6 Man Squad... What would you have (Realisticly) ?

[Palexii]

The first man would have an CAR-15, the second an AK-74, the third an MP-40 (i'm partial to them), the fourth an FN-FNC, the fifth a Gewehr 43, and the sixth man would have a G-3.

How bout' you guys?

[backblast]

Too many different kinds of weapons. Good grief, could you imagine trying to feed these? Let alone parts. Need to agree on one or two types and keep it at that. Similar parts, ammo and recognition from one troop to the next. cya

[Blued Market]

2 AR-15s for medium range and for the fadt that the bad guys will probably have them, i.e. abundunce of ammo.

2 AKs, in case the ARs go down, always reliable.

1 .308, preferably a scoped AR-10, or FAL for long range work, and back up iron sights.

#6 would be a floater, probably another AR, or AK, depending on region, etc.

.45 sidearms for all, and at least one guy with a medical background.

[AR15fan]

Assuming by "realisticly" you mean rifles that can be bought and owned by anyone.

My "Squad Leader" and "Medic" would have Collaspable stocked 16" AR's.

I would have two "Machine Gunners" armed with 20" Hbar AR's and Beta Cmags.

1 "designated markman" with a flatop AR and US optics scope.

last man would have Standard 20" AR.

Notice everyone in the squad can use the same mags and ammo http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by AR15fan (edited 05-13-2000).]

[ISC]

5 AKs, point man would have a scoped .308 rifle. All would carry sidearms of their own choice.

If you have time to scavange ammo you will have time to pickup weapons also.

------------------
De Oppresso Liber

[raven]

Probably

1 with a M249 SAW

5 with M-16A2 with M-203 40mm GL's, LAWs, and belted 5.56mm ammo

[HDR]

Go back to my youth..
Organization: standard Vn era SOG, a one-zero, one-one and one-two. One-Zero has absolute call.

Arms:
5 AW's w/ACOG7 style sights nice but not required.
Per man:
20-25 magazines, 8 grenades (6 frag & 2 flash bangs), some toe poppers, 2 claymores, handgun & 2 magazines, choice carry: either CS or WP grenade, CS powder, C4 & cord.

One guy carrying a suppressed .22RF

1 RPD with cut off barrel or a M60.

Additions: those very current and cute 6 Delta night vision toys.

Terrain might replace ACOG with see thru mounted scopes
Climate effects: Warm or cold??

If there are any doubts as far as carrying it? Been there, done that.

[This message has been edited by HDR (edited 05-15-2000).]

[SamK]

1-semi-auto Barrett .50cal (largest man carries it, ammo split between squad)

2-AK-47's

2-AR15's 20in.

1-semi-auto 7.62N(AR10, FAL, G3, with decent scope)

I think that would be a well rounded group, how bout you? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

SamK

[ALAL ENKI]

That's nice Sam.

------------------
The key to immortality, is first living a life worth remembering...
ENKI
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BOTH are totally LEGIT! and can be used together!!

[Jay_S]

Someone mentioned such a group armament scheme idea on another web board. It was something like this (considering a FOUR man fire team rather than six):

1 shotgun
2 ARs/AKs
1 scoped, bolt .308/.30-06
sidearm of choice for each

They reasoned that such a spread would allow for engagements at short, medium and long range, and also allow for food procurment of various sorts as well. For the six-person team, I'd probably just add two more AKs/ARs, and possibly one or two scoped, supressed .22s.

[This message has been edited by Jay_S (edited 05-25-2000).]

[AR15fan]

SAM & Jay,
Thats way to much variety. You should have a max of two different ammo types and thats only if your adding a heavy weapon like a belt fed MG. other than that everyone should have the same ammo and mags.
7.62, 7.62X39mm, 5.56mm, 30-06, doesnt really matter as long as the whole squad is using the same mags and ammo.
I dont buy the seperate calibers for different ranges theory. with the exception of the 7.69x39mm, you can get hits out to and past 600 meters with any of the calibers I mentioned.

[Edmund Rowe]

If I got to choose good men for my 6 man team, and I was team leader, I'd let each man pick what he wanted for the mission/patrol/sweep/whatever we're doing. I'd reserve judgement to say "SOMEBODY has to carry a belt fed support weapon like a SAW or an M-240G" but if I'm not confident in my individuals' ability to use one, I'm much better off leaving each guy use what he's comfortable/confident with.

The common military trend is to mandate what each guy uses. Units in extended combat seem to adapt to what their situation is in spite of the T.O. & E. It makes sense to me: Soldiers know their situation (if they stay alive!) and know what works for them.

I recommend James "Patches" Watson's two books "Point Man" and "Walking Point" where he describes this "I'm carrying what I like best" attitude.

Edmund

[crackho]

I was wondering if anyone was going to
mention a shotgun in the squad.

[SamK]

Well, I figured the .50 would be used for vehicle ambush, the .308 is VERY versitile(subsonic loads) and would take care of anything the .50 was too big for. The AR's and AK's strong points reinforce the each other's weak points, and used correctly, a good combo. I understand the non-interchangeability(is that a word http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif ), but I also don't plan on losing too many mags, and replacement parts/extra ammo is stashed in the bush close by.

This is fun http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

SamK

[raven]

interchangable, lightweight ammo is why I chose that my squad have 5 M-16s and 1 M-249s. Massive firepower is why I wantd the M-16's to each have an M-203 40mm grenade launcher, and for the riflemen to pack a LAW each.

[STLRN]

Raven:
The M203 on a full sized M16A2 is 11.12 lbs minus any ammunitions. Each 203 round is a around half a pound a piece. That is why there is only 1 per fire team, the Team leader normally carries it (Marine Corps at least) his grenadiers vest can be over 10 lbs just with 40mm shells.

[This message has been edited by STLRN (edited 05-15-2000).]

[raven]

Wow, pretty heavy. But when I said "lightweight ammo", I was talking about the .223 round.

40mm shells are 1/2 lb each? Didn't know that. That would cut down on the .223 ammo the riflemen could carry, belted or otherwise. But on the other hand...think of all that firepower of 5 40mm gl's. Maybe they could pack half the standard amount. That would still be 10 rounds per grunt.

[Jay_S]

Another thing to consider is, how much "choice" would you really have in arming your group? Outside of formal military organizations, it would pretty much be "come as you are". In light of that, I agree with Edmund, that each person use that which they are most familiar and most comfortable with. Ammo and mag interchangability is nice (even "ideal"), but such is not always possible, especially in irregular warfare.

Of course, I'm not a soldier, nor do I play one on TV, so this is all my own opinion, with pretty much no real-world experience to back it up with.

[AR15fan]

Jay,
A well thought out citizen militia will have thought this through years before the weapons are ever needed. plenty of time to change over to a single weapons system.

Excuse me, don't mean to interrupt. But alot of you are from AR15.COM.. and about 150 of us have a surprise for the rest of you, that didn't put your emails out. WE ARE BACK but at a different location.

NOW TRY HERE!!!!!!!!!!

The owner of this HAS GIVEN US FULL RIGHTS TO THIS WEBBOARD ++++++++++++ PLUS ++++++++++ We have been using his CHAT for the last 4 months since our AR15.COM's CHAT has been down..
The Chat is a click away on the top of the page!!!!!!!

By the way people, there is a Discussion Forum just like at AR15.COM, it is not a UBB format OH well. So, I am asking you all to come over for a visit and possibly stay there for awhile, IF AR15.COM doesn't come back!!!!



Thank You,

DavidT / DTHOR

Here is the LINK ::

AR15.GUNSNET.NET

[raven]

I was outfitting this squad assuming they're a military one and had access to military equipment.

Assumming civilian equipment, I would go with 4 guys with semi-auto .30 cal AK variants and two .308 semi autos...ideally M1A's with scopes. Plus sidearms.

[Dr.Rob]

Well since we aren't in the army..

six or the SAME rifles, i'd say AK in this case, so we could all share magazines, parts etc.

BUT One rifle would have a long barrel and a hell-fire trigger and drums.. and One shooter's rifle would be scoped, and have specialty ammo. (either that or make him a designated sharpshooter with an M1a)

Makes the most sense to me.

Shotguns are specialized weapons for close up work.. in an 'all around" scenario i'd leave the shotgun behind.

handguns to taste.
everyone should have a radio.


[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited 05-17-2000).]

[ISC]

A few things I disagree with:

Having more than two calibers in a squad operating in the bush is a bad idea. I think a scoped weapon for a sniper could be usefull, but the rifle should be carried in addition to his AW. This worked out well for Marine snipers in Vietnam from the books I've read that were written by several.

Shotguns have no use in the modern battle field. If operations were geared toward an urban environment then my position would have to be reconsidered. I would tend to leave the cities to their inhabitants and get deep in the bush.

As far as letting each man choose what he is comfortable/familiar with, I wouldn't even consider going into combat with anyone I didn't spend enough time training with so that we were familiar/comfortable with each other. If we did that training with each other, the weapons familiarity issue would take care of itself.

A hell fire trigger and drumm magazine are fun at the range, but a noisy waste of ammo in a tactical situation. No offense Dr Rob, but, well if I said what I think about that you would pretty much have to take offense to it.

I too am assuming that all choices are limited to what I could pull out of my gun safe.

------------------
De Oppresso Liber

[Lisl Auman]

What's the mission? General havoc and chaos I presume.
Civvie World I presume.

Me? 6 men?
Divide into 2 each, three man teams.
All ARs have a trijicon reflex, carrying handle setup--NO FLAT TOPS!
Each man have a non-folding knife.
Each man, flashlight w/an additional red lens.
Smoke of you have them.

Armament PER TEAM
3 CARs, 1 per man.
1 each .30 bolt gun per team. (or accuritized semi)
Pistols for the non-snipers

or
2 full length ARs
1 CAR for guy w/bolt action .30 (or accuritized semi)
2 pistols for full length carriers

or
1 full length AR
1 pistol for full length carrier
1 CAR for bolt gun carrier (or accuritized semi)
1 CAR for Shotgunner


Yes, I know there aren't any AKs. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif
Why? With such a small unit:
1. You have to pick and choose your fights, so you'll need to scoot, possibly for long distances at a time. Therefore, weight should be an issue.
2. Your basic load should be increased.
3. Common caliber, 5.56.
4. Common report of caliber.


Oh, I forgot: a popiels pocket fisherman!

------------------
Militant Agnostic:
I don't know and neither do you!

[This message has been edited by Lisl Auman (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Lisl Auman]

Backblast said it.
Great for collecting, but for a team, no. I can't even spell that german stuff. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

HDR:
You forgot the lock washers http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif
Suppressed .22? Can take the boy out of the RT, but not the RT out of the boy (LOL)
On the RPD, that's a belt fed drum?


SamK:
You volunteer to be the largest man!

------------------
Militant Agnostic:
I don't know and neither do you!

[This message has been edited by Lisl Auman (edited 05-24-2000).]

