Sidearm Choice

[Dr.Rob]

the SHTF?? While I love my 45's a quality FEG hi-power with 5 pre-ban mags would go with me.

Its stone simple and it rarely jams.

[Drue]

While not a good choice for defense, a .22 would be indespensable in a survival situation. The Ruger Single Six would be among the best choices. Another good choice would be an S&W M34 .22 Kit Gun although I would not buy a new one.

Another way to go would be to use a .22 conversion kit on your defense pistol but these cost as much or more than a good .22 revolver and using it would mean that your defense pistol would be out of service at that time.

If you pick a small .22 with good sights that you can carry in a pocket, you would be ready for edible targets of opportunity and the gun can serve as a backup.

Drue

[HDR]

DrRob you got my curiousity up. So... I weighed some 45 ammo. Both military surplus (Lot WCC 6590. From the 60's??) and some MagTech (made in brazil 230 gr) they are both heavier than an AK round. Damn they are some heavy puppies. They are lighter than L2A2 British radway Green.

Drue, nah not defense, fill the pot. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif As far as defense? Either the AK, the FN or any AW. Depending on where I am. The FN is scoped but the AK is lighter to pack...

IMO even in a SHF scenario foraging will be more the days work than fighting.. I live in a rural area, so it is easier to avoid a fight than urban or suburban.
In a SHTF scenario? I'd plan on avoiding contact at all costs and attempting to break contact if established. Yup, Recon background.

[backblast]

The only good use for a pistol is to get you back to the rifle you never should have put down in the first place!! http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif cya

[BIGWINR69]

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=243170&a=1851541&p=20256401&Sequence=0

feg hi-power 9mm

[HDR]

What is your choice for a survival or SHTF sidearm??
Some times everyone, me included, bases the choice on tactical only..

Ever consider a .22 RF? I have an old Ruger SA (Sn: 1776XX) with both a 22 and a 22 Mag cylinder.
No one can carry all the food they will need, so foraging becomes a necessity.. Small game taken by 7.62 x ?? or 9mmHP or 45ACP or .40 S&W?? Not much left to munch on..
Plus using my reloading scale? One can carry approximate 4 22 mags or an easy 5 .22RF for one AK round.
Opinions??

[WETSU]

My sidearm for SHTF purpose is my HK USP.45 full sized, w/2 extra factory mags filled w/ 200g Corbons. This is not my daily carry piece, just a field sidearm only. I agree that a .22 would be nice for foraging, however, in any SHTF situation, in a rural area, near a population center the area would quickly be hunted clean by refugees. I would supplement my rations with cattails (roots), greens, big fat grubs, mushrooms, fish, frogs, and little birdies and critters that get stuck in my snares or deadfalls. Just my $.02

[HDR]

Seems that the opinion (a good one too) is based on the where one is located..

Anything urban or even close to it? I doubt I would carry anything else but more firepower, ammo, and a small medical kit. Anything else? I try to take it.

If I could and from here that is a would, I'd try to get as far away from the hellholes that cities would become in a heartbeat..

BTW I live in NC. Y'all know just how foolish that guy made the FBI look in our big State Forests.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif!

[LAgunman2K-3]

how did you put that knuckle protector on the fixed blade knife ?
ive seen the WW1 trench knife that is built like that

------------------
and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[Lisl Auman]

HDR has it correct again.
Sidearm? Depends upon the situation/location.
city/urban: hi cap 9mm.
rural: same

Why:
-city/urb: in cities, you TAKE what you need/want. Therefore, firepower is necessary. And a concealable weapon (pistol) is necessary.
-rural: food and e/e. threaded barrel and 3d subsonic rounds. Smaller animals (tree rats, aks squirrels, etc. can easily be trapped, snared) Slightly larger animals can be shot w/the sub 9mm, along w/humans.
And being on the hide, you once again need a concealable weapon.

Caliber:
9mm is a good trade off between power and weight.

pistol:
Glock...indestructible, reliable, and hi-cappable.

Military background types aren't used to carrying pistols unless radio/officers/recon...
But this is a civvie world. There will be no resupply. You cannot call in air/arty. There will be no extraction if things get too heated. You'll have to take it to the end, no matter where or how that occurs. Therefore, a sidearm is necessary for another option.




------------------
Proverbs 27:7
He who is full loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

[Rangeboy511]

Ill take a Glock in .45/9mm/.40. I live in a generally urban area, though there are some forests a short drive away. The pistol would be concealable if I need to hide it, yet it must give me enough rounds and power considering this is a SHTF situation. The Glock is reliable and can hold a good number of rounds. I left out the .357SIG, since I would want to be able to forage, trade, or buy rounds that I can use in my pistol. Where I am, .357SIG is available, but not as much as the other rounds.

[HDR]

Very accurate Lisl.. Along with the inability to call tactair/arty, there will be no resupply Huey before the sun sets.

As a kid, in farm country, I did a lot of shooting, what kind? What I saw.. With what I had kind of shooting.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif
Some of the things I learned? A 25-06 Ackley even with a head shot at 150 ruins a rabbit.. 30-06 or 35 Remington does even better or is that even worse? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif
IF the SHTF? Survival is the only measure of success. Those that eat, live. The more of that small critter that is NOT blown away is more to eat..
Plus unless part of a well trained group and even then I doubt it. Any dicing anyone would do with a line platoon?? Equals you lose.
To me? TSHTF equals avoid contact, period.

[Ironhandjohn]

Mama06 and myself have fallen in love with Sig's P220 in .45ACP!! Fit for the both of us is perfect,and the gun feels solid as a bank vault. Second choice would be a Glock in .40 S&W. Recoil is not a consideration as Mama and I are not bothered by recoil. You should see her handle a 12 gauge pump,rrowwrr! Comments, positive or otherwise, would be appreciated.

------------------
It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[Bolt.Thrower]

H&K USP .45
with a barrel change to .400 Cor-Bon

or minimum, makarov double stack in 9x18.

would prefer a FN49, but.... the pistol is legal, just not the ammo.

[ISC]

I like a stainless .357 as a sidearm because the first round can be loaded with a shotshell for snakes, and the other 5 with hot hollow ponts. A revolver will continue to work when everthing else breaks, and gives excellent performance.

For a subsistace piece I'd like to have a Ruger 22/45 with a scope. Light, accurate, and quiet. I'd keep it in my ruck because its not likely to be needed until you are in a secure area, and you wouldn't want to pull it out unless you were foraging.


------------------
De Oppresso Liber

[HDR]

ISC,
Excellent point! Revolvers are not prone to malfunction. The S/A is probably more reliable than an AK.
As far as stopping power? The .357 is excellent, the .44 Mag is still a brute. IMO the .41 Mag is probably the best mix of stopping power and ease of control for the average shooter.
Good thought, Thanks!
HDR

[brianwins]

I don't know about wheel-guns being ultra reliable. Back when I used to teach handguns, I saw 1 semi-auto that went down for a broken part (1911 with 3-prong barrel bushing, one prong broke off and jammed up the works) and have yet to see a semi-auto that was dirty enough to quit working. Oh, yeah, I did see a Glock that wouldn't work because ALL the luberication had been removed with carb cleaner and the owner didn't oil it.
I have seen 5 revolvers fail. Two went down for having burned powder residue caught under the extractor, jamming up the cylinder. One (S&W) had the crane retaining screw fall off, causing the cylinder and crane to leave the frame while reloading. The forth was a Ruger Security Siw that unscrewed its ejector rod while firing, binding up the cylinder. The fifth was my Ruger GP100. A primer (Blazer) blew out into the firing pin orifice, again preventing the cylinder from moving.
The idea that revolvers are more reliable than semi-autos dosn't hold a lot of water. The tolerences on revolvers are tighter, with fewer places for dirt to go without causing problems.
Any firearm can fail you. Most jams can be prevented or fixed rapidly, but it's not a bad idea to have a completly seperate gun handy for backup.
Sidearm of choice: HK P7M8
BW

[This message has been edited by brianwins (edited 05-14-2000).]

