6 Man Team Structure--also question for ISC on this

[Lisl Auman]

Now that we know who will carry what, how about the structure of your stick?

Mine was broken into two teams of 3 each.
ARs for all, with 2 scoped bolt guns (or accuritized semi-s).

Structure:
The team "leaders" will be in the middle and they'll have the bolt guns.
My reasoning is if contact is made and/or if the stick needs to be split off into its two teams, the leaders will be in the overwatch position.
This is necessary as the "leader" needs to know what's going on and direct, but having the bolt gun will also allow them to cherry pick if need be. If not, they can just use their CARs like the other team members.
No matter forwards or backwards (IA drill excluded), the high volume of fire weapons (CARs) will be in front.
If an IA is undertaken, the middle guys (scoped leaders) can use their CARs for this maneuver. This is the the reason they carry them in addition to their bolt guns.

ISC:
In the other thread, you stated you'd put the scoped gun at point. Why?
(no disrespect intended...just a question whose answer maybe I can learn from)



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Militant Agnostic:
I don't know and neither do you!

[ISC]

My thinking behind the scoped rifle on point was kinda off the cuff, it isn't what my unit operates with, and isn't SOP. Here is my reasoning.

1 If the team is on the move and approaches the objective, the scope could e used for recon and is aready placed at the front of the file, in a good location for R&S.

2 If the patrol gets hit, the point man is probably gonna get hit, you lose less firepower in the first seconds of the fight.

3 An accurate long range rifle inreases the tactical possibilities, and you have to put it somewhere.

4 carrying a bolt action rifle tends to make you less trigger happy, and the point man would be more lkely to avoid shooting too soon, decreaseing the chance of losing the element of surprise by giving away position if he thinks he might have been seen.

The more I think about it, the more I think I like the idea of a scoped rifle attatched to the ruck, carried as an additional weapon to a semiauto rifle.

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De Oppresso Liber

[Necron99]

In my six man team consisting of 4-w/AKs and a 2 man FALO squad. Squad leader would be equipped with AK, his job would be to direct the movements and fire of his soldiers nearby and command the FALO squad to suppress targets for the more mobile AK troops. 2nd in command would be the loader/ammo bearer for the FALO, who had the scoped FAL. His job is to take orders from squad leader via handheld radio and hand signals, direct fire, observe results, move FALO at squad leader's command etc... The other four are grunts to take orders. If both leaders are eliminated the squad's already screwed...at that point we've taken 33% or more likely 50%+ casulties. Time to pullout and lick your wounds, or bunker down and fight to the last individual in the case of a being backed into a corner.

[Lisl Auman]

ISC:
The cuff is what kills ya http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

1. Glasses are more handy, better field of vision, etc. Also more weight up front where lighter is better for pathfinding for the rest.

2. Losing less firepower in the initial contact is true, but you also have a lot less firepower to initiate an IA. This not only makes the point a sacrificial person, but there's now a loss of flying steel to use in breaking contact, thus putting the rest of the team in jeopardy.

3. Agreed--just differing in location.

4 The point shouldn't be trigger happy with such a small unit. If so, get a different point man. Any shooting done should be in accordance to the IA drills practised. In an ambush set, he's no longer point.

"The more I think about it, the more I think I like the idea of a scoped rifle attatched to the ruck, carried as an additional weapon to a semiauto rifle."

Agreed.



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At some point, punishment loses it's meaning.
Remember: Leverage only works against those with something to lose...

[Lisl Auman]

Necron99:
2 man squads? Sounds like the era when I was in the service. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

Good setup.



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At some point, punishment loses it's meaning.
Remember: Leverage only works against those with something to lose...

[Ironhandjohn]

James "Patches" Watson spoke fondly of his 12 ga pump "Sweetheart" when he walked point, although he carried whatever he was comfortable with at the time. I see a 12 ga pump or auto as a good weapon for the point man. Lots of flying lead in a very short period of time. The only down-side to this train of thought is having to re-load the tube before the shootin' stops. A side-arm transition would probably be a better idea than trying to refill a shotgun, although if you were carrying a Mossberg 590 you could fix bayonets and CHARGE!!!!

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It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[LAgunman2K-3]

shotguns are good weapons, but lack in fire power, i think ill take a rem 870 or 11-87 with 20-26 inch barrel and a mag tube that goes beyond the muzzle a bit, max out the amount of rounds as possible, a 10 rnd tube would be nice

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

talk is cheap, but bullets are even Cheaper!!!

[HDR]

My 2¢.
I'd avoid a scope on point, target aquisition is slowed, plus unless it is a battle rifle ie. FN/FAL type firepower is way too soft.
Shotguns are good, I love a pump gun, but they are terrain dependent. In dense forests or jungles they are decent, but in more open terrain not as good. The reason one hears about them so much is that they work good with a grunt squad or platoon in jungles (like vietnam or WWII islands) but not that good with a RT.

As far as leadership? I'd stick with the old RT one zero, one one and one two. The one zero has the absolute call. The one one is the assitant team leader.
In my experience, teams never split up. Firepower drops off too much divided. Easier for the lions to break down 3 people as compared to six. I'd rather have the team pack more ammo than extra diversity in fireams. A couple of fire fights really drains the ammo, no resupply.
Yeah you can pick it up from the other guy. But there are usually 2 problems with that.
First they are usually laying close to a bunch of their live, still shooting, friends. Second, if one is laying that close to you? His live, still shooting, friends are also that close to you.
Never seen any one do anything but run after they popped an IA in the other teams face. Why? Only a team, usually facing a numerically superior force.




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Sit-Rep negative

Christian, American, Hetrosexual, VietNam Vet, Pro-Military, Pro Gun and Conservative..
Any questions?

[Lisl Auman]

HDR
>In my experience, teams never split up. >Firepower drops off too much divided.

I agree in a military situation. They can also call in air, etc. And the unit chasing them will likely be larger also.

I chose the two cells because:
1. It's easier to train in the civvie world with three people rather than six--availability, room, etc. Later, these cells could just be combined.
2. I just can't get it out of my head of dropping off a cell alonside the trail, as the squad (at most) persues us. Then, have the non-left slow down, so the persuers can see us. While they're looking ahead, bad news comes at them from the side. Then, we can provide covering fire to allow the delaying cell to retreat and regroup w/us at another position.
If the persuing unit is larger than we thought--and too big to handle-- the ambush cell lets them walk and we 1/2 circle like we're doing a button hook to meet up w/the ambush cell. If the persuit gets too close/hairy, then hopefully the ambush cell can give them some flank fire and both cells can scoot in the confusion.

I guess in the civvie world, I'm counting more on creating confusion amongst the enemy than their professionalism.

(Toe poppers, etc. aren't available to civvies)
This way, if they do see us at a latter point in time, they should be instantly wary of their flanks...just a little something for them to think about.
3. For most action, we'd be one 6 man unit. After attrition, the training of a 3 man unit could still be maintained at 50%.

Agreed scrounging for ammo is only done if your job is done 100%. If not, they don't take kindly to pickers off their dead. That is where the ambushing cell can come in.

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At some point, punishment loses its meaning.
Remember: Leverage only works against those with something to lose...

[This message has been edited by Lisl Auman (edited 06-01-2000).]

[HDR]

Lisl,
Yes split squad training would be easier in a civvie world, but finding recruits would be hard and logistics would be hell.. Plus the intangible bonding that develops as a team and the ability of a seasoned military team to break cherries in OJT would lack. Difficult situation. Food for thought and perhaps another thread, "How does one train a good squad......."

Yes ambushing after an IA is a good idea, depending on the size of the group perusing, because it does take the "edge" of their interest and better? Slows them down. Makes them stop moving quickly to confine you, so you can continue to move quick..