[HDR]

Lisl,
That worked good for us, but we always forgot the lockwashers, but figure the M4 or the SOPMOD isn't much but an enhanced 16. AK hasn't changed either.. Stands to reason that load will still work, nothing innovative about firepower.. Nothing any better to lay an IA in the other teams face.. Only thing modern I want? Some of those PVS 6 deltas.. Very sweet shit,,

Just for those nice quiet chats... Pretty observant on the RT, Lisl...

Yeah pretty good popper too. Cut it off right in front of the gas mechanism, some off the stock, gets some seriously good balance then.

Militant Agnostic http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif!

------------------
Sit-Rep negative

Christian, American, Hetrosexual, VietNam Vet, Pro-Military, Pro Gun and Conservative..
Any questions?

[SamK]

Hey Lisl, at 5'08" 165lbs., I think that automaticaly excludes me(unless I'm leading a squad of crack zombies on a raid of the local crack house http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif ). By the way, any power lifters in So. Cal? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif

SamK

[maelcum]

1 Designatinated Marksman with M21
3 Riflemen with M1A
2 LMG Operators with M60E3

Depending on the op, it might make sense for one or two of the riflemen to instead carry M4/M203. Riflemen would carry claymores and possibly LAWs, depending on what they're ambushing.

[Necron99]

When you say realistically are you referring to weapons that I and my compatriots own right now? In that case..here goes...
Six man squad....
4-soldiers with semiauto AKs in the 7.62x39 round...iron sights. Assorted sidearms 9mm and .45Acp personal preference of individuals...after all pistols are basically long bayonets.
2-soldiers with metric FALs...one with a FALO aka Heavy Barrel w/bipod, iron sights, and the other with a scoped standard issue FAL.
All indiviuals equipped with gas masks and whatever light body armor/helmets they personally possess.
The two soldiers with the FALs would be the fire team similiar to the US WWII infantry setup/tactics using BAR gunners...the tactics would be very similiar...the soldier with the scoped FAL would essentially be a loader and ammo bearer for the FALO and also be able to deliver precision shots at longer distances.

[BIGWINR69]

simplicty...come all these diffrent calibers is going to be a pain in the ass when you are passing around the ammo bucket.
(1)
6 fn-fal's .308 (they did this way in a million diffrent countries,and hell they are cheap!)

one of the fn should have a scope.

hi-power clones in 9mm $225.00
(2)
all ak's and 1 .308 bolt gun w/ scope
9mm hi-powers.

[STLRN]

HDR:
I think you mean PVS-7D, the PVS-6 is a MELIOS eyesafe laser range finder. The PVS-7 is the single tube, double occular NVG.

[This message has been edited by STLRN (edited 05-25-2000).]

[AK-fan]

Hmmm, here is what I would choose.

Split the 6 men in to 2 teams of 3 with good radio communication.

Each team will have
1 guy armed with RPK with 75 round drums
1 guy armed with a scoped M-14
1 guy with an AK

The AK and RPK are pretty much the same so changing parts, mags, ammo between them is no
problem.
The RPK will supply pretty good fire-power, and the AK is good from close to medium range.The 7.62x39 AK's got good penetration, good accuracy for decent ranges, but it's main role is as a short range meatgrinder.The scoped M-14 will be the long range rifle; the M-14's semi-auto action really shines through when compared to a scoped bolt-gun for short range combat. The M-14 is very accurate, reliable and the .308 packs a nice punch.The RPK will come in handy for supressive-fire and does not weigh as much as a belt-fed.

As for side-arms, everyone will have a glock model 17 or 21.

What ya guys think?

-Later

[Packrat]

This sounds (for some of you) like the movei Congo -- every scene they had different weapons. There must have been another hundred bearers carrying ammo that were never seen.

DON'T give your point man anything more than what he absolutely needs. He's not the assault element -- he should be the lightest armed person. He needs stealth, not firepower. Read Martin Russ "The Last Parallel" for an account of Marine patroling late in the Korean War. Russ and 3 others (the survivors of their squad) created a "provisional fire team" to provide point men for patrols and take the patrols "that were too dirty to ask for volunteers". All this to get out of standing guard on the line.

I'd want 4 guys with AKs, six mags plus one in the rifle, one with an RPK and half a dozen drums (30 or 40 rnd mag for carry), one with a scoped M1A (M14) with 4 extra mags. (I'd go with FALs, but I've never had one in my hands that could be counted on to fire a full mag without failing. I may just have bad FAL karma. I'd accept a G3 instead of the M1A if it had comperable accuracy. I'd also accept a Dragunov, because I'm not going to send a squad like this out as a sniper team. 600 - 800 yds would be sufficient.)

------------------
Packrat

[Composition-4]

Alot of you people aren't thinking very smart...

You can't all have different weapons, its not viable in a combat situation.

You need to focus on '1' Weapon system and give members different variations depending on situation.

I will focus on the AR-15\M-16 for my example. (Im personally a AKer)

The point of a 6 man Squad is not to fight a battle alone.

I Guerilla\SHTF Operations, your job is to inflict as much damage on the enemy as possible then withdrawl before heavy weapons can be brought to bear on you.

I am not a big fan of 155mm Artillery Fire or
A-10\F-16 ground attacks.

Not to Mention attack helicopters.

You must beat down the enemy then withdrawl to fight another day.

There is no time to setup weapons larger than a M-60\M-249 is a Hasty Ambush.

6-Man Squad: Add your own sights, its personal Preference.

Ammunition Carried:
5.56mm and 9mm Handgun Ammunition

Point Man - M-4 Carbine
Leader - M-4 Carbine
Grenadier - M-4 Carbine\M203
Sniper(ha!) - M-16 HBAR
SAW Gunner - M249
SAW Loader\Assistant - M-4 Carbine

Reason I picked M-4 in almost all situations is because is reduced weight.

Also it is more compact and lets more ammunition be carried.

My .02 Cents

C-4

[Lisl Auman]

AK-fan
Good weapons w/good penetration.
And all one caliber--sans the m14.
I'd ditch the drums--leave them at the "camp". They rattle too much.

Packrat
Thanks for reminding me--I forgot the camera.
I believe everyone should be approxiately equally armed, relative to firepower. Tough to do a consistent IA w/unequal firepower.
You must have bad FAL karma http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/frown.gif Too bad.

Composition-4
You no likie incoming? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif


------------------
At some point, punishment loses its meaning.
Remember: Leverage only works against those with something to lose...

[Lisl Auman]

AK-fan
Good weapons w/good penetration.
And all one caliber--sans the m14.
I'd ditch the drums--leave them at the "camp". They rattle too much.

Packrat
Thanks for reminding me--I forgot the camera.
I believe everyone should be approxiately equally armed, relative to firepower. Tough to do a consistent IA w/unequal firepower.
You must have bad FAL karma http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/frown.gif Too bad.

Composition-4
You no likie incoming? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif


------------------
At some point, punishment loses its meaning.
Remember: Leverage only works against those with something to lose...

[LAgunman2K-3]

i say go with 1 system, either AKs or ARs (less weight and more ammo than a FAL and HK)
i would probably pick the AR for urban areas and AKs for rural enviroments
--AR packin troops get a SAW
--AK packers get a RPK
--1 guy with a M14 sniper set up or bolt action on his back while carrying a carbine of some type or at least a sidearm
--sidearms would be of personal preference
--add in some grenades or M203 launcher or LAWs rocket or RPG -- distribute the weight between everyone

------------------
and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[This message has been edited by LAgunman2K (edited 06-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LAgunman2K (edited 06-02-2000).]

[Jay_S]

I don't understand why so many people include the M249 SAW and M-203 40mm. I mean, I understand the tactics behind it, but how many of us actually have access to that sort of MILITARY hardware.

Remember, the question was: What would you have, REALISTICALLY. The automatic weapons and grenade launchers might apply to you guys in the military, but the rest of us are stuck in the "real world". Such would probably not be applicable in a real SHTF scenario in which military weapons would become avalible, but I'm working on the assumption that such is not a given for this particular question/scenario.

[Palexii]

Jay_S is right people, limit yourselves to what you really own. Thanks

[STLRN]

Jay and Palexii:
Well, I have access to that type of gear.

[LAgunman2K-3]

for realistic SHTF -- shoot what ya got
--bands of neighorhood people getting together it would be hard to get everyone onto one weapon system or caliber

if everyone had the same training and weapons and gear (not realistic) i would go back to my orginal statement -- 1 weapon system (AR for urban, AK for rural), sidearms would be own choice, hopefully someone with a hunting/sniper rifle for shots out to 600 yards MAX and under, forget about a light machine gun for cover fire unless someone has a AR with illegal lightening link and a couple beta-c 100 rnd drums or a semi auto RPK with a few drums
--pretty much the best you could hope for, unless you starting taking the enemies weapons

------------------
and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[Section-8]

1ST MAN: (me) hungarian or bulgarian AK and Model 700 with leupold 4.5-14 tactical scope (and a shitload of ammo for both)

2ND MAN: AR-15 (probably Bushmaster) (and a shitload of ammo to go with it)

3RD MAN: M1a (shitload of ammo with it)

4TH MAN: (demoman) he basicly just blows up shit. sidarm: Glock 17

5TH MAN: (my sniping buddy) Model 700 4.5-14 Leupold sidearm: Glock 17

6TH MAN: if posible M-60 machinegun

NOTE: first man (me) that is what I have the others bring their own guns


[This message has been edited by Section-8 (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Confucion]

I'm not that much of an expert to be able to quote exact types like some of you, but this is my mix-up:

Alpha-One: Shotgun, probably Remington. Frag and Flash Grenades. Browning Hi-Power

Alpha two: Accuracy International. Hi-power. no grenades, he would carry gps system and advanced medical kit.

Alpha-three: Explosives man. Carries Hi-power and H&K G3, or FN-Fal with folding stock

A-4: Carries secondary explosives and phos grenades. Also has G3 and hi-power

a-5 GPMG or M60, Hi-power

a-6 Lightweight mortar or extra machine gun ammo. G3 rifle, hi-power

May i question also: why 6 not 4, why split into 2*3, why only 6, and can anyone tell me where ive gone wrong? I think the group here is well rounded for infantry only roles, but some milans and stingers wouldnt go amiss. If our SAS can make it into battle with this, im sure your americans can as well.

[LAgunman2K-3]

ok someone said REALISTIC, so you can leave the mortars and other explosives and hi tech weapons at home
for realistic see my 2nd post on this subject, for non-realistic go with my first post on this subject

realisticly -- if TSHTF TODAY, would you have mortars and explosives and $2,000 rifles? NOPE
unrealisticly --then anything goes, let your imagination stretch

i dont understand some of the weapon choices, mostly equipping each team member with a different weapon (1 guy with AR, 1 with AK, 1 with M1A ) is there a reason for this ?
my thinking is to keep the weapon systems the same, share ammo and knowledge of the weapon as well as parts etc, and if possible have a squad machine gun that is based on the individual soldiers weapon (such as AR =SAW, AK =RPK) seems like less confusion
but i would be more open to having a different squad machine gun than differing weapons for each soldier, obviously the sniper rifle would a unique weapon on its own (even then you could get a bull barrel AR or a dragunov AK to match the weapon system your squad uses)

------------------
and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[Section-8]

Yeah I know what was said about realism but I said everybody brings THEIR own personal weapons that they already have. Oh yeah and about my demoman, you can make that stuff. But, that's what you need to have an effective small squad, it has to be heavily armed.
-------------------------------------------
www.terrorsquad.com (http://www.terrorsquad.com) go there!