[AR15fan]

Glock 17

[HDR]

brianwins
Good counterpoint... Altho, most of the described failures, extractor, crane, and Security 6 would not effect a S/A. The primer blow out could, in my ill advised youth? I have flattened a primer or two stepping the charge up in hairs, searching for the max load.
To those that do not reload it is a good indicator of time to not shot any more of those..


I will still stick with food in my belly, aka .22RF S/A.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif!

[ISC]

Semiautos can't function with shotshells, and those are great for snakes. In Fl that's a real concern. I prefer auto loaders for just about everything else, but tend to think that a muddy, dirty revolver would function without cleaning better than a semiauto in the same conditions. Hence my choice.
I can't state this for a facth though, I would never want to subject my firearms to that sort of mistreatment, and haven't had to do it out of neccesity like some of our vets have.

------------------
De Oppresso Liber

[WETSU]

ISC, personally I would not take a revolver. I have subjected my firearms to torture testing of my own including my .45 HK USP, Colt Commander, BM shorty, MAK90, AND, a SW model 65 (SS). The revolver was the weak link in frozen conditions, and in sandy conditions. They all made it though the muck, water, and firing/not cleaning test. Just what someone else said, tolerances too tight. When something gets inside it really screws it up. Finger pressure isn't great enough to break it loose, but racking a slide can be. Second, I wouldn't want to have to remove a sideplate in the field!
One another note, semiautos will fire shotshells, but not always cycle the action.


[This message has been edited by WETSU (edited 05-15-2000).]

[ISC]

Well, like I said, I have never subjected my weapons to torture tests, I value them too highly. I always preferred semiautos over revolvers, I'll take your word for the reliability.

I do have this nice berreta that belongs to the state of Florida, I guess I could do a sand and mud test on it and find out for myself. I'll give it a try and post the results.

------------------
De Oppresso Liber

[HDR]

ISC,
Spent my time as a rice paddy raider. From my memory...
Housecats abuse firearms, allow them to get dirty, etc etc. Same with the bunker line commandos, permanent base camp bunker people.
OTOH, Grunts take real good care of their weapons. When a grunt hits a mud puddle? The only thing that comes up somewhat clean is the weapon. In combat that weapon is a grunt's life, it takes care of him & he returns the favor.

In a survival situation I'd take a .22 probably a wheelgun, to eat. As a combatant? semi auto.

Choice?
After that record in all sorts of wars, campaigns, and climates? That 1911A1 still looks good. Been around longer than an AK, not inexpensive, fairly simple and reliable as hell. I have noticed that most the SF guys locally say they'd rather have that 1911A1 of mine other the issued Beretta. Something that I found rather interesting.

[WETSU]

Hi HDR. I like to keep my firearms as spic and span as the next guy, and I aways spend the time cleaning them when I come in. However, I spend a lot of time out in all elements, doing some stuff that most wouldn't. I don't know how to keep my sidearm dry (but accessable) while wading neck deep across a swollen, muddy,polluted, snake-filled river,with my hands full. Rappelling gets a lot of grit kicked up (down?) onto my rifle. In the more northern climes, shooting during a blizzard results in ice crusting on your barrel and action and refreezing. Tough to keep it nice and tidy that way. I'm sure some troopers keep their weapons sqweeky, and their boots, and their shirts, and their hair, and their nails, and their skin ...Some times to get things done I just have to be hard on things. Clothing, equipment, my body,my mind, and my weapons.

No flame intended, just my $.02 on where I'm coming from. You can't pigeon hole everyone.

[pasamson]

How about a 22 conversion kit for a handgun, relatively light weight and works with a gun that is familiar. They are made for 1911s, Glocks, CZ-75s that I know of. Anyone have any experience with them? I have one for a CZ but haven't had a chance to get out with it yet.

