Scout Rifle anyone?

[Sir Hacksalot]

Been doing some thinking about SHTF type scenarios, and got to wondering about having an AK or AR type weapon, and I was thinking why not the "scout" rifle as espoused by Jeff Cooper? A short, bolt action with a long eye relief low power scope, ghost ring sights, bipod, etc.

Think about it, in SHTF, you want to stay low, inconspicuous, and use your weapon ONLY if you have to. With a Scout, you can engage targets close, or far (out to 500 Meters), you have PLENTY of wallop from a 7.62, it is light, handy, and virtually maintenance free.

Yes, you give up ammo capacity, and rapidity of firing, but you are AVOIDING trouble, not on patrol.

Come to think of it, if I slapped a 2.5X leupold Scout scope on my Marlin Guide gun, I would have the ULTIMATE short range (200 yards or less) thumper, which would be just about right for an urban rifle.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this idea?

Sir Hacksalot

[Tomac]

Good points but if TSHTF you can't always count on being able to choose the conditions of engagement (trouble can find you even if you're looking to avoid it). IMHO the closer the threat, the greater the threat and multiple hostiles can't be discounted. My first choice for a STHF rifle is my SLR-95 w/Cobra sight and that's good out to 200+yds. Much beyond that and target identification becomes a problem, best solved with a good scoped rifle. Unfortunately even a low power scope will interfere with close-in target engagement. I don't feel there is a single perfect rifle for all possible scenarios. I would rather have 2 rifles, my SLR for close to medium ranges and a good scoped .308 or such for those situations requiring long distance. However, if I could have only one rifle it would be my SLR. I would rather face a distance target with my SLR than one or more close-in targets with a bolt gun. Just my $.02 worth...
Tomac

[Edmund Rowe]

If avoidance and hit and run are the goals, then scout rifles and most other not-so-heavyweight rifles will work fine as well as the "scout" knows his business.

I was thinking of "Tunnel in the Sky" by Robert Heinlein, where someone describes when their military unit sends someone on a recce, they don't pick some young hotshot, but rather some older hard to kill vet who understands that avoidance is the key. Then said vet is sent unarmed into the area in question, since being unarmed makes you 1000 times as alert with eyes growing out the back of your head.

No, I'm not suggesting we go unarmed, but this alert mindset is a good one.

Edmund

[Chris C]

Scout Rifle = CARBINE M-16

It's light, short, and handy.
I also like the AK family for their
reliability, and my SKS makes a perfect
Scout Rifle, as can be documented by the
Vietnam War.

Cover Thy '6
and have a Happy New Year

[david franklin]

i like my savage 270 its light tight and shoots right gotta nice bushnell and a harris bipod, keeps um in the 10 ring all day long. happy new year!

[Jaeger]

I'm having a scout rifle built from #5 Mk1 Enfield Junge Carbine. Bo Wallace at Ashley Outdoors is doing the work. It should be done next week (finally!!).

Pros; 10 rnd. detatchable box mag.
rear ghost ring battle sight and a click adjustable long range peep sight
short, fast bolt throw (fastest bolt action battle rife ever made)
battle proven action and cartridge. (303 British)
able to be loaded with stripper clips
synthetic stock
3 point sling system
QD LER scope (Leupold M8 Scout Scope)

Cons; Ammo availability of the 303, while very good, is not as common as a 308 (ballistic differences are negligable, especially when handloading)

I am dying to get my hands on this rifle! I figured that the best bolt action battle rifle ever produced should make for one hell of a scout rifle. We'll see shortly! If anyone is interested in how it turns out let me know and I'll do a post about it.

[Sir Hacksalot]

Jaeger,

Let me know how it turns out, and I am also interested in the cost of the weapon.

I wonder if this could be done with one of the Ishapore 7.62 Enfields???

Sir Hacksalot

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[xebec]

Sir Hacksalot, Have you seen the new .303 "Quest Extreme" from Gibbs? This is one tough littler rifle-- basically a modernized #5 Enfield Jungle Carbine with:
Electroless Nickel plating
Ported barrel
Buttstock compartment for "necesseties"
New birch stock (original configuration)
original style flash hider
Suggested retail of $250!!!!???!!!
This would be perfect for building up a Jungle carbine based scout rifle.
BTW-- read a good article on these Gibbs rifles in the New Guns and Ammo.
http://www.gibbsrifle.com/catalog.html#anchor1936543
http://www.gibbsrifle.com/images/Quest.jpg

[This message has been edited by xebec (edited 01-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by xebec (edited 02-02-2000).]

[Sir Hacksalot]

I have a Spanish FR-8 short Mauser in 7.62 NATO. It is really a cool little rifle, has bayonet lug, flashider etc. I started to build a scout rifle out of IT, but decided against it.

