"tactical" disadvantages from a thumbhole?

[needanak]

Are there any when compared to a standard pistol grip set up?

Is the only advantage to a folder compactness?

[Jay_S]

I'm no expert, so this is just my personal opinion.

My understanding of the whole idea behind the thumbhole stock is to make it more inconvenient to operate the controls of the weapon, presumably so you have a harder time mowing down helpless children, bottles and cans, paper targets, or whatever it is you like to shoot. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif

Folding stocks are good for their compactness as you mention (such as room to room CQB, that sort of thing), and presumably to facilitate firing from the hip. I can tell you from experience it is a BAD IDEA to try to hold a weapon as if it had a shoulder stock when it doesn't, at least a shotgun. A friend of mine still has the scars inside and out of his lip from when he tried that with my shotgun.

Personally, I am sort of partial to the Dragunov-style stock. I have one on my SKS, and a friend of mine has one on his MAK. Ours are both ATI Fiberforce stocks, but I've heard comments that the Choate version is better, though I can't personally attest to that. As far as I know, it counts as a legal thumbhole style stock (though if anyone knows for sure otherwise I'd be interested to hear about it), yet the pistol grip is pretty much as handy as any other pistol-gripped weapon I've been exposed to.

Again, that is all just my personal opinion.


[This message has been edited by Jay_S (edited 01-27-2000).]

[Tomac]

I pretty much agree with Jay_S, plus most folders make quick sight acquisition more difficult due to lack of a cheek weld. Personally I prefer the thumbhole stock on my SLR-95 over the standard pistol grip because the cheek weld is more comfortable.
Tomac

[SamK]

Just put the Choate stock on my MAK90 and it is a VAST improvement over the original stock. The original felt like trying to hold on to a table leg, and set my hand too far back for my taste. The Choate gives me a much better handle on the rifle. Hope this helped.

SamK

[LAgunman2K-3]

actually the thumbhole AKA butthole stock is actually mostly used on target rifles/pistols
this was to make the gun look less military and more sporting, more like a target rifle
but they way some are made it does make it harder to use the guns controls

the dragunov stock was/is considered a thumbhole --but these are now seen as pistol grips by the ATF and Kalif

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and on the 8th day GOD made the AK-47 and saw that this was good

[Packrat]

I've fired several thousand rounds through a MAK-90 with a thumbhole, and several hundred through various pistol-grip AKs. I can't see any difference in getting to the controls -- I can't do it with either.
If you look at the thumbhole stock on the MAK-90 (the one with the large grip) you'll notice that the stock slopes UP as you move away from the receiver. This is the true "Monte Carlo" design, and it was intended to recoil away from your face when fired. Many other thrumbhole stocks don't have this.
Tomac, you're gonna get kicked out of the club if you admit liking a thumbhole!

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Packrat

[Polyak]

Does anybody remember the movie with Arnold "Commando" (I think it was COmmando)? At the end when he ransacked the local gunshop and went ballistic at the bad guys house he was using an AK with an odd looking thumbhole desing on it. That movie was made before the ban, so I guess at one time the thumbholes on an AK were considered pretty cool.

My Polytech came with a Choate thumbhole on it. I only got to use it at the range once before I put the ACE stock on it, but I actually did like how the Choate Drag stock performed, it was very comfortable and easy to use.

[Tomac]

Packrat: mea culpa! Where do I return my membership card??? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/wink.gif
Tomac

[Jay_S]

Originally posted by LAgunman2K:
the dragunov stock was/is considered a thumbhole --but these are now seen as pistol grips by the ATF and Kalif



Good grief!

So when was that determination made? Does that mean I'm a bad boy for having one on my SKS? What if you have one of those imported AK variants that had the Choate Dragunov stock installed in place of the original furniture in order to meet the legal requirements of the time?

This is fucking ridiculous (but I suppose you feel the same way, eh?)....

[JA]

Thumbholes are a pistol grip on a hicap rifle made from imported parts after 1998 because it is illegal to import hi cap rifles after 1998.

[Lisl Auman]

Needanak,
Folding stocks are only good for:
1. Concealing the weapon.
2. Ease of transport (parachuting, vehicles, etc).
3. Compactness of shooting (inside a house, etc.)

When it's time to shoot, having a stock is the best way to go, unless you're hollywood shooting, ya know, those 20 shot revolvers, etc.

I don't like the folders as they are rough to shoot and don't get a good cheek weld on it.

For accurate, and rapid shooting, nothing beats a stock. The plastic dragonuv stocks seem to be the best (For me).



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Proverbs 27:7
He who is full loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

[colonel kalashnikov]

Hey Polyak,

You're right about the Commando movie, he does have a thumbhole, and the movