Best Camo --who has it?

[LAgunman2K-3]

so which country makes the best camo?
which camo is best for each and every different situation?

is the american camo best for woodland areas?
is tiger stripe best for jungle?
what about desert? night? snow? city/urban areas? etc etc

so match up the best camo and what country to each and every situation
and which country has the most interesting/neatest camo? and who has the Worst?

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

[mrak1289x]

I've got Vietnam Tiger Stripes. It's much better than Woodland.

[raven]

I paid attention to camo most when I played paintball. Play paintball alot, and you'll find out.

What I gleaned from paintball is; if you're wearing camo and do not move- you're very nearly invisible. It is MOVEMENT that betrays you. This is why snipers are so deadly.

Hope this helps

[Heavy Metal]

I have found Tiger Stripe to be too dark in the woods. The best all around camo is a set of moderately faded woodland bdu's. Tiger was designed for the jungle witch has a lot of frond-like plants in the understory. Notice Tiger has a frond-like appearance. At a distance, a man waering Tiger looks black. It does however, work fairly well in pines and firs because they tend to be A) Dark green and B)Linearly striped in their branching.

In the Central to Lower Appalachians, most of the forest is Eastern Hardwood (White Oak, Red Oak, Hickory, Maple, Walnut, Sourwood, Basswood, Cottonwood, Cherry and Sycamore with a smattering of various Pines and my beloved Hemlocks with Laurel and Rhododendron in the understory also with some Spruce/Firs at the EXTREME elevations (+4000ft) (this is the crap you learn by filling out 300 habatat assessment sheets a year :p )

In my humbily admitted expert opinion, having been on both sides of the camo equation, woodland is the best all around in this environment, realtree is better if you don't move alot and good ole Olive Green works fine if you don't move much and it is spring/summer/early fall. TigerStripe and heaven forbid, worst of all, BLACK! show up fairly easily as generally they are much darker than their surroundings. What would be the ideal camoflage would be woodland with another shade of brown replacing the green. It would work year round except in heavy snow cover(and they make slip over shit for that occurance). You don't really need green with a good brown pattern cuz in summer the leaf cover is so thick anyway you can't see more than 100 yards tops in even a mature forest and notice that brown dominates at ground level, even in summer. Plus, you can always garnish your LBE and Helmet or Boonie Hat with native flora.

To sum up, at least for Eastern
Hardwood Forest: 1) Not too dark 2) more brown is better provided the patterns are large enough 3) avoid dark colors.

Guys, It's just way too EASY to expiriment with camo. Just get your buds together and go camping where you want to test it and everybody wear a diffrent pattern and try them in the light and in the dark, in the open and in the shadows and you will learn real fast what works and what doesn't. Also try moving fast and moving slow and crawling and walking and see which techniques make you most visible. As stated above and especially hasty movements will give you away with even the most perfectly matched camo. Lets face it, if a clump of leaf litter or a Laurel bush started walking, YOU WOULD PROABALLY NOTICE IT! Unless you were stoned!!!!!!



[This message has been edited by Heavy Metal (edited 11-27-1999).]

[Nemesis]

West German Fleck camo. Too much for mere mortals. German equipment is the envy of the world. Flecktarn used extensively in Russia, France, and Berlin. Take it from who first put a pattern on their battle dress. Try it you'll see. This is the best period. Nuff said.

[Mr. Inbetween]

Wanna know a really quirky one? If you want to be invisible in North Texas- Egyptian Nile Delta pattern. It's like the German fleck stuff, except it's got light green where the German has reddish-brown.

Unfortunately, although pattern is great, the craftsmanship is about as third world as you can get.

[Gary]

There is no best camo. It depends on the foilage in the area in which you operate. You have to adapt it accordingly. And like Raven says, its Movement which attrachs the eye.

[Drue]

Not claiming that these are the best patterns, the ones that I like are the German WWII "Tan & Water,", the US VN "Leaf" pattern, the Rhodesian pattern, and the Portuguese colonial pattern. I like the 6 color, day desert "chocolate chip" pattern too, even if computer models declare that the three color is better in SW Asia.

As long as the colors are somewhat similar to the environment, the exact pattern probably does not matter a great deal. Most are better after fading a little.

If anyone is interested, Trident Military's web site has number of photos of all kinds of camo from all over the world:

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/

Drue

[Heavy Metal]

If ANYONE knows where I can find Jungle Fatigues in the Viet Nam Leaf Pattern, original or reproduction, in new or near new condition, please let me know. I know somebody used to make repros but am not sure of how to find them.

[recon]

Like Heavy Metal said I would like to know also.