The Gibbs you show seems interesting.

Thanks,
Sir Hacksalot

[Lisl Auman]

Scout rifle, a la cooper?
A #$#&ing la $3500?

I'd have to scout out another few employment options.

I agree with Chris C. The short and light ar carbine is the best scout rifle. Remember, scouting isn't fighting, or standing and fighting. It's shooting and scooting. Iron sights of course.

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Proverbs 27:7
He who is full loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

[Jaeger]

The Gibbs rifle shows a lot of promise. Did you se that they are making a version in 45-70? If the Quest was availabe when I started my project I probably would have used one.
Anyway, the 308 Ishapores can make a decent scout rifle. Their only drawback (IMHO) are the iron sights. They are located on the barrel similar to the AK. The rear mounted ghost ring/peep on the #4 and #5 are far superior.
After it's all said and done my rifle will have cost me about $700. (including scope, sling etc.) Is that too much for a modified Enfield? Probably. I seriously doubt I'd ever get it back on a resale. But it's what I want. I've envisioned this rifle ever since I first heard of Cooper's idea so to me it's worth it.

That FR-8 is a really cool little gun. Mine shoots 1moa all day long with surplus German ball ammo. I was going to "scouterize" mine also but decided against it. It's just too nea in it's stock form!

[This message has been edited by Jaeger (edited 01-05-2000).]

[xebec]

Jaeger, $700 is not too much if you enjoy the rifle. True, you will never see the money back on it-- but that's not why you spent it in the first place, right? I have put over $3500 (collectively) into three Ruger Minis (sounds like BS but its true -- you know how quick money flies from your pocket into your gunsmith's with these "project guns" http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif) I sold (traded actually) one for a $500 loss and was lucky to get that. My other two I would never give up-- they are PERFECT Mini 30s, worth every cent to me (my wife HATES those rifles).
Gibbs web site indicates that they are working on an Ishapore .308 with the Quest Extreme modifications-- If they make this I'll buy one. I think that the .45-70 will be a white elephant-- Marlin's fine rifles are tough to beat for a hard--hitting brush gun IMHO.

[Blued Market]

I've seen the new scouts on www.gunsamerica.com (http://www.gunsamerica.com) for $1650. I don't know why they are so much cheaper than the Jeff Cooper package. Look under the heading of Steyr Rifles.

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Amerika,
Land of the Fee,
Home of the Slave

[Packrat]

I think xebec made a forward-mount scope mount (attached to the gas tube) that might make an AK into a Scout rifle (since these seem to always have a scope). I'm not sure that it is far enough forward for a pistol scope, and it is too far forward for a riflescope, so it might only work with red dot sights.
I wish someone made a small, cheap, tough, open collumator red dot sight that you could feel safe in using on a gun for extreme use.

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Packrat

[xebec]

Actually the relief is around 15-16" which is perfect for almost all pistol and scout type scopes, which normally have a relief range of around 9-22". The red dot that is on the rifle is a perfect application for a "tactical" carbine setup (which is the application I had in mind for this rifle). I agree with Packrat that for a "battlefied" rifle the open collminator type sights may be a little delicate-- but the would be great in the "tactical" role. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=180379&a=1314507&p=15843338&Sequence=0

[Jaeger]

If you really want a tough, simple collimeter red dot scope go for a Trjicon. I have an ACOG Reflex sight on my AR15 and it is awesome! There are no batteries, no switches no nuthin'! There are 2 recessed turrets (slotted for a coin, screwdriver or a hex wrench) for windage and elevation adjustments. That's it. Cleaning instructions include holding it under running water so you know it's waterproof. I got a good deal on mine. It was barely used and cost me $300 (including the mount). You get what you pay for!

[Sir Hacksalot]

Jaeger,

I have a forward mounted Tasco Pro Point PDP4 w/20 MOA dot on my Bushmaster Shorty AR. It is utterly worthless past about 75 yards, but inside of that, it is SUPER FAST. I can still use the open sights, and figure I can use those far enough out to keep one's head down.

The Trijicon Reflex II sights are SWEEEET, esecially the 12.5 MOA triangle. I used one on a friends weapon, and found it VERY quick, and also precise enough to hit a metal gong out to about 250 meters or so by using the tip of the triangle. Well worth the money, and they have a SWEET AR mount for them as well.

FWIW,
Sir Hacksalot

[Packrat]

In a previous life I picked up a pistol scope, 2.5x, regular cross-hairs (not duplex), with a LED at the cross. You can't see it if it's off, but there are 3 intensities (as I remember -- I haven't looked at it for quite a while). And I just got a SA2000M, which has a short gas tube, and would look wicked if you chopped the barrel to 16.1" and left off the sight, brake, and all. They would make a great combination. And the scope will still work if the battery is dead, which most red dots won't.

