range drills

[Chun Kwong 56]

Does one engage multiple tagets at various distances,with duoble taps to center mass,or high-low, mozambeke style w/aimed fire,or do you spray and pray.

[Tomac]

Do not engage multiple targets unless there's no other option (while you're targeting one the others are targeting you...) Engage singly if you must, hit and run. I can do surprisingly fast double taps with my Mini-14 out to 75 yds using the Army's "quick kill" technique but I cannot duplicate that speed & accuracy with my SLR-95 (yet...) With the SLR-95 I do aimed fire, center of mass. If TSHTF I trust a single aimed 7.62 (and the SLR-95) more than a double .223 & the Mini-14. Aimed fire is more effective than "spray and pray". Just my $.02 worth... Tomac

[Chun Kwong 56]

Hello Tomac, I share your opinion on the subject, I believe in the use of cover whenever possible, tactical lights,sights,ammo conservation and hide preservation;mostly mine. I just wanted to keep this forum going. Why are so many wanting full auto? How would you approach a blind corner indoors,day light?

[Tomac]

Hi, CK-56... My best friend (a cop) has been kind enough to share some of his tactical training with me. Here are some of the things I've picked up:
1) *Never* house-clear by yourself, there are too many good places to be ambushed from, a single person cannot cover them all simultaneously. A 4-5 man team is optimal, but 2 men can do the job if necessary. Preferred weapon is a handgun due to tactical response speed. The point man actually "clears" a room by moving from point to point clearing possible hiding places as he goes (with one hand free to move furniture & obstacles where needed) while his partner watches everywhere else for ambushes and keeps his non-gun hand on his partner's shoulder/vest so the point man can lead him without fear of separation or requiring the cover man to take his eyes away from his job of looking for trouble elsewhere.
2) Clear a blind corner by using the "pie" technique. Stand back from the corner and slowly move sideways keeping the corner as your pivot point as you move (sort of like attaching a string to a nail and then moving the end of the string around the nail where the nail represents the corner and the end of the string represents you). The idea is to be far enough back from the corner so that if a hostile is right at the corner you are too far from the hostile to have your weapon grabbed, plus with your weapon oriented towards the pivot corner it's always aimed at "new territory" as it's uncovered by your movements.
3) If entering into a darkened building from daylight give your eyes time to adjust.(duh!)
4) The human eye is geared to detect movement, many times it's better to remain still in current cover than move and draw attention to yourself.
5) Know the difference between "cover" & "concealment". Cover provides some protection from incoming rounds while concealment doesn't.
Rather than house-clear, I think I'd prefer to nuke the site from orbit... ;-)
I think full auto is fun but not very practical. Few things are harder on a weapon's barrel than full auto fire. Aimed full auto fire (handheld) is nearly impossible with any decent caliber and if TSHTF I can't expect resupply anytime soon. I believe you are more effective physically & psychologically if the hostiles see/hear one of their own drop every time you fire a single shot rather than a spray of bullets that may or may not actually hit their targets. There may well be times when suppressive fire is needed but if so you'd better hope you have buddies backing you up or that you have a clear path out of Dodge...
Comments or criticisms anyone?... Tomac

[Chun Kwong 56]

Tomac, you speak the truth. The idea the civilian p.d.'s going spec-war is a sad indicator of the world ahead. I also enjoy the company of a dog,if you can look into a Newfoundland,then add Shutzhund training.Very sporty for the ducks too. How aout the roads,road blocks, forced stops, rolling blocks that kind of stuff. Keep well and thanks.

[Necron99]