[brianwins]

It sounds like we are talking about two different pistols here. A 'full size' pistol for self defense, and a .22 cal weapon for shooting food critters/varmits.
I would still go with autoloaders for both handguns. I'm sold on the reliability of autos vs. revolvers. Also in .22, most the autos I've shot were much lighter than the wheelgun version, which could be important since your're now carrying two guns...
I just not sure about the feasability of the .22 conversion sets. They would be nice for the range, but I'm just not sure about carrying a bunch of fairly small parts around in the field. It's a nice idea to only have one handgun, but I might want a large bore pistol NOW, not later... BW

[This message has been edited by brianwins (edited 05-16-2000).]

[General Ourumov]

I guess it would depend what I'm up against. If the opponent is possibly wearing body armor (NATO troops and law enforcement), I would take my CZ52 in 7.62x25 so it will penetrate the Level II armor. If the opponent will likely not have armor, I'll take my CZ-75, since it is extremely reliable and can hold 15 rounds. Not that the CZ52 isn't reliable, but it only holds 8 rounds. I can use 9mm self-defense ammo in the CZ-75, which is easy to get. MagTech or somebody makes self-defense ammo in 7.62x25, but this may defeat the armour-piercing capabilities.

------------------
Get Paid to Surf (http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=EAX960)

Get Paid to Surf (http://www.getpaid4.com/?genourumov)

Get Paid a lot to Surf (http://www.bepaid.com/user.rhtml?REFID=10440996)

[TankLT]

Definitely .44 MAG. Stops everything that can be stopped with a handgun.

[HAL-9000]

I think you need to carry a hand gun that has at least moderate stopping power, high vol. fire power, easly obtainable ammo, and still be fairly reliable. Right now the only one that kinda fits in is the 9mm, and most likely a common model like a baretta, Taurus, maybe a Glock. I personaly would like to carry a S&W 4" 686. But we're addressing a combat type situation. Also American Darrenger made a small double barreled 410/.45 Colt, this would be a nice little back up for game. Last but not least....a .22 mag using CCI Maxie Mags + V, will give you a small round at 2200 fps......good enough to kill a deer.
later

------------------
"Heres to us and those like us."

[HDR]

Wetsu,
None taken. In fact I meant no diss with the term housecat, poor choice of words. When a person says things they need to qualify where they are coming from. You did, and I really respect your skill, willingness to take things seriously, challenge yourself and your equipment. Personally too old now, but here is the past.. I did recon/lrrp work into places that were quite unfriendly, with names that mean very little today.
So the whole time was in the elements, but never snow or cold.
I've used McGuire rigs, STABO's and what they call zip lining now, but never any serious rapelling like I know you are speaking of.
I still do firmly believe a person is still a leg until he has jumped with a combat load.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif
As far as dirty? Weapons? Seen them so dirty we'd swish them around in water to get the swamp muck out of them..
People so dirty? The dirt under one's arms rolls into little cylinders and works its way under the skin. We never really got dry and could not underwear or weird funguses would grow on a person. Wear boots so long that the soles of one's feet looked like that pad in a jungle boot. Ask the other vets on this bbs, things grew on you out in the boonies.
Leeches. Snakes? What kind? What is called a two step snake?
No flame intended but I've been there, where the other guy did not want us there. But the weapons were our lives. They might have looked nasty and groddy to some inspecting officer.. But they were a hell of a lot cleaner than us.
In combat that weapon is more than your life than anything, choose it well, and keep it better.
Keep the faith.

[Overfiend]

Well WTSHTF I personally want my Romak or the Saiga12; but you do need a good pistol. I live in urban Atlanta. For just such a situation I carry the Ruger p89 9mm. Its very relaible (ive never jammed it 1000+), its inexpensive as far as good pistols go and ive even found a good supply of 32rnd after market mags at $20.00ea. If im running ducking and stealing on my way out of town, and at least dont want want to have to change mags after every couple of shots.

[LAgunman2K-3]

how do you like you saiga 12? what kind of accuracy you getting with 00 and slugs?
any reliability problems when using slugs or different size rounds?
find any good places for cheap mags or accesories?

------------------
and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[Section-8]

There are probably better guns (there always are) but I'd have to go with what I know and what works for me. Ruger P-89 15 round mag.
-----------------------------------------
www.terrorsquad.com (http://www.terrorsquad.com) go there!

[Confucion]

Browning Hi-Power, with silencer and custom-made extended magazine.

[Spetsnaz777]

For a general purpose rifle for ops in rural areas , I'd pack along my FN-FAL Congo carbine or Springfield Armory M1-A Scout rifle , each with seven loaded mags and Trijicon CQB style optics. Both weapons are sufficiently powerful for any type of threat one may encounter in the ''boonies'' (2 legged or otherwise) and still handy enough to carry without too much trouble.

As for a secondary weapon , this is simply a personal choice. For me , that choice is either my CZ-75 loaded with Hydra Shok JHP's or Glock 21 .45 ACP with the same type loadings. Accompanying wach sidearm should be 5 fully loaded mags , along with a cleaning kit for both weapons for emergency cleaning in the field. I'm not going to go into bergens , knives , footwear or the like because pretty much everyone here has their likes - .. Sorry about the long winded post- I believe in being thorough... Till next time!

PRACTICE - PRACTICE- and PRACTICE SOME MORE!!!

[grenadier]

I'll stick with my stainless Beretta 92FS, urban or rural environment-wise. I know it well, and am comfortable and confident with it. It is phenomenally accurate, and the trigger only gets better the more you use it. I'm not worried so much about it being a "mere 9mm", because I can put the rounds right where I want them, and that's what counts.


------------------
This is the AK-47, the preferred weapon of your enemy. It makes a distinctive sound when fired at you...

[Spetsnaz777]

My personal choice for a personal sidearm would be a CZ-75 in 9mm Para or a Glock 21 in .45ACP. Both guns should have at least five hi-cap mags loaded with either Hydra Shok or other JHP ammo. a ''field expediant'' cleaning kit of some sorts should always accompany one when venturing out , as you never know when one may need it. Just my humble opinion....

Spets

[Kobra Kommander]

H&K 357sig Compact. When I run out of ammo I`ll pick up a 40cal barrel off the ground.

[Panzerschreck]

Would go for the P7 series of pistols because speed kills. Prefer the M13 and have had no gun failures in many thousands of rounds. ( Have had a couple failures using M10 mags in an M13, but don't blame the gun for this. )

[timg953x]

Originally posted by HDR:
What is your choice for a survival or SHTF sidearm??
Some times everyone, me included, bases the choice on tactical only..

Ever consider a .22 RF? I have an old Ruger SA (Sn: 1776XX) with both a 22 and a 22 Mag cylinder.
No one can carry all the food they will need, so foraging becomes a necessity.. Small game taken by 7.62 x ?? or 9mmHP or 45ACP or .40 S&W?? Not much left to munch on..
Plus using my reloading scale? One can carry approximate 4 22 mags or an easy 5 .22RF for one AK round. No question, My Lightwieght Colt Commander .45 6 wilson mags in Eagle's
carrier, GI M7 shoulder rig w/2 more mags in a WW1 pouch on the holster cross strap in case web gear has to be ditched.
Opinions??

[HDR]

timg953,
Hehehe, know what you mean, welcome aboard. I like the .22, doesn't weigh much, can carry loads of ammo for it, easy to reduce its noise http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif! and I like to eat regular.
I have a few more modern ones, but the 1911A1s are hard to leave at home for serious social encounters.

grenadier: Stainless is a bit flashy in the sunlight.

[Diesel]

Match US Army equipment...whatever it happens to be. Beretta 92 9mm! With 9mm MGP ammo. (really would prefer the HK USP in 9mm...but.)88888888

[just dont shoot me !]