[This message has been edited by Section-8 (edited 06-05-2000).]

[The_Sabre]

Ummm, you guys have forgotten one importants thing- BODY ARMOR!
Expensive but lifesaving equipment.

Perhaps if the military wore body armor they might not get so many casualties-but god forbid they do this in my lifetime! Then we'd be screwed....
In Popular Science there was a small article
on a new body armor the military is developing-it's lighter than other armors,
with special plates made out of some odd metal, the armor will stop rifle rounds and handgun rounds, but there isn't anyhting to stop the rounds from breaking your ribs, thats the shame of it.
(i know i should've remembered the specifics on the material, etc.)

------------------
"Bows didn't stop us at the Battle of Koom valley."
"Hamish, that was between dwarves and trolls, and you're neither."
I was on the side of bein' paid money to fight.
Best side there is."
Hamish, Truckle-Interesting times by Terry Pratchett

[ISC]

I wouldn't want the extra weight and heat. I'd rather stay mobile and rely on avoiding contact. The same reason I wouldn't wear a helmet (unless I was jumping)

------------------
De Oppresso Liber

[Lisl Auman]

ISC:
Don't jump head first! http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

I agree about the body armor. But in an urban scenario, I'd have the body armor.

------------------
55gr...It's the little things that kill...

[Spetsnaz777]

For me:

3 riflemen would have 5.45x39mm AK74 rifles
Sniper would have Dragunov in 7.62x54R mm
radioman would have AKSU-74 in 5.45x39mm
machinegunner would have a PKM in 7.62x54mmR

sidearms would be the Czech CZ-75 in 9mm Para

[Spetsnaz777]

Go traditional French Foreign Legion:

4 Riflemen armed with FAMAS bullpup rifles
1 machinegunner armed with a FN Minimi
1 sniper armed with a FR-F2 sniper rifle in 7.62x51mm.

each man would also carry a Glock 17 9mm

[Mister Krinkov]

4-Romanian SAR-1s with mags
1-SLR-95 Scoped for accurate fire
1-RPK semi-auto with 40 round mags carried by the firer and squad

[maelcum]

Well, I already posted, but that was based on an optimum situation. In reality, this is my squad:

1 CAR-15 .223
1 Heavy barreled AKS (drum mags, loads of ammo) serves as SAW 7.62x39
1 Mini 14 .223
1 SKS 7.62x39
1 Savage .223 bolt gun, our designated rifleman, who needs to move up to .308 =)
1 Mossberg M500 shotgun (our rear security guy)

The good thing about our squad right now is we're not using five kinds of ammo. Rear security guy will be armed with another SKS soon.

[SuburbanSurvivor]

Based on what I have right now:

1 RPK with drum for myself + Ruger P89 9mm
1 10/22 for the missus + Ruger MK 2 .22 (She's a tiny woman, unenthusiastic about guns!)
1 SKS with 30 rd mags
2 No4MK1 Enfield Riflemen
1 Winchester Model 12 Shotgun man

Not too shabby for stuff I ACTUALLY HAVE. no fantasy guns here.

------------------
I'll NEVER have enough guns or gear. EVER.

[just dont shoot me !]

1 ruger .22 silenced with a night vison and standard scope
1 PSG1
1 mp5 silenced
1 grenadier 30 shells
1 ak-47 full auto
1 ak-47 semi auto with well trained dog

[Ely]

1-ak-47 sar/cobra sight

2-ak-47 maadi

3-sks chi/com

4-sks chi/com

5-12 gauge autoloader /Browning

6-semi auto 30.06 with variable power scope/Remington

All riflemen having at least 500 rds a piece soft point( .06 having 250 rds)
shotgunner having 300 rds of 00 buckshot

Oh yeah, and my mother would have to come along for campfire songs and her great cooking!!

[TN.Frank Dodge]

I think the SEALs have it right. M-4's and M60-E3's would be my choice. You could split it 3 and 3 or 4 M-4's and 2 M60-E3's. I'd also have one or two men carry a shotgun for opening doors(with slugs) or close range stopping power. Now if we're talkin' me arming 5 men and my-self on a budget then it's going to be way different. I'd go with SAR-2's(AK-74's)and Mossberg 590 shotguns with a good 7.62x51mm scoped bolt gun(Savage 110??) for the long range stuff. For handguns I'd go with a Makarov(doesn't cost much and works like a charm.) I'd put an SAR up front with a shotgun next. Then another SAR and the boltgun. And last a shotgun with an SAR reargaurd. That way no matter which way we move the weapons would be in about the same order for the same fire effect on the target. The whole thing would look like this. SAR,SG,SAR,Bolt,SG,SAR. Kinda reminds ya of a football game or something, doesn't it. Catch ya' later. TN.Frank

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Liberty or Death!!!

