-2000).]

[Bryant]

BEST SYTEM
I use four East German mag pouches in combination with LC-2 pistol belt and webgear. I simply run two alice clips torwards the bottom of the German mag pouch(that way they are sit up high and do not interfear with running) and sew a loop in the top (small D-ring), I then secure the adjustable H-Straps to the D-rings making the mag pouches part of the H-Harness- so they are adjustable along with the webgear. I have two canteens between the front and back mag pouches on the sides and a gas mask bag and buttpack hooked on the back for extra gear. For the long haul I use an unframed ALICE pack but I keep the bedroll secured between the buttpack and suspenders in case I shed my pack. Best system I have found yet and I can carry 16 mags on my belt comfortably and you can with it- I even have some strippers in two smaller pouches I sewed to the front of the top of straps. Why pay more when you can make your own and custom fit it.

[WETSU]

Bryant. Excellent post. I also use E German 4 cell pouches on LCII web to carry both AK mags (6 total+ smoke and gas grenades) or M-16 mags (8 total + smoke and gas). I only carry two pouches. The rest of my belt is taken up with a canteen, buttpack,25 ft of rope, knife, holster, pistol mag pouch (1 HKUSP mag, and a Surefire 6Z), and a first aid pouch. Suspenders hold it up. On the left strap I have my Ranger beads and a carabiner. I can wear my unframed ALICE or an ARVN ruck over the webbing. What I like about your idea is how you modified it. I might try that. I've messed with a lot of tac "systems" including vests, and settled on the E.German pouch arrangement for pure versatility using both types of mags.

[LAgunman2K-3]

sounds like Bryant has similar thoughts to mine on tac equipment --BUILD YOUR OWN, or at least modify the existing US/Foriegn military stuff to work the way you want to

bryant could you post a pic of your gear ? id like to see how this works

i also thought about using 2 EG 4 cell mag pouchs and some how putting them about chest high in front of the person, or at least high up on the belt

thats a lot of mag pouchs, Bryant have you load it up with ammo and gear to see how much it weighs and how moveable it all is ? 16 AK mags + fully loaded = sounds very heavy, without the other gear
and where did you put a pistol holster and xtra mags ?
ive been putting a lot of thought into my system before i even get started, but i know there will be some sewing and additions to it


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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

""How could a man be so tender, yet be capable of such violence?" That, indeed, is the essence of a true warrior."

[Ironhandjohn]

Bryant: 16 mags on your belt?? Phew that makes my hips and shoulders tired just thinkin' about it!! You must be in phenominal shape to lug that much ammo. I like 8 in a vest but a vest doesn't flop around as much as EG mag pouches. I use canteen covers 'cuz I traded my vest to a friend for, well never mind..No flames, just saying that 16 mags must weigh a ton. I do well just to carry my 6 any distance!!

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It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[Bryant]

I usually only carry 8 but I made the system to carry 16 in case. I have humped all day with all 16 loaded plus ruck and it was tiresome. I have my pistol on a leg holster that way it does not interfear with the LC2 belt and mag pouches with canteens, my knife is on the others side to balance it out. The problem with the German mag pouches is they sit to damn low so I modified the system so they sit higher, just move the alice clips to the bottom and put a D-Ring on the top and mount the adjustable straps to the D-Rings. I don't carry alot of stuff in the field. My ruck only has the essentials, you must learn to survive not flourish. You probably don't need half the crap most people have in their ruck and most of all everything you need should be on you- not the ruck, the ruck is only to carry extra pants and socks and maybe a small tarp. Total weight in mags is around 35 pounds for all 16 mags, plus 30 pounds for extra gear. I pack very light and can shed half the weight just by dropping the extras contained in the Ruck. I keep my small stove in my pants, my magnesium fire starter around my neck, my water purification pills in my pocket, along with surgical kit and compass, my pistol and knife are attached to my pants belt in case I shed the web gear as well. Remember pack light and carry as much as you can in ammo and mags- that is what will save you, not the extra rations, or other crap.

[Bryant]

Oh yah as far as shape I'm in? Well your gear is useless unless you are well off. I lift three days a week and run two days, I also do situps everyday to strengthen my back and stomach- that is how you hump all day with 16 mags, not with Pepsi and Oprah. I got injured two years ago in the Army so I try to strengthen my back all the time- now it is even stronger than it was before the injury.

[Destroyer]

Bryant,
I like your idea of having the pouches sit up higher. Did you just hand-sew the alice clips to the bottom of the pouches or use a different method?
You definatley have given me something to think about...