MY sidearm is a NORINCO M-54 "copy of 1911" in 7.62 x 25 . Did I mention 1500 feet per second ? It will punch holes in good sized trees , and the ammo is cheap .

[just dont shoot me !]

Oh yeah , it has a 9mm barrel also

[TN.Frank Dodge]

I thought this was an AK site? As such I'm shocked that no one picked the AK's little sister, the Makarov. It's light, compact and has good power for it's size. Ammo(9x18) may not be as availible in this country as say 9x19 or .357Mag. but I'll bet in other parts of the world this wouldn't be the case. You can get a Bulgarian Mak. New in the box for $119.xx dealer right now and mags cost alittle over $2 making it one of the "best buys" in the handgun market. I think it's only natural to team up a good AK with a Makarov in the "original" 9x18. Just my opinion. Catch ya' later. TN.Frank

------------------
Liberty or Death!!!

[Heavy Trigger]

The larger the better!

Carrying an extra gun for the only reason of hunting small game is silly IMHO.
If you learn to survive, you'll do fine.
Learn to make snares and traps. If you keep 10-20 traps set at all times and check them twice daily, you'll have plenty to eat. If you get ahead on food, don't place as many traps.

Make sure you don't over hunt any one area. Hunt in zones for a specific amount of time based on how much critter evidence you find. At that time, move to another zone. By the time you get back to the first zone, it'll be replentished by the surviving, reproducing critters.

[General Forrest]

My trusty Ruger P97 in .45 ACP would definitely be on the belt, along with three extra mags.

[Icarus]

Points taken concerning revolvers.BUT!Few things make me feel safer than my S&W MOD 29 44mag 6".Very accurate.Has yet to fail me in the field.And makes a damn fine head spliter if you gotta have one quick.I understand all points stated earlier,and all were valid.I just don't have much confidence in any other pistol...I gotta stop...I'm getting sappy over a pistol.

[OpenSite]

45 ACP Colt CCO.

[WarriorPoet]

For survival/SHTF sidearms:

Henry Survival Rifle:
.22 cal, all parts fit into stock so it's compact and out of the way when not in use. Perfect for varmint/meat hunting and harassing trespassers.

Kimber .45:
Accurate, reliable power for "close encounters."

If by SHTF you mean "combat"....
AK-47 7.62x39 "DUH!" ;-D

[madhater1]

glock 21-with 5 high cap mags/kel-tec p11 back up-9mm/ the wife beretta 92/glock 17 all with high cap mags and a 357 for back up.

[This message has been edited by madhater1 (edited 11-24-2000).]

[Azalin]

A Glock 17 with four 17 rounds mags. The fourth so I could rotate the other three. Glocks are reliable and virtually indestructable. A beretta 92fs would be my second choice.

Wayne

[carlos1066]

personally w/ my cugir sar1 w/ a combat load of 210 rds 7.62x39 and a good 9mm(a browning or hungarian clone comes to mind) for an urban enviroment, and you are about as well armed as you can be w/ out having granades or rpg 7 or some such...we must remmember that as civilians, we are not going in any tactical operations, only to defend ourselves and our immediate area of concern. the only use the hand gun will get is to give you a close quarter weapon while you reload or if the ak malfunctions(very fat chance)

[Kestryll]

Personal survival tools?

Total of 5 weapons.

AR-7 .22lr, small, light, easily stowed.

Ruger MkII semi-auto, see above.

4-inch .357 mag revolver, light, powerful, easy to glean ammo.

Lever action carbine in .357 mag scoped, accurate, powerful enough to evade contact, handle game up to deer-size.

Last weapon, custom built Katana, silent, no ammo, massive trauma, 20 years fighting full speed full power experience.

I only need to carry 2 types of ammo, both light in weight and readily available.
One sling, one backpack and a scabbard to carry all five weapons and ammo.

[ktulu223]

i'd take a .38 derringer and shoot a deer from 300 yards away


------------------
"the best feeling you get when your going out to go shoot is when somebody left an old junk car out there to shoot up"