[General Forrest]

Originally posted by LAgunman2K:
realisticly -- if TSHTF TODAY, would you have mortars and explosives and $2,000 rifles?

i dont understand some of the weapon choices, mostly equipping each team member with a different weapon (1 guy with AR, 1 with AK, 1 with M1A ) is there a reason for this ?
my thinking is to keep the weapon systems the same, share ammo and knowledge of the weapon as well as parts etc, and if possible have a squad machine gun that is based on the individual soldiers weapon (such as AR =SAW, AK =RPK) seems like less confusion
but i would be more open to having a different squad machine gun than differing weapons for each soldier, obviously the sniper rifle would a unique weapon on its own (even then you could get a bull barrel AR or a dragunov AK to match the weapon system your squad uses)




Some good points there.

However, if the SHTF in a few months, I *might* have a $2000 rifle! http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

Aside from that, realistically, everybody' bringing whatver they have, nyet? So... for the best six people I could round up, there'd be an assortment of FALs and AKs. Some of those guys also have Garands and whatnot, but everybody seems to have a Universal Rifle or two. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

If I had choices, though, I'd go with 4 Aks,
a GOOD (DSA or equiv) FAL, and a bolt-action sniper rifle. This gives me FALdude as backup to the sniper, as well as plain ol' firepower.

[Ought Six]

I asked this same question with a 13 man team on General Discussion ('Equiping A Group' thread). My goal in my scenario was to equip such a group as inexpensively as possible. What I came up with (revised for 6 man group):

- (4) Stamped-reciever 7.62x39mm AKs, 2-4mag pouches w/ 30 round mags, 1-30 round mag in weapon, 200 rounds boxed ammo in pack
- (1) Milled reciever 7.62x39mm RPK-40 clone, 4-75 round drum mags in gas mask pouches + 1 in weapon
- (1) 7.62x54R SVD Druganov clone, 10-10 round mags + 1 in weapon, 100-200 rounds boxed ammo in pack
- Makarov 9x18mm w/ two spare mags and fixed-blade utility/combat knife for everyone

This loadout would vary in ammo carried depending on mission. The RPK man can use the squad's extra 30 round mags if necessary. It may be desireable for one of the riflemen to additionally carry a 37mm folding stock launcher in leau of extra 7.62x39mm ammo with OC, smoke and illumination rounds if you can bear the extra cost and he can bear the extra weight. If not, then smoke & OC/CS grenades disributed among the riflemen would be useful. Also, one supressed .22 pistol instead of the Makarov for one team member would be good.

[This message has been edited by Ought Six (edited 09-08-2000).]

[mace]

My six man team would have 2 AKs with 6 mags and an extra hundred on stripers ,4 SKS min of 400 rds.Scope one SKS for more acurate counter fire and let everyone carry the sidearm of their choice.

[NH2112]

My preference would be for everyone to be armed with M1As, but I'd go with AKs or ARs too. Having 6 men will offset the AR15's tendency to jam when dirty, since not all 6 would jam at once. My team would have the discipline to keep them clean, anyway. Whichever rifle we use, there'll always be 1 guy with a 7.62x51 battle rifle, though.

So here's what each rifleman would have (DM will always have M1A, perhaps with 6x42 scope or ACOG/ELCAN):

1 M1A w/20 round mag X 5 men
8 20-round mags in LBE/LBV
3 bandoleers (180 rounds) in butt pack or ruck

OR

1 AR15 w/30 round mag X 5 men
12 30-round mags in LBE/LBV
3 bandoleers (new style for 360 rounds) in butt pack or ruck

OR

1 AK-series w/30 round mag X 5 men
12 30-round mags in LBE/LBV
Basic load in stripper clips in butt pack or ruck


No handguns, an extra canteen or ammo pouch will be a much more practical use of 3 extra pounds hanging off your belt.

[This message has been edited by NH2112 (edited 10-08-2000).]

[raven]

In my first post, I outfitted my squad with military weapons: a saw gunner and the rest with M16/203's. I saw a photo of the SAS in Iraq, and guess what? That's what they were packing! The photo is of about 20 SAS paras and they all have M16's with the 40mm grenade launcher. Saw a few SAWs in the photo too. I was just pleased to see one of the best units in the world agreed with my choice of weapons, and wanted to share that with you all http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif

[hardcorps1775]

pardon my french, but you guys are full of shit! hahaha seriously, i'm assuming, which has a thousand pitfalls of it's own, that you're talking about fighting a dictatorial gov't or a hostile foreign takeover. in either case bands of freedom fighters wandering about the bush with ak's, ar's, fn's, whatevers are going to be ez prey for ir, ti, sat imaging systems and you will be dead before you know what hits you. for me, my battle will be in the streets and buildings of the bua. my 6-man squad will incl young, old, male, female, white, black, handicapped, fat, skinny, rich, poor, smart, stupid, straight, gay, catholic, muslim, jew, whatever. our weapons will be knives, pistols, shotguns, the bomb, garrottes, anything we can get our hands on. the most important weapons my mates will have though are three. a belief in the rights of the individual and everything this country stands for, a willingness to fight on no matter what the odds, and the knowledge that in the end, though we may not be here to see it, we will win. that's what i want for my dream team! (c:

[NH2112]

You're right, I suppose we WILL be easy prey - just like Eric Rudolph and the "Four Corners Militia" were. You always hear of prisoners escaping and the law searching for them with TI-equipped helicopters, but they're rarely if ever found this way. The old Mk 1 Eyeball is much more likely to be what sees you.

[hardcorps1775]

whether it's ti or the mk 1 eyeball, the thing i'm trying to get across is that all these shit hot weapons, supressed mp5's, scoped .300 winmag rifles don't mean shit. anybody running around the boonies is going to be isolated, there will be a news blackout and you'll be killed far from an audience and quietly. jesus, basically what it comes down to is being the fish that swims in the river of the people and when the shit hits the fan, grabbing hold of your enemies belt and fighting close in. i guess those vc aren't as stupid as i thought!