[Bryant]

I took a sewing awl and (your woman will know what it is) and put two small slits for the top and bottom of each alice clip, ran the back of the alice clip through the slits and left the front exposed. I then sewed each small slit for reinforcement with heavy guage thread. Then I took a D-ring strap and ring off an old gas mask bag and sewed that at the top of the mag pouch, checking to be sure the flap will still open and not be affected. Then I ran my belt through the two alice clips at the bottom and attached the adjustable harness clips to the D-ring at the top of the mag pouch. One thing though- you may want the mag bag to hang below the belt one inch for stability, so it just isn't flopping over. I also sewed two smaller pouches at the top of the H-Straps for my smaller gear- site adjustment tool, extra cleaning kit and patches, and other odds and ends. Remember the idea is to attach the H-Straps to the top of the mag pouch and the belt at the bottom, now you can actually run full tilt with your gear instead of it slamming against your legs as you run.

[AKshooter]

I have owned 3 pairs of Hi-Tek boots over the past 12 years(currently on 3rd pair). I use them HARD! IMO, there are NO better boots for the money.

Now...MY LBE is set up using an 'H' harness, a buttpack, cleaning kit, compass/F/A pouch, F/A kit, combat knife, canteen and (2) Isreali AK magazine pouches. With the mag in my AK, I have (5) 30-round mags for generaling patrolling, woods walking, etc.

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'Happiness is a warm AK!'

[BIGWINR69]

WEAR THOSE BOOTS IN THE WATER FOR A LITTLE WHILE.IT WILL BE LIKE WEARING TWO WET PILLOWS ON YOUR FEET.

[This message has been edited by BIGWINR69 (edited 03-31-2000).]

[JollyRoger]

This is just an opinion from a dirt poor redneck but the best boots i've ever had were Workload workboots from wal mart. They lat me about 3 - 4 years of daily use. I wear em to work, hike, camp, train, everything. they're all i ever wear anymore. And the best part is the price, around 30 bucks. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

[Lorenzo]

Just curious, have any of you guys used or considered using any of those emergency food rations like I have seen advertised in U.S. Cavalry and Shotgun News? They are fairly small bars of some kind of cake-like substance that is fortified with vitamins and minerals, supposedly enough to sustain a person, at least for a while. I had considered incorporating these into my bug-out gear, since they seem to provide more nutritional bang for the buck than MREs (around $50 for 3600 calories worth), not to mention that you could carry more volume of calories in the same amount of space in your ruck. I'm sure that the taste is probably not the greatest, but that would of course not be too high on my priority list in a bug-out situation.
So, does anyone have any opinions on these?

[Ironhandjohn]

The rations I have tried are from Mainstay Emergency. The ads say they taste like a Lorna Doone cookie....right. Soak one in Crisco and that is more accurate. Not something I would want to subsist on for an extended period but it beats starvation anyday!! The only real downside I found is that the bars are not separated well and they crumble easily. Store the left-overs in a Ziploc freezer bag after opening unless you want cookie bar crumbs all over the inside of your ruck. Just my .03

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It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[RPG]

Rations in the rucksack. Go to the grocery store, the fancier ones have incredible selections of stuff that's better than G.I. for a tenth of the price. Buy 'em, you can afford to try them, read the labels. Granola bars, jerkey, instant rice, look around and use your imagination. Go basic or gourmet, your choice.

[Rangeboy511]

Youve gotten alot of good advice here. I suggest you guys check out a gunshow or Shotgun News, as there are some pretty good deals going there when you start looking to buy the things folks have suggested.

[General Forrest]

Originally posted by Bryant:
Oh yah as far as shape I'm in? Well your gear is useless unless you are well off. I lift three days a week and run two days, I also do situps everyday to strengthen my back and stomach- that is how you hump all day with 16 mags, not with Pepsi and Oprah. I got injured two years ago in the Army so I try to strengthen my back all the time- now it is even stronger than it was before the injury.

Why am I replying to a 7 month old post?

Because the point Bryant made here can't be repeated often enough. All the gear in the workd won't do you any good if you can't go the distance with it.

[greentimber]

I asked the people on Glock Talk to help my freind make an informed decision on a centerfire, combat capable, rifle and pistol. On a tight budget. With their advice, we ended up choosing a Helwan 9mm and an SKS (20rd fixed mag).

I don't care how tight my budget was, I'd save up for another month or two, work more overtime, or sell a kidney before I bought a Helwan. Look into Taurus, Ruger, Or Kel-Tec before you buy some junk you will not be satisfied (or safe) with. $200-250 will buy a quality of used handgun.

You are on the right track with the MAK.

[XOX]

BTW, we did end up abandoning the Helwan for lack of quality, parts, and real value to dollar ratio. OTOH we ended up lucking into an Eagle tac-vest, used but in decent condition for $75 to go with the MAK-90 he got from me. Other than that not much has changed and we are still working on this project as their are still several essentials left to cover.

XOX

[Freedom-Fighter]

Buy an $8 hiking backpack from the PX and throw everything inside.

[General Forrest]

Originally posted by greentimber:
I don't care how tight my budget was, I'd save up for another month or two, work more overtime, or sell a kidney before I bought a Helwan. Look into Taurus, Ruger, Or Kel-Tec before you buy some junk you will not be satisfied (or safe) with. $200-250 will buy a quality of used handgun.



Agreed. Don't bet your life on a cheap pistol.