Stay behinds? That is always an option, but situation depending, typically after the IA the counter RECON is on the horn and their support starts converging rapidly.. Any one that is military trained thinks of initiating contact. However, it takes time to break off contact also. You were a Marine, so initiate contact then chew them up, do not let them get away. Correct?
As far as splitting? Just opinion here, but first can 3 inflict the desired level of damage and at what cost? Also remember the ammunition restrictions, not much chance for pickup re-supply after cutting a chunk off the lead squad, of a platoon. Plus as soon as an element counter recon initiates contact? They begin to tighten the net, that is their only game, make one stay still for dissection. Worse? The 3 know your pickup area, IF they would be taken......

Just remember, their dream is to corner you. Never forget that, the first lesson of the sport, never get backed into a corner were one receives a terminal lesson on dealing with superior firepower and numbers with a lack of support.. The back door closes quickly, my friend.

[ISC]

This reminds me of the discussion of the AK with a welded gas port thread. If you did that it would turn a AK into a straight pull bolt action that could be configured with all the evil features because it wouldn't be a semi auto. I think a good new forign parts kit on a Bulgarian reciever with a folding stock and side rail scope would be an excellent tactical sniper rifle at close range.

Since it wouldn't rely on gas pressure to cycle, it could be loaded with .22 sabot bullets or regular M43. It could be carried as a primary weapon or folded and stowed in or lashed to a ruck. It would have ammo interchangability and still provide adequete defensive use if used as a backup weapon in the event of damage or loss to a team members's primary weapon.

I'd love to see one of these built up as a accuracy exercise. I've got a couple of well used kits I've been working on off and on and think that I could make it more accurate than most AKs with alot of special attention. It would be better to do it with a new kit and milled reciever.

I think that breaking small squad into three man fire teams is an excellent idea tactically and administratively for training when schedule conflicts and distance make it hard to train a larger element. It also provides a layer of security to clandestine operations by creating a nuleous of cell leaders who can act as cadre to train those with the right heart but weaker conviction when they come to the decision to start training.

As a plus it gives a junior fireteam leader a leadership oppertunity that is important in any military/paramilitary situation where organized combat was a likelyhood.

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De Oppresso Liber

[Lisl Auman]

HDR:
Yeah, I do seem to have a hard time not attack attack attack...
If I can't attack, I counter attack http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

Your comment on ammo restrictions is quite valid. And the 3 man ambush does seem to offer quite a few possibilities for unwanted entanglements. There I go again, attacking.
Alright already, I'll scoot! http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif


ISC:
That '47 would then be recoil operated rather than bolt or would/could you secure it w/some kind of latch???
I'm lost on making an ak a bolt gun.



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At some point, punishment loses its meaning.
Remember: Leverage only works against those with something to lose...

[ISC]

The AK has a locked breech. When fired the bolt lugs are locked into the trunnion. The gas piston pushes back the bolt carrier which rotates the bolt, unlocking the lugs and allows the residual pressure in the barrel to force back the carrier assembly and cycle the weapon. By eliminating the pressure on the gas piston, the bolt stays locked and the rifle wouldn't cycle until manually operated.

Does that help?

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De Oppresso Liber

[Spetsnaz777]

My choice of armament for a 6 man team would be:
3 riflemen armed with either 5.45x39mm or 7.62x39mm AKM's

1 sniper armed with a 7.62x54R SVD

1 machinegunner armed with either a PKM or RPD

squad leader armed with either a Krinkov or AKMS.

sidearms would be either CZ-75 or Varyag 9x19mm's.

[SpecOps]

For small unit tactics, wut matters most firepower...nothing else, to disengage a enemy or engage an enemy, firepower will leave you options to decide from.

To discuss what is to be carried, it all depends on situation really...i'd definitely have a long range tack driver, and but seriously, i'd make that man carry a MP-5 or something to contribute at all times. The tack-driver of my choice would be semi-auto. Nowadays there are some great ones and the fact that you can more effectively engage multiple targets is worth it. i mean at ranges up too 600m, a match m-14 will perform with more than acceptable reliability.