[Ironwolf]

I like the tan and water camo too.
I have a heavilly waterproofed zeltban that's
BGS camo(similar to tan and water)on one side and Austrian dot camo on the other that i keep rolled up over my buttpack.
I also have an Austrian dot camo parka that i like alot with a US GI parka liner,it's very warm.
I use standard woodland most seasons but would use a woodland camo (washed)chemsuit for winter wear with gi polypros' under.
It's a very warm and durable setup.
Make sure to waterproof your chemsuit and it will be very nice.
Wolf

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Ironwolf

[LAgunman2K-3]

any thoughts on city/urban camo ? how about blue or slate gray instead of black ? if you HAD to choose a solid color --my thinking is that if TSHTF and say theres riots or UN guys or whatever rolling down main street USA, and you would want some sort of camo to slide in and out of the shadows and alley ways or around buildings --but something that you could wear walking down the street and not look like your wearing camo cuz that would attract some attention
any ideas ?

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

[Lorenzo]

I know a lot of people don't think much of it, but I really like East German "rain" pattern camo. In my opinion, it is a very versatile pattern, blending pretty well in both spring/summer and fall/winter environments. Some other patterns I've tested work really well in summer foliage, but show too much contrast in winter scenarios, where colors are more muted. I've found this to be the case with many conventional woodland type patterns. I also like the Flecktarn pattern, it seems to work well in most environments. When I was in Arizona recently I found that faded Austrian dot camo makes for a decent pattern in desert climates with some sparse foliage.

As far as urban camo patterns, it seems I heard that shades of blues and grays work best.

[JA]

A co-worker has some of the dark/light blue woodland pattern and it works well in the rail yard at night. Urban grey/white is ok after it has been washed a bunch till the white looks dull. Either of these patterns worn around town everyone will think you are a black rapper wanabe. All the videos on BET of rappers that I have seen it is what they wear.

[dadduck]

I was taught, in TACT School, to blend in with your enviornment, make yourself small a target as possible don't blink and don't move anything but your trigger finger. Dadduck

[dadduck]

*FOR HEAVY METAL AND RECON* I trained our current Dept of Public Safety State Armorer when he came out of The Academy and we,when I served, had some leaf pattern U.S. issues-they work well in rural Mississippi. I will ask him if they are still lying around. I also know the man who distributes all the military surplus for the mid-south and I will check him out too. I know our State has some M-60's that are not in use, since I left! But the reason you can't have one is because they would cost you too much to feed and we need to stock up on Wolf for now! Dadduck

[xebec]

I know the survivalist/paramilitary types will disagree out of principle, but a number of well-heeled companies have been developing extremely effective camoflage for the civilian market for years now. Advantage, Realtree, etc., etc. have spent much time and money engineering camoflage for very specific North American environs, and I would not hesitate to venture that these patterns are at least as effective, likely more effective within these specific environs than any military patern. The reason is simple--specialization. Civi camos can be selected with ideal color and pattern combos for any North American environ while military patterns were designed under two very different criterion: 1) Large nations with worldwide military presence (U.S., former USSR, Britain, France, et. al.) designed versatile patterns that could be effective in different environs around the globe (huge compromise at best, and I seriously doubt than any of us non-service types are likely to be deployed overseas anytime soon), 2)Smaller nations (South Africa, Iraq, former Belgian Congo, Luxemborg, on and on ad finitium, ad nauseum) designed camo for their SPECIFIC environ, much like U.S. civilian camo (think of Mossy Oak Breakup as the American woodlands version of Bhotputatswana DF if its easier for the militia types). Sure, military camo from around the world is neat, and I like to collect the stuff as well, but effective in your environ? Probably, but not the MOST effective.

All that having been said, the Human brain distinguishes specific things when sorting out complex visual stimuli. The most noticeable visual "red flag" is movement-- no amount of camoflage will hide movement, only concealment will do. Second is contrast-- the Human eye can sharply distinquish color and light/dark contrast. Bright or reflective colors attract the eye. Thirdly, and most importantly perhaps, the Human mind searches for FAMILIAR PATTERNS, like the shape of the Human head/shoulder construction-- a very familiar pattern that siezes the attention of the Human brain. Expirienced hunters will testify that they most often spot their quarry by identifying the shape of ears, antlers, tail, head/neck, etc. (watch the sequence in 'Platoon' where Charlie Sheen's character spots the NVA soldiers during his first patrol for an excellent depiction of this). This is why it is critical to use ghillie/ foliage to break up the familiar human outlines that will attract attention. No matter what camo pattern you are wearing, you WILL be spotted by an experienced and/or wary soldier if you do not effectively break up your familiar outlines.

For those of you that think I'm pulling this stuff out of my a__, let me assure you I taught this for a living ('82-'86 1st /29th Infantry Training Brigade, Fort Benning, GA. "Follow Me").



[This message has been edited by xebec (edited 11-30-1999).]