Full auto fire is overrated. The only time it is effective is for suppressive fire and this is best done with a bipod, tripod or vehicle mounted mg. Even then, mg suppressive fire should be in short controlled bursts. The only exception might be countering human wave assaults such as WWI, German Eastern Front WWII, Korean War etc... Suppressive fire is used so that your fellow combatants can move into postions more favorable for elimination of the target. Tomac the advice you give is excellent, a good book on the subject is The Complete Book of Combat Handgunning by Chuck Taylor. His other books on submachine gun, shotgun and rifle use are all must haves for anyone serious about the effective use of firearms. Why do you think the US Armed services have moved to M16 selective fire models with semiauto and three round burst options (no full auto). The reason is the average soldier, in a combat situation goes to full auto, burns through all his ammo in less than a minute and hasn't even bothered to use the sights or even an over the sight aiming technique (such as the Israelis teach), hence hitting nothing and being out of ammo. With a rifle in a high stress situation (eg. he's shooting back) you should go for center of mass shots if given the opportunity. The idea being that your shot will probably not be totally accurate, so center of mass shots have the best chance of still hitting even with significant deviation from what you were going for in the first place. This will greatly increase your chance of hitting him somewhere and any wound you inflict will greatly reduce the threat of return fire and its accuracy. You won't have time for much more anyway. Pistol cartridges lack the sheer devastation and penetration of even intermediate powered rifle rounds and may require more disciplined shot location depending on body armor worn by target, light cover etc..

[Chun Kwong 56]

I like to use metallic gong plates for snap shots, makes a nice sound when hit. I have shot bowling pins with a .45acp at 7-15 yards at my gun club's indoor range,so I can't use my slr-95 on them, anybody out there ever try them will they stand repeated shots from an ak at say 25-50 yards.

[Tomac]

Bowling pins are my favorite targets for pistol or rifle. Can't beat the cost (I get 'em for free from the local bowling alley) and they easily take 1/2 dozen or more shots from my SLR-95 before starting to fall apart.
Tomac

[Zurak-47]

I've shot bowling pins before, but find them unrealistic practice. I have found that a 1 gallon jug of milk is about the size of a human head. They fly farther than pins when shot and can be hit at 200 yrds. They even stay the same size even after 120 rnds.

[ramius]

Here's a trick my compatriots and I use for training... shoot balloons. They're real inexpensive, easy to put up (staple gun), react when shot, and move around in a light breeze. You can put them hi, or low, and you don't need to buy anything more complicated than the balloons themselves. You can hang them from strings... well, you get the idea.

Works like a champ and you're out the cost of ammo and a couple of bucks.

[Destroyer]

ramius,
Great idea! I'm going to try that.

[Chun Kwong 56]

I like the jugs,try hanging them so they swing,ever try paper plates,they are about head sized and you can get a few hundred for a fraction of the price of printed targets.I also use a 5 gal. paint bucket set on a stump with a 1 gal.on top makes a great man sized target.

[Edmund Rowe]

Regarding the original question of single vs "double tap" vs Mozambique:

If it were me, and there are
- multiple bad guys at varying ranges
- I had cover to use close by
- I am worried about accurate return fire if I hang around in one spot too long

I'd pop the closest one with ONE good hit and take cover. Maybe even take cover first. A good hit with a rifle should incapacitate someone. At the very least if you get the first good hit in, the others may be in a "Oh $hit!" state of mind giving you a slight psych advantage.

After taking cover, then pop who you can see trying to only expose myself to one at a time. Note with a rifle there are plenty of dirty tricks to use, like shooting through obstacles,(Doom on you, Bad Guy!) or hit the elbow that dummy is showing around the corner, (Peek-a-boo! I see/shoot you!) etc.

If the bad guys are close enough that taking cover isn't an option, then one each and then come back and see who still needs convincing.

One lone bad guy? Dedicated pair (2 shots/hits fired where intention is to fire 2nd shot/hit immediately after 1st upon getting a good sight picture) to COM (Center of Mass) followed by option for Failure Drill hit to head.

That's what I'd do. YMMV.

Edmund

[Chun Kwong 56]

Thanks for the input Edmund,very sound tactics,but remember shooting through obstacles works both ways,good cover is nice,but more important is effective training ,it is through constant practice that we achieve the edge. It's still raining in N.W.Georgia,about 2 weeks straight,great time to go work out with my rifle.

[khopdog]

If aimed fire in combat was easy everyone would do it. I think a more practical solution is to use the front sight only, put it on target and keep pulling the trigger till the target goes down, then shift to the next target, after all the targets have went down then go back and pick off with aimed fire whoever you missed (they just hit the dirt or took cover) or are wounded and still posing a threat. If you practice it a couple of times you can get where you can hit a man sized target out to 100 meters with this quick fire method. (Start at closer ranges and work your way out) A good aiming point with an AK is the base of center mass because they tend to fire high (my experience). Remember to always engage the target posing the biggest threat first. A enemy with a pistol at 75 meters is less a threat than an enemy at 125 meters with a rifle.

[Ahkaine]

I believe the technique you describe is called point shooting. It does take a lot of practice to develope skill at farther ranges, but close up 10-25 meters, anyone can do it with success. Beyond 50 or 75 meters, I would revert to conventional aimed fire to conserve ammo and increase hit probability.

With point shooring, basically, you're using your front sight ring like the bead on a shotgun (almost a reverse ghostring apparatus). You look over the rear sight, and engage the target in the "ghost ring" of the front sight. The important point to remember is to have the rifle in a normal shooting position with normal check to stock contact so that the shots will go only slightly higher than your sighting plane, rather than drastically higher(as it will if your head is higher than normal). I have my front sight painted with white phosphorescent paint to use this technique at night.

[Tomac]

If memory serves the Army called it the "Quick Kill" technique, using only the front sight to quickly engage short range targets. It was deadly with my mini-14 but requires much more practice with the AK to reach the same level of effectiveness. I installed the Meprolight tritium sights on my AKs for lowlight/nolight situations...
Tomac

[Destroyer]

Tomac,
Yep, it's "quick kill". My dad is always talking about how easy it is with the M-14. (He's not a fan of the M-16, BTW. He hated that rifle!) I think the technique works better with guns that don't have a pistole grip.

[Chun Kwong 56]

Destroyer, the technique you describe works very well with pistols also ,witness the Ashley Expess style sight. This was developed as a quick pointing sight for dangerous game hunters in Africa,also there are many law enforcement and military units that train this way.

[khopdog]

Chun Kwang, I found with handguns front site only shooting is only good at extremely short distances (under 7 yards) maybe with alot of practice you get more range, I don't know. I say one thing, within a 100 meters my front site on my AK on a mansize target is all I need (It might take a few rounds, but hell that is why it holds so many, if you want to shoot one round at time you mines will get a bolt action)

[Chun Kwong 56]

7 yards with a 1911 .45acp is fast action. Did you know that inside of 21 feet is knife range,try this with a friend, get you pistol in your holster (unloaded),have you friend hold a mock knife 21 feet away.At this point see if you can clear leather before he gets you,suprising how fast things happen. As for quick sots at longer ranges the gong plates give me an audible report when hit, making snap shots easier,Thanks

[khopdog]

Chung, Ive have had a little of training and know of some people who have had more advanced training on that 21 foot knife theory and that was the average distance. From experience action is faster than reaction. From the moment you decide to draw your weapon it will not take a trained person very long to get it out, the key is when and how long it takes you to make that decision that you need to get your weapon out. If you react to a threat you will lose or as my instructor said the best you can hope for is a tie, your best defense is to anticipate by looking for danger signs and creating distance and acting decisively when confronted, such as before you even walk into a situation that may be dangerous you go over some quick senarios on if TSHTF and what you will do or where you will go will make you move so much faster than I'll just walk in there and wing it. Sometimes I can draw my weapon and put 2 shots centermass and 1 in the head so fast Id bet my life on it but sometimes it just doesn't come out the holster right so you can train and train and train to minimize that but you never know when it's going to come out fast and when your going to be slow. A good drill is to get a buddy and stand side by side with a metal target in front of each. Have a 3rd person give a command and both draw and take 2 shots simulating wild west gunfight type senario and see who hits first and you'll see you might win most of the time but never all the time.

[Chun Kwong 56]

In Wing Chun ,a form of kung fu,it's a counter rather than a separate block and strike, an immediate response to an assualt. Like any thing else to be proficiant one must practice.

[Lisl Auman]

Wow! Where does one start?

It all depends upon the situation (obviously)

Are you out in the open? Behind cover?
Anyone with you? What is the opposing force's capabilities? What are yours?

Too many variables to not write a book on.

Tomac: Good piece.
1. Sounds good.
2. Another good one. IMHO, using a mirror would be better. The downside is if there's someone on the other side of the wall and sees a mirror, all he has to do is shoot through the wall. Mirror at floor level while prone is the safest bet.
3. LOL.
4. Yes. Also, in dim light (nite), look at about a 45 degree angle away from where you really want to look. Looking directly at something in dark situations is an impediment.
5. Sheet rock won't stop bullets? Darn, I'm taking that movie back. :-)

Tidbits:
1. people checking houses, usually do the perimeter first. And with the majority of the world being right handed, they'll almost always proceed counter clockwise.
2. Be cognitive of how a door opens. People have a tendency to hide on the back side of it. With two people, they'll 'zone' the opening first, then the second will zone the backside.

Full auto is best left for suppressive fire.
That is needed to break contact. Spray and scoot.




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Lisl Auman, political prisoner in the US

[Snakebite]

Regarding house-clearing, what if the tables are turned (so to speak)? What if you're the one hiding in the house? (I'm not talking about shooting at cops here, but about scenarios where the bad guys are the ones doing the house-clearing.) This could also apply to outside urban areas as well. I've heard that most cops/bad guys/whatever turn a corner (regardless of the method they use to do it) with their guns pointed at about chest level. Seems logical. So if you're the one waiting for someone to come around the corner, do you go down on one knee in order to have a better chance of being below his line of fire? For that matter, if you're the one doing the corner-turning, do you do so in a half-squat position for the same reason (to be below the bad guy's line of fire)? Anyone have ideas/comments on this?

[Tomac]

Snakebite, you're right. During our tactical rifle drills my friend (the cop) would quickly see/engage targets about chest/eye level but would sometimes not immediately detect targets that were higher/lower. I've pulled a similar trick on him by standing on a table next to a doorway and when he entered he wouldn't pick up on my feet/legs on the table and I would pop him from above. The idea is not to be where you are expected. Being low works also but not as well (you're expected to be low, perhaps crouching/prone). Regardless, if I were forced to remain in a house while someone else was clearing it I'd hope to h*ll I had a way out...
Tomac

[Chun Kwong 56]

It seems that ninjistsu still applies.The overhead technique works best over entrys,shaded corners. You can scale up narrow corridor walls or perch on door casing.Neat if you can do it,need tall ceilings and lots of rock climbing practice.

[Lisl Auman]

Snakebite,
Don't worry about being taken as advocating shooting cops. This is all about intellectual excercizes. And this, at least for now, is not punishable in this country.
Rounding corners, if one keeps the gun at chest level, they are at a disadvantage. Who's chest one might ask. It's best to round the corner with your gun at about a 45 degree angle. People who have it pointed at chest level when they round the corner usually have their arms extended. This is too stiff, especially when they suddenly encounter a sitting target.

As for the searchee (rather than the searcher), it is best to be where they do not expect to find you. What's the best defense? Not being where the bullets are impacting. And most people choose to hide behind the door area as this will give them the most time. This is why terrorists kick doors open and there's a guy kneeling, gun at the ready, covering the back side first. The other guy is covering the middle and a little to the front side.
And the cover guys are probably down lower, as they should be trained.

If you were the searchee stuck in a room, you could put some similar profiles up in the room. I saw this done on 7 days of the condor. The spook stacked two trash cans on top of another in the middle of the alley. Granted, for hollywood, they sometimes do get a little right.

Someone advocated laying down in the middle of the floor. While this seems good, personally I'd like a little more maneuverability. Kneeling seems the best (for me). Laying down is more of a planned ambush position.

I'd get an extension mirror to round corners. If you squat, what part of you will round the corner before your eyes/gun?

Chun Kwong 56
No offense, but are you serious? I'd find it difficult to do that quietly empty handed. I'd find it difficult to do that with my 'arms'. I'd find it difficult to do anything but fall into their line of fire after I plugged the first few bad guys through the door. You were kidding, right?

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Proverbs 27:7
He who is full loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

[This message has been edited by Lisl Auman (edited 12-27-1999).]

[kopftjaeger]

When doing room clearing do not double tap...Every bad guy in the room gets one and then a follow up shot if he continues to be a threat. This takes lots of practice and a dynamic entry is a must.

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ÜBER ALLES!!

[Chun Kwong 56]

Yes I was kidding. The only place to go is down,I also know gravity works best on old broken tramps like me.