Escape & Evade NVG and IR sensors??

[TR]

You are trying to remain undetected in your recon mission. You think that the mission may be compromised.

They have NVG and infra red sensors.

You do not.

They have them on airborne platforms as well.

How do you get out of the area undetected?

[HDR]

Just tried out a pair of the current issue 6 Deltas.
After seeing what they can do on passive or IR?
With a flood lamp lit at the upper corner of the house about 3 feet over and 3 feet higher than the overhead door?
They can see into the garage. Actually see the door into the house, the shelf units, tools hanging on the wall..
No wipe out like a star light.. Plus, and this is no BS, you put a lens on the monocular, then read a map or whatever you need to read.
So I think I would just hide, be still and make like a hole in the night.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif!

[ALAL ENKI]

Get IR yourself. One with a selectable Illuminator. This way you can see their IR without putting a IR beam yourself.
TAPCO is the only place I have found selling afordable Russian made IR (from$150 to $600). Goggles for $589. Rifle scope with selectable IR is $499.
Cheap IR is better then no IR so get it while you have the choice.

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ENKI
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[TR]

HDR,
How well does the IR work during the day? Does it work at all?

The hotter the weather the less useful IR is?

How much earth, overhead portection, ect would it take to stay undetected. I understand that it can see heat through a lot of things that you would think would protect you.

I hear that flash bulbs will destroy NVG. Correct?

[TR]

STLRN,
Yea, I was refering to the IR during day not the NVG.

So, are you saying that if you are being serched for in the woods, or even in a house/urban envioment with FLIR or ground based IF, thermal imaging that you are toast?

Are there any defensive measures or evasion techniques to IR?

[STLRN]

Are you talking IR as in FLIR That works equally well day or night, it detects miniscule heat difference. Tankers often use their thermals as their primary sight because most camouflage can't defeat a FLIR/thermal imager (however they do run into a vehicle target ID problem because at extended distances everything starts to look like a green blob). There are currently a few rifle mounted thermal imagers, but they are pretty heavy and expensive. Litton demonstrated last year a thermal imager that was almost small enough to be mounted into a NVG, but at that time they were experimental and had not been purchased by any end users.

Current manufactured NVG are light amplifiers, on the ground the AN/PVS-7 and 14 (I think the new mods are the Ds) are now being upgraded with 4th generation intensifiers, these don't suffer from "blooming" from street lights and muzzle flash. As far as use in the day, unless you are expecting attack by DEW in the form of blinding lasers there is very little use because the light intensifying nature of their operation. You can use the day light filter cap that comes with the NVG to perform a daylight BZO of sighting devices like the An/PAQ-4 laser aimer, but in most cases NVG stay in their carrying case in daylight.

[STLRN]

Current thermal imagers are difficult to defeat in the open. They can see through rain and limited amount of fog and battlefield smoke (you can anticipate double the expenditure of Hexachlorethane [HC] based munitions in order to degrade thermal imagers. WP/RP based smoke since they super heats the air can “blind” thermals on there establishing volleys, but again almost one and half times as much will be needed over the long haul). In forest and urban environments any natural and man made terrain features can prevent observation. Current systems cannot see through buildings, hills, trees, etc. However, if you rest long enough on an object that doesn’t provide adequate insulation, you will cause a hot spot to form that can be viewed. An example is water and fuel tanks, it is normal to be able to tell how much liquid is in the tank. The metal above the fluid is at a different temperature than the metal in direct contact with the fluid this shows through on FLIR images at shorter ranges. So the best protection is concealment, stay behind solid objects and you will stay out of observation.

[Packrat]

Remember "Predator"? Arnie smeared mud on himself to cool off his IR signature. Lying in a flowing stream would also work. Deserts are brutal, because it cools off at night and you stand out. Tropical swamps and jungles are poor because of the heat held by the moisture. If you can afford it (money and weight), there are very sensitive IR detectors. Lockheed-Martin makes some you wouldn't believe, which is OK, because you can't talk about them, either.

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Packrat

[JA]

I saw a space blanket in SOF. It had desert camo on one side for defeating your eyes and being a space blanket it hid your body heat from thermal imaging devices.