[Azalin]

Fighting close in is a very good ideal. Ether way I would still like to have 6 people who are armed to complement each other and could help me fight. Hiding in the woods and takeing out individual groups would not be such a bad ideal in alot of situations. I beleive in practicing for urben and woodland fighting. I think both could be used very effectivly.

Anyway my 6 man group would have:
- 2 16" barrel AR with collapsable stock
- 4 standard 20" barreled AR's in A2 configuration

Atlease 7 mags each preferably more and Glock 17 or Beretta 92fs pistols for side arms.

In reality my regular group that I practice training with has a AR-15 with a 16" barrel, collapsable stock and M4 handguards and the other guy has one with a 20" standard A2 configuration. There are only two of us. Trying to find others who I feel I can depend on and who have alot of time to train regularly is hard. I have trained with 20 other people before but most of them do not have as much free time as me. Ether way I got a list of people to call and meet up with should the SHTF.

Wayne


[This message has been edited by Azalin (edited 11-25-2000).]

[The_Dude]

I think that the most realistic situation will be that the confrontation will be urban. Are you and your five buddies going to run off and leave the town, women, children, etc. to be dominated and oppressed by the aggressive military forces that must be calculated? Why do you assume that the fight will be in a wooded area, they will fly their supplies and troops right into town, and I am sure the last thing they will want to do is chase six guys around the woods. Perhaps if those six became a problem, but I am sure they would quickly secure a perimeter around whatever city they would like to capture. The best way to avoid this in my opinion is mob rule. There will need to be six men willing to stand up for freedom, and command the respect of the masses. This will gain their support, and keep the fight going even if there were casualties in the six man unit. How would you prepare for casualties out in the woods? It seems rather un-realistic to assume no casualties. I see people on the television fighting military forces with only rocks and sticks, but they still fight, because of their belief and support. Just my two cents...

The Dude

[derStahlhelm]

#1 point man - 12.ga.(moss.500-590 or win defender)
#2 slack - ak
#3tm.leader -ak
#4 saw man-rpk(avail from I/O )
#5 sharp shooter-ak w/pso-1
#6 rear - ak
commonality in weapons important
ak-easy maint, cheap to purchase,cheap ammo
sharp shooter is to detect eliminate leaders
radio operators etc. he is not a sniper
no need for a sniper in 6 man unit
at sniper ranges you should be trying to
avoid contact or setting up an ambush!
http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif
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LIVE FREE OR DIE!

[This message has been edited by howard4256 (edited 12-26-2000).]

[Nihilist]

Funny how only ONE person in this thread mentioned mentioned night vision and suppressors..They are VERY important in warfare. Suppressors are easy to make and are invaluable in quiet/nighttime operations as is Night vision. Night vision scopes and goggles are still legally accessable.
Medical supplies was something else that was mentioned rather infrequently. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/frown.gif

[Azalin]

I personally did not mention medical supplys because I was under the impression that the thread was only interested in what weapons my six man squad would have. Medical supplys and other gear have already been planned out, but there is simply to much to list here. Also I have recently been looking into night vision.

Wayne

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nihilist:
Funny how only ONE person in this thread mentioned mentioned night vision and suppressors..They are VERY important in warfare. Suppressors are easy to make and are invaluable in quiet/nighttime operations as is Night vision. Night vision scopes and goggles are still legally accessable.
Medical supplies was something else that was mentioned rather infrequently. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/frown.gif</font>

[MOUNTAINMAN]

Me,by myself holding down the fort:
I would start out with a Dragonov to kill as many of them as i could before they came any where close , then go to my AKM and my RPK for medium range,(and hope by then that I had my MA DEUCE for personnel carriers or aircraft),and then last have my AK-74S and makarov for close range and roaming assaults. Of coares if I did have help,I'd hope everyone had the same weapon types for logistics sake!

[bob]

Mini guns!
GE-we bring good things to life!

[Crash85]

This is only my personal opinion but i think the squad should have as follows:

-2 M-60s
-2 M16A2 w\M203 grenade launcher
-1 AR-10A4 w\lupold tac. scope
-1 sopmod M4 (for the squad leader)
All should have A h&k USP .45 SOCOM for there side arm. and various other equiptment depending on situation.

Big Flann

[Jay_S]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Crash85:
This is only my personal opinion but i think the squad should have as follows:

-2 M-60s
-2 M16A2 w\M203 grenade launcher
-1 AR-10A4 w\lupold tac. scope
-1 sopmod M4 (for the squad leader)
All should have A h&k USP .45 SOCOM for there side arm. and various other equiptment depending on situation.

Big Flann</font>

Nice to hear you have access to that kind of stuff. Some of us however are stuck in the REAL world of semi-auto civilian weaponry...

[mongo2]

ok here it is the UN's worst nightmare
6 man team ...
every member has a scoped hunting rifle(the same rifle that he carries when he realy kills things in the woods
this would be typicly a 308NATO .
he would also know like the back of his hand every deer trail and local farm in his AO(area of operations)
he will know how to move and hit targets and be able to regress to safe places with out being detected,
in my little town where i live i know of 4 other groups who think along this kind of thinking,
I happen to be a member of a team who prefers to me mounted both horse and ATV call us the 1'st MD VOL CAV, atv's have a range of 40 miles to the gallon and the one i have can move at 40 miles an hour and carry 800 pounds of equipment and still tow a 1000 pound trailer, so carry all the fancy shooting irons you want i would bet on the local with his 1950 enfield and his land to be the most dangerous man on the mountan,
NOW take that and throw in a few very well armed people like your selves who have a certan fettish to hardware like AK's and AR's and now you got something that is really getting scary ever wonder why they cant take us over???