As for the others, really depends. I am partial to M-4s, for they are really versatile (i.e. 40mm attachment), light, and loads of ammo can be carried. In harsher climates, such as desert or artic conditions a more robust, maybe a AK-74 might be superior.

i mean i could talk about this for ages...but i'm tired so if you guyz want to hear more...egg me on...

Semper Fi Brothers

[Lisl Auman]

SpecOps:
Come on now, fire away...

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I'm Baaaaaack.
Eat My Shorts, HCI!!

[HDR]

Originally posted by SpecOps:
For small unit tactics, wut matters most firepower...nothing else, to disengage a enemy or engage an enemy, firepower will leave you options to decide from.
Semper Fi Brothers

Most of the options people imagining a SFTF scenario will be dealing with, if it becomes a reality???
Will be always being on the short end of the stick when it comes to superior firepower... Unless they are pop some non-combatants for food, water, medicine or silence....

Yes, AK's do not jam. AR's supposedly always jam... But there will be so many AR's shooting??? You'd never guess it.. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif



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Graduate of the University of South VietNam School of Jungle Warfare.
Majored in Combat Arms at the Cambodian Extension Campus.

[SpecOps]

Hmm..HDR...like i said...i don't know what the exact scenario is...is it a bunch of rebels...and class A fighting force? It never hurts to have as much firepower assembled as possible...if your fireteam/squad is facing a platoon, yes you will be outgunned...but you can always put out a amount of firepower disproportionate to your size. That gives you surprise and leaves your options. Make the enemy believe they are fighting a equal or greater force than they originally thought...make them hesitate while they ponder the situation. That is when you make your move...fight or flight. If you have the time...call in some air or arty...make them pay.

Anywayz, any team leader worth his salt would not engage such an enemy, but i do not doubt that sometimes chance engagements will happen. There is no doubt firepower leaves options open...does everyone agree?

As for the debate between AR's and AK's,

HDR Says:

Yes, AK's do not jam. AR's supposedly always jam... But there will be so many AR's shooting??? You'd never guess it..

I love my AK with all my heart, but if i'm goin on LRRP with a six man team, the amount of ammo i can carry is a big issue. And i'm pretty handy with my M-4, and the 40mm will increase the your firepower factor by at least double. You said "supposedly AR's always jam"...hmmm...you don't sound confident...ever fire one. No doubt there are scenarios where i will obviously choose a AK over AR...there are times when i would choose a Benelli over any of those weapons...but it is wut the situation entails. I'm not going to take a Benelli into desert conditions...as well as i wouldn't take a M-240G into urban house clearing.

For example, in a six man team for a forest situation, i'd take these:

1. M-14 Match Rifle w/ scope of choice, MP-5SD. (Point)

2. M-240G w/ ammo distributed

3. M-4 w/ m203 grenade launcher

4. "

5. M-4, (radioman)

6. M-4 (primary loader and ammo bearer for Squad machine gun)

This is taking into consideration weight distribution and of course, beta c-magz for all. That would be my choice for a forest situation. Sidearms would be team choice, but everyone would need the same sidearm, so ammo can be distributed. My personal choice would be a HK .45 Tactical so a if the situation calls for it, a Knight supporessor can be used.

In Contrast, for desert situation or where the weather is not that amicable, here it is:

1. G-3 SG-1, maybe a MP-5/UZI for backup

2. Galil 5.56

3. M-60 E3

4. M-60 E3

5. Galil 5.56

6. G-3 SG-1 w/UZI, MP-5 backup

Okay guyz...Galil is a virtual copy of a AK..so the Galil and Ak-74 are interchangeable. But i'm really a fan of the 5.56 and i haven't had too much experience with the 5.45 so if someone thinks the 5.45 is a better cartridge...just interchange the two weapons. The reason why i chose this is that in the desert...which might be wholly flat land, it would be better to have two sniper weapons to engage enemies with no cover, possibly take out mortar teams that might be setting up in the distance. Secondly, i took out the 40mm grenades because of the sand...grenades would be of minimal use...i'd rather have the firepower of another machine gun than thump guns. I chose the the m-60 e3 for they a bit lighter than the m240g's. G-3's for hard hitting at the extreme distances and because the roller-block system will work reliably everywhere. (I'm not saying the M-14 is no as good, i'm just trying to mix it up for variety)