[TR]

Thermal blankets to hide under?? Interesting!

Also, not staying in one place too long while under cover will prevent body heat from being conducted to a surface that can be observed.

Basically, thermal imaging is line of sight and obstructions will mask the target, unless the target stays in one place too long?

Correct?

Thank for the input.

[LAgunman2K-3]

my bro has something called a COOL VEST, you soak it in the bath tub for a few min and its soaks up and holds a lot of water, like a sponge, has some strange round beads inside

well then you put it on, and its pretty heavy but not bad, about 20 lbs fully soaked, and dries out totally

put that on and cut off half your body heat that would be emmitted, they also have a hat or headband thing
i think its like 20-30 bucks, and supposed to keep you cool in hot/desert conditions

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[HAL-9000]

Do you ever watch the Navy Seal training shorts on Discovery? Thermal Imaging makes you stand out like a sore thumb. I remember once, late 70's, during a training exercise at Camp Bullis (Ft. Sam) We flew over a unit in a tactical senario and got a thermal photo, it was amazing. You could see everything! There was a sentry toking on a cigarett and you could see the expression on his face. They had buried an eletrical cable from their generator, and you could follow it all the way back to their command and ops position. That entire unit could have been wiped out with great ease. Look at the films from Desert Storm, we could see everything at night. How can you hide from that, except hide in a hot area where they can't decide who's who, or under ground.
later

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"Heres to us and those like us."

[TR]

Hal-9000,

So how does a mobile light force evade and survive a force that has that technology??

I think Eric Rudolph did somehow. In your opinion are the recomendations above not enough to survive.

Anyone else heard of the thermal blanket as cove against IR?

[Lisl Auman]

HDR has it.
To paraphrase:
1. Get some dirt between you and them.
2. When they come up, take your genuine SOG knife and remove them from the ranks of the living.
3. Take their gear.

Now, you have the new toys. However, the numbers still suck http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

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Militant Agnostic:
I don't know and neither do you!

[HDR]

Shhh Lisl.... Always hold them real close, then tickle their fancy.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif!

Some of the Spec Ops Guys from Bragg let me try a pair. When you flip from passive to IR, only difference in the view is a little red glow that is to let the user know they are on IR.

My shooting experience with them was jumping cans with a 1911A1. Very, very easy with these puppies. Nothing like a starlight's after you pull the trigger, your blind effect.

STLRN is correct, they have ones that mount to weapons.

Best visual I can give is most are familar with a dual floodlight set on the corner of a house. With the floodlights on and the target being the interior door at the rear of the garage, range 150 feet. I could see shapes on the garage shelves, tools hanging up, and various other items could be ID'd by shape.
Using the sights of my AK I'd say two things..
A. target acquired.
B. target in deep shit.

In a tact situation? If the other team has them? Stay out of their way.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Look you guys, IR and night vision is not a death ray. Even if the enemy sees you how is he going to identify you as enemy? Nobody in their right mind is going to open up on somebody 2oo meters away at night for fear of fratting somebody. The "enemy"s hands dont know what the other is doing. The joe snuffy in listening post 4, or the pilot of an Apache has no idea if your a recon patrol or mercinaries. Remember that colors dont show well at night, so identifying uniforms is TOUGH. Acting like a dummy and running away or hiding under a space blanket,(which doesnt work), is like holding up a sign that says "Im the enemy". If you hear a helo at night either keep walking on a different azumith, or stand behind a tree/wall/ect. As for fighting people who are using night vision, its pretty easy to defeat. When you get into contact at night use short burst of white light, firing and contantly moving. Split your forces up to maximise the confusion of wearing NVGs in a gunfight, and you will more than level the playing field. Most soldiers are heavily dependant on their NVG technology, so denying them the use of it with white light leaves them frustrated and confused.

[Confucion]

I've used those 'laser-pens' to take out IR, but i've not tried it on NVG's. Also, commercial fireworks make good launchers for anti-surveillance units like cameras. Homemade explosive instead of gunpowder will rip a camera off a wall no problems, even at a medium-miss range. Does anyone have an idea on how to apply this to psuedo military-criminal operations such as recon on perimeters, penetration of perimeters to carry out recon etc. Thanks