[stahlhelm]

Id have to say the German type "flectarn" is probably the best camo out there. When I played paintball people never saw me. But if you want to go back a ways you should look at the original Waffen-SS camo. It was very effective. Wehrmact troops laughed at SS troops for their camo smocks but not long after that landsers (German grunts) were cutting up their zeltbahns (camo shelter halfs) and making their own smocks. I have some SS smocks and they make me damn near invisible.
Ive noticed that there are some companies that are making the WW2 SS patterns for paintball clothing. Tanke a look around for that stuff, I think anyone would be well suited in that stuff.
As a side note, did you know that the current woodland camo patterns was developed in the late 1940's but the Army didnt adopt the patterns because Pathfinders and Engineers wore cammies during the Normandy invasion and were often shot by their own troops who mistook them for SS troops. So the idea sat for years until Vietnam came along and the patterns were put into use. Also the desert camo pattern was developed in the 50's and 60's but was not adopted until the 80's because no one in the Army thought there would be a need for desert camo because we hadnt really fought a true desert environment. Jeez what a lack of foresight on their part.

[hardcorps1775]

Heavy Metal & Recon, if you're talking about the interim Leaf Pattern that came after Tigers and was used by the Marine Corps 'til the Woodland pattern came out, both Brigade Quartermasters and US Cav had nice copies complete with the slant pockets. I think they ran about $80 per set. If you want the pattern as used by the Marine Corps until they were forced to adopt the Army pattern, the only place I know that carries them is Full Metal Jacket @ 1-888/893-7424. Good luck...

[Heavy Metal]

Hardcorps,
I haven't seen them carried by BQ or USC in 8 or 9 years. Could kick myself for not scarfin' a pair then. I am looking for a seto of tops in Small-regular and a set of bottoms in Medium-Short or Small-Regular. I want the slant pocket VietNam(Jungle Fatigue cut )style and not the square pocket late 70's Marine pre-bdu ones. Does this FMJ place have a website?

[celticjedi]

I knwo this might sound weird but for urban areas with the good damn orange lights like in the bay area, the best in my mind would actualy be the black/gray/orange. Of course you still need foilage to help with the cover but jup in a bush and dont move, you wont be seen even if you right under a street light.

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Don't need 911 as long as I got my 991

[hardcorps1775]

Heavy Metal, they're at "www.fullmetaljacket.com" but their site sucks (their comment!). Give them a call at 1-888-893-7424 (toll free) and ask for Dale. Let him know what you're looking for and he can tell you if they have it or can get it. Tell him hardcorps1775 sent you and he might cut you a huss (if he doesn't double the price!;-))

[Jaeger]

For rural PA I like the current German tarnfleck pattern. Faded US woodland camo is pretty good too.

[grenadier]

There are several variants of the Waffen-SS camo, and they will all render you invisible even at close range if you wear enough of it and don't move.
German snipers would use camo nets to construct "ghillie suits" out of local vegetation. Excellent fieldcraft also played a big part in the fact that very few German snipers were ever captured while plying their trade.

[Gonzo]

I'm with Xebec on this one-
Camouflage for hunters has come a long way in recent years! Advantage and Mossy Oak's stuff is very effective, but more importantly, THEY'RE QUIET! The canvass BDU's make noise when you walk as the material rubs together, similar to the noise jeans make. Many of today's hunter clothes are made out of a fleece material and they are extremely quiet. Also, wool pants make NO noise- bow hunters have known this for years. The most impressive achievement (to me) is the 3D cut some companies offer, clothes with a leafy pattern cut into them so that the clothes appear to rustle in a breeze just as the leaves of a bush would. This is very effective in breaking up your outline, or silouette. Search the internet for "camouflage" and take a look at what is offered.
I think modern hunting camo is vastly superior to the military style BDU. The patterns are more effective and they are more stealthy.

[Lucian_blackrose]

I personally have used teh Tiger Stripe pattern for some time. I live in the mid atlantic, MD, and will admit new, out of box it can suck. Wear and wash teh crap out of it for a while, get it to fade some, and it works wonders. Used to do wargame like stuff with a group of friends, and occasionally a friend's boy scout troop (were we called it capture the flag or some other such hiding and seeeking game), and I know if I sat still, or layed up in some brush, no one ever saw me. HEck, if I moved slow enough, no one saw me then either. At night, even newer, unfaded stuff works great, even in urban environs, as most light patterns in the city is streaky, at least imho, ymmv.

Lucian

[shooterAK]

Read 'The Ultimate Sniper', by Maj. Plaster. It has GREAT advice on selecting camo!

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Happiness is a warm AK!

[Tubro]

I like the Swiss Alpenflauge for fall. i live in Arkansas and if you get into the oaks and elms in the fall you can be very well hidden by it. It is also one of the best constructed BDU's I have ever used. it has pockets in pockets and has waterproof knees and elbows. You friends may say "You can hide in the cristmas tree." but it does have its uses.