I put one of the cheap BSA red dots on my Bushmaster M17S bullpup. I figure it's good to about 100 yds, and 3 seconds could be the rest of your life with that combination. And you don't even need bright moon light to get enough of a target.

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Packrat

[BenjaminXX]

Jaeger, how does the reflex site work? I have heard of this before, but for the life of me, I can't think of how to do it w/o batteries. Does it use tritium in some way?

Thanks

A very confused Ben

[Jaeger]

Ben,

The dot is generated by a combination of fiber optics and a tritium lamp. As ambient light increases the fiber optics increase the intensity of the dot. In low light and in total darkness the tritium takes over. The dot is projected onto a small glass screen (like a Bushnell Holosight or a Colt Cmore) With both eyes open you superimpose the dot on your target and sqeeze the trigger. Not great for long range precision but awesome for CQB. It is a superior system.

[SELECT-FIRE]

Jaeger, I have an AR shorty with the Reflex mounted on the carry handle, and it is THE setup for engaging multiple and/or close targets. Its forward position encourages both-eye-open aiming and promotes balance. It also needs no batteries, ever (the tritium is warranted for 15 years, but may or may not last longer). However, this setup SUCKS for distance shooting, because the dot (6.5 MOA) covers up too much of the target to be accurate. I prefer iron sights over a scope for distance shooting, because you see the "big picture", not a zoomed in view of your target. I will give up precision for a wider field of view.

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They're Coming......

[Average Man]

I thought the Scout rifle concept was kinda cool, but way to expensive.
I dug through a pile of Ishy enfields and found a nice "tanker" modle.
After market stocks, sling and a free bipod later it is pretty sweet.
I currently have a 4X scope on a rather Cheesey mount that was made in China. Looking at it though in about an hour in the shop I could pop off that forward mounted rear sight and fabricate a hummdinger of a scope mount and add a pistol scope up front ala JC and still keep the whole mess on the cheap.
I have to ask though what makes a turnbolt scout rifle so attractive? Doesnt seem very practicle now that Iam done.

[Packrat]

Because the people who created the Scout rifle were convinced that only a bolt action was sufficiently accurate. Remember, the Scout rifle was made to answer a specific set of conditions that may not apply to the tactical conditions you may encounter.

If you go to AR15.com, you will find a description of an "ideal" rifle, which just happens to describe an M4 carbine. Talk to a lot of people from this board, you'll get a different description. Go to a bunch of snipers, you will get another description. Only YOU can determine the conditions under which you will fight, and these will determine the "ideal" rifle. And the conditions under which you end up fighting may be different from what you expect.

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Packrat

[Lisl Auman]

SH:
The "scout rifle" is nothing more than a reason to have a different style rifle.

Unless you can call in supporting fire (unlikely for the patriot), then shooting at someone out past 100 yards is stupid unless you're sniping. Then get a sniping gun and have an ak or ar carbine on your back.

"avoiding trouble"??? Not unless you're firing in your mind.

Smart Patriots avoid direct contact unless it's to their advantage or they're suicidal.




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Proverbs 27:7
He who is full loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

[Clyde Carder]

Get you one of these like I did http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif No more controversy about hitting power, and battle proven. The 'bush' barrel really makes the rifle as handy as you please, and I guarantee I can do as much damage with 20 rounds of .308 as anyone can with 7.62x39. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

http://members.aol.com:/skychrgr/M14.jpg

[Jaeger]

Try your picture again Clyde. I can't see anything.

[HAL-9000]

David Franklin......What distances are you shooting that .270? Have you done any 500+ yards shooting, and what type rounds are you using. My Hornady books say I can put a 130 grain round out at 3000+ fps, and zeroed at 200 would only get a 53 inch drop at 600 yards, and still have a vol. of 2000+ fps. Now thats a real good, but how is the accury at that distance with your rifle?

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"Heres to us and those like us."

[kopftjaeger]

Originally posted by Jaeger:
I'm having a scout rifle built from #5 Mk1 Enfield Junge Carbine.
Jaeger took the words right out of my mouth check this out! in .308! I bet it kicks purty good too! http://www.gibbsrifle.com/history.html


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ÜBER ALLES!!

[Chris C]

well, i know some of you are gonna be
VERY jealous of me, but......

Barrett Model 82A1 in .50BMG

i know, i know, a special purpose rifle.
but the way i see it, if you're gonna be
carrying ONE rifle, make it capable of
taking out ANY target with as few shots
as possible, and .50BMG DEFINATELY should
do just that, even if they are wearing
"the big vest".

Reality Check...

SKS Carbine in 7.62x39 is a fair compromise.
Dependable, reliable, hard-hitting.

Chris