I'll try and write more later...bye

Semper Fi Brothers

[HDR]

SpecOps,
The scenario was the title of the thread.
The AK's do not jam and AR's do jam was a barb. The point was there would be so much lead flying the 6 men would never realize it.

Have I ever fired an M4?
No, not until quite recently, when I put a few mags thru the SOPMOD. Cute.
I have fired an M16, AK (both russian and chicom variants), SKS, RPD CAR15, M60 (standard issue, modified (feed spring swapped out) and cut down), M40, M79, LAW, RPG2, RPG7 and the biggest and littlest talkers (That is the .50 and a cute suppressed High standard .22RF) all more than more than a few times. Even M16's with the grenade launcher.
I also know that the C ration can of choice for the Feed side of a M60 is the ham and limas. Only a fool would use beans and wienies, based on taste of course, not function.

Used most of them in combat never had a lick of trouble with either.

In fact if you are or have ever had any thing to do with SpecOps? I guess I am your history, I was SF/SOG 2 years Rep VietNam.
If you are active or recently left the SpecOps from Bragg? My neighbors would know you or be known to you, as trainers or SF/SOG command types.

As far as the average Vietnam era LRRP team, each units TO&E varied, usually carried M16's. SOG carried a heavier load. How do I know what some LRRP's did? Every once in a while we shared hooches with the 25TH Inf Divisions LRRP Teams at Tay Ninh Base camp.


Organization: standard Vn era SOG, a one-zero, one-one and one-two. One-Zero has absolute call.
Arms:
5 AW's
Per man:
20-25 magazines, 8 grenades (6 frag & 2 flash bangs), some toe poppers, 2 claymores, handgun & 2 extra magazines, choice carry: either CS or WP grenade, CS powder, C4 & cord.

One guy carrying a suppressed .22RF

1 RPD with cut off barrel or a M60.

Additions: those very current and cute SOG Delta night vision toys.

If required I can also list the miscellaneous stuff, like radio gear, knives, machetes, hammocks..

That is about the load a man can carry in the heat without ending up with hypothermia and a needle jammed in him to replace fluids.

BTW--Beings you as me if I ever shot a real live army gun, I gave you a straight answer, no flames etc..

Have you ever served in Combat? With who,0 when, and how long? Active duty? What was your MOS? Have a CIB?

By the way, the tag line is my miltary resume. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif.



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Graduate of the University of South VietNam School of Jungle Warfare.
Majored in Combat Arms at the Cambodian Extension Campus.

[SpecOps]

Sorry...didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, just that your sentence left alot to inference and that is what i inferred. If you really knew what was goin on, you shouldn't have used "supposedly" in your sentence.

I'm glad you listed your accolades in the area of weapons experience and i'm pretty sure in your time at SF/SOG you were pretty badass in your time, and oh, i'm not a big fan of lima beans.

Weapons and Tactics have always been a hobby of mine ever since i have been little and i think i've gotten a good store of knowledge, but i never have claimed expertise. I do believe this a open forum where one can laydown his or her preferences in weapons.

I have many friends in the Marine Corp, in fact, my brother in law is a Scout Sniper out of Pendleton. I've shot my fair share of different weapons and i have good experience with a wide variety.

Oh yeah, I am depped in to go to the marine corp next year, where the real soldiers are made. My MOS will be FAO, which will entail a lot of small unit training, and i will go to training as soon as i graduate from my university next year.

To tell you honestly, i've never met a SF member that had so much to say to prove himself. I mean to get all defensive is not your guyz style...is it? Yeah, my name says SpecOps, but what is in a name, thats just my handle when i play Counter-Strike. Your byline is very interesting too, but i would lose it, makes you sound phony.

Laterz

Semper Fi Brothers

[HDR]

Supposedly: adverb 1 a : PRETENDED; 2 a : held as an opinion : BELIEVED; also : mistakenly believed : IMAGINED
Odd, you know the meaning of accolades but not supposedly. Doesn't matter. By supposedly I meant that the supposed opinions held by many are about the M16 are the early versions. The late ones? I never had any trouble.

Might still be a fair badass, never know until you meet a person. That is a normal mistake of youth and unexperienced civilians. They always figure they know the target. Marines will teach you better.

Yes it is an open forum where any one can laydown their preference to anything and be applauded or critized for it. No need to be defensive about it.

Congratulations on the Corps. It is good to see decent young people heading out into the military. I wish you luck.

Where real soldiers are made? A real soldier is some one that has fought the enemy. Not joined any branch of the service, but that is youth speaking. You are just miffed some cuz I fscked with you. BTW, if you are lucky you'll get some time at Bragg as a marine in unit training.

Well guess you've met one, not that it matters to me or them. Maybe the ones you met never bothered because you said they weren't real sodliers?

Yes, I kept my mouth shut for many years until the Major across the street gave me a book called SOG. pay $7 and read it all. At least about the northern AO. But in truth? You might think I've told you something, but I haven't told you squat, just what toys I've shot. Big Deal, the training personnel at the Infrantry AIT tried out more than that.

Just because people have done things you haven't?? Sure don't mean they are full of shit. If I took that attitude I would figure over 99% of the world was full of it. Mainly because I haven't done that much.

The byline? Does it matter? I don't care if it impresses people or not. It is a funny way of telling people that read it something about me. To you it means phoney. To some one who has been there? It might tweak their curiousity, they might just push some to see if it is BS. Then I found a lost brother. Yes I already have, no he doesn't post here. But read the words, you might get what is said.

Glad you are heading into a military tour. Yes, I already knew you had never served or fought anywheres for real, and figured you read a lot about it, but so? It is a BBS, good place to meet people and learn.

[SpecOps]

Yup, i really can't wait until i go into the marine corps. I've read so much about them, i can't wait until i am a part of the premier fighting force of the world.

Don't mean to ride on you, i have the utmost respect for veterans from any branch (you know, there is always the rivalry between our branches)but don't assume i'm young and dumb, in your own words, you haven't met me, and neither have i you. I conceded already that you are what you say you are, but don't assume that you know me in anyway.

You seem to have a lot of interesting war stories, and i am all about first-hand accounts, maybe we can go to the range sometime and grab a beer and steak after, but i want to reevaluate, your first critism of my statement, "firepower is the most important thing" as.......misinformed. If you do still believe my statement as incorrect, other than stealth...what is the most important????

Semper Fi Brothers

[HDR]

SpecOps,
You are correct that superior firepower is one of the most important things. However, based on this scenario, a 6 man team, firepower might be the most superior a 6 man team has ever fielded, but still limited by team size. A 6 man team would be an appetizier for any opposing force they make contact with on the field. Think stealth unless one is regular infrantry.
The IA (short for IAD immediate action deployment) is a small team's best defensive asset, it gives a small unit a means to break contact with a larger one, rapidly! Short form? Slap them hard, turn and run. If a 6 man team can not break contact? They are neutralized.

Agreed on assumed. Anyone can say they were anything they wish, it is easily told tho', but only if one has been there one's self. Personally I ignore them as wannabe assholes. OTOH, my wife gets highly offended by it.
On R&R? Most people one met were not combat arms types. Every since? I have met very few that were not combat arms. But they are more studied than experienced, meaning strong from books, short on did. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif
Hope to chat again.