MONGO,
i actualy feel sorry for the first few guys that they will send in , they after all will just be following orders...

[mongo2]

ok here it is the UN's worst nightmare
6 man team ...
every member has a scoped hunting rifle(the same rifle that he carries when he realy kills things in the woods
this would be typicly a 308NATO .
he would also know like the back of his hand every deer trail and local farm in his AO(area of operations)
he will know how to move and hit targets and be able to regress to safe places with out being detected,
in my little town where i live i know of 4 other groups who think along this kind of thinking,
I happen to be a member of a team who prefers to me mounted both horse and ATV call us the 1'st MD VOL CAV, atv's have a range of 40 miles to the gallon and the one i have can move at 40 miles an hour and carry 800 pounds of equipment and still tow a 1000 pound trailer, so carry all the fancy shooting irons you want i would bet on the local with his 1950 enfield and his land to be the most dangerous man on the mountan,
NOW take that and throw in a few very well armed people like your selves who have a certan fettish to hardware like AK's and AR's and now you got something that is really getting scary ever wonder why they cant take us over???

MONGO,
i actualy feel sorry for the first few guys that they will send in , they after all will just be following orders...

[DeerTick]

This wouldn't really be all that hard. I would usr the larger round 7.62 vs 5.56, it saves time in the long run. One .303 sniper, cause if good that's all u really ever need. As for asualt, everyone runs with the ak-47, at least two men with 100 round drums to keep heads down. Everyman would carry the Desert Eagle .50cal as a sidearm, reason being is that the enemy would be too busy dealing with the brown stains in their paints to fight back. seriuos fire power = serious results.
-DeerTick

[Jay_S]

Mongo, DeerTick, I think you guys have hit the nail on the head. IMHO.

[Azalin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jay_S:
Nice to hear you have access to that kind of stuff. Some of us however are stuck in the REAL world of semi-auto civilian weaponry...</font>

You can get semi auto M-60's, I know because I have one. They are really big toys. Now the m-203 are not that useful without rounds for them.

Wayne

[NH2112]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Azalin:
You can get semi auto M-60's, I know because I have one. They are really big toys. Now the m-203 are not that useful without rounds for them.

Wayne

</font>

What advantage would a semi-auto M60 have over a semi-auto rifle weighing 1/3 as much? Give me a 9lb rifle that fires from a closed bolt and doesn't have an ammo belt dangling in the dirt anyday.

[mrak1289x]

I just finished reading a guerilla handbook and it states that you should work in groups of 5 to 6 fighters so you can hit and run and be out of the area FAST. My team would pack light.
Fighter #1. 300 Win Mag sniper rifle. The 50 cals are nice but at 35 to 40 pounds it's not good for guerilla attacks.
Fighter #2 and #3 AK-74s
Fighter #4 and #5 AR-15s
Fighter #6 M1A or FAL
Your group is going to need some frags, but you won't be able to obtain that until you strike your enemy and steel it.
You will also need communications.

[wwwtimmcp]

2 12ga pumps fore and aft 1 m1a1 with anpvs2 and daylight scope mount 1 bolt 308 scoped 2 ak47/ar15 1911 for all yes I bought the nv scope when springfield offered them. this would be for a wooded/jungle area desert area forget the shotguns add more ak47/ar15

[Azalin]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by NH2112:
What advantage would a semi-auto M60 have over a semi-auto rifle weighing 1/3 as much? Give me a 9lb rifle that fires from a closed bolt and doesn't have an ammo belt dangling in the dirt anyday.

</font>

My comment was directed at Jay S. I got the impression from his statement that he did not know about semi auto M60's.

Wayne

[Jay_S]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Azalin:
My comment was directed at Jay S. I got the impression from his statement that he did not know about semi auto M60's.

Wayne</font>

Oh, I know about them but I was assuming the whole setup would be full-auto, which works for our military comrades (or our hard-core hobbyist friends), but is probably out of the question for Joe Blow.

[destroyer46]

For what mission? Here's a well-balanced mix for a patrol-type mission...if it's a close-in takedown, i'd opt for MP5s over the M-4s, and replace the MGs with the M-4s. At least 2 Mp5s would have integral silencers.

Squad Leader: M-4/M203, H&K USP .40 w/
silencer
1st man, rifleman: M-4/M203, H&K USP .40 w/
silencer, (also commo specialist/RTO)
2nd man, rifleman: M-4/M203, H&K USP .40 w/
silencer, (also primary medic)
3rd man, automatic rifleman: Amelli 5.56mm
light machinegun, H&K USP .40
-or, alternately, M60E3 light MG, 7.62mm
4th man, automatic rifleman: Either same as
3rd man, or as medium/long range
interdiction:
either M-14 or M-21 rifles, 7.62m,
or, depending on mission profile, a
.50 caliber rifle
5th man, team engineer: M-4/M203, H&K USP
.40 w/ silencer. Also, various
demolition/explosive equipment, as
mission dictates.
6th man, forward observer: M-14 or M-21
scoped 5.56mm rifle, with spotting
and laser designating equipment,
as well as communications
equipment, as mission dictates.

All personnel carry additional rounds for machineguns/automatic rifles, as well as claymore mines, and light anti-tank weapons, as needed. British-made LAW-80 is a wise choise for a LAAW.

[Jay_S]

http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/mad.gif