[LAARS]

THE BEST CAMO IN THE WORLD IS PREDATOR!!!!
This is a camo that is available at your local bowhunting shop. Go to this web page to check it out.It will blow your mind.why no army is using this is the real question.

www.predatorcamo.com/camopatterns.html (http://www.predatorcamo.com/camopatterns.html)

LAARS

[SELECT-FIRE]

No matter what kind of camo you are wearing, you will enhance it by adding or attaching bits and pieces of foliage and or green and brown rag scrap to your clothing. Our worthy opponents in Vietnam, and the Japanese did this to decrease the likelihood of being spotted. However, if you are really intent on not being seen, keep still and keep your finger off the trigger. There is no better way to give away your position than a big bang and a great big muzzle flash.

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They're Coming......

[AR15fan]

For the Semi Desert foothills of southern california i like Khaki or 3 Color Desert. I prefer the durability of the 50/50 NYCO blend BDU's over the cotton ripstop.

[ROUGHNECK]

For your Urban enviorment CAMO, in a WTSHTF scenario.
May I suggest the following deception technique I have successfully employed in some rather tense/hostile areas. To move unobstructed, unmolested, unsearched, and with all my gear and weaponry unnoticed..!

What cammo you say can acheive that.....

I Had a Black wind breaker printed up with BIG letters "CORRONER".

It's amazing what you can carry around in a body bag....and have NO one want to take a peak inside.
Put a pair of Big Blue gloves on too.
Dont forget some red paint smears on gloves.
Keep your head bent down and wear a frown.

And if you want to BLOW through a checkpoint wear a respirator as well.
Refuse to take it off, and keep repeating that you should really be on your way.

If your in Germany print it in GERMAN.

Russia , South Africa, , South America, etc...

Be creative..!

Camouflage means blending in, or standing apart...so as not to be noticed or overlooked, dismissed as harmless, or being in the correct place when you really don't belong.

If you ar caputured and shot as a SPY or infiltrator it should be over rather quickly so don't worry about it.!!! LOL

ROUGHNECK





[This message has been edited by ROUGHNECK (edited 02-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by ROUGHNECK (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Bryant]

3-D Camo, you can get a nice set of woodland pattern in 3-D out of Spoortsman Guide for around $90.00. Or you can just make your own out of burlap strips and mesquito netting for a nice 3-D Poncho, just dye the strips accordingly or buy them that way. Be creative. Also the best camo I have ever seen was actually a blanket for survival, it was in woodland pattern but if wrapped around you could make you invisible to heat sensitive tracking equipment at night, available from Brigade Quartermaster's catalog.

[Jayreb1]

I like the TIGER STRIPE, but the Predator is very impressive!

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The AK is Proof God wants us to be Happy

[HDR]

I'd side with Xebec...
Good hunting camo and putting the burlap on.

[7.62 biff]

amen laars i agree with u 100%. predator is the best all around camo out there. may not look as cool(i know that matters to some people) but give it a try and u will agree that it is the best. think many of the others are right also that not moving will make most camo effective anyway. but if u want the best go for that predator stuff. use it in paintball, hunting, and being opfor for the weekend wariors and it has always excceded my expectations.

[dr_doom4540]

hey guys , i hunt and while trying to get some insight on visual ques animals get from predators and prey i saw a piece on turkey. it seems while being very atuned to movement , varying up camo patterns helps. yes mismatched cammies. depending on the time of the year and terrain. lets say brown pattern trousers with a green pattern smock for early spring and late summer. just think about the environment around you. whether the flora is on the ground and in the trees or just in trees or brown all over? that should help you in deciding what to where. just be observant to your surroundings and stay still until the first or second volley of shots!

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if you are not armed you are a subject

[alexie20]

If you live in the South I'd suggest a product called Palmettoflage! If you know what palmettos are you will understand.. Their website is down right now unfortunately..

[Diesel]

A bit of wisdom from SE Asia...if you are going to be in the shadows go for the camo pattern of your choise but try to get one that has shades of 'purple' instead of black...black reflects, purple absorbes all but the IR light. Good hunting! 88888888

[This message has been edited by Diesel (edited 06-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Diesel (edited 06-25-2000).]

[Ironhandjohn]

REAL Vietnam era Tiger Stripes work very well down here in TN. I have a set of poplin stripes from Tiger Stripe Products out of CO and they are my new favorites. They are very light and comfortable in the sometimes stifling summer humidity here. They are the old 'advisor pattern' rather than the current BDU style, but US Cavalry had them on the clearance rack in my size and I just couldn't say no.

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It's really simple,just follow steering and flow with it. You see, Ironhand's my thing!

[just dont shoot me !]

If you want the best camo in the area copy the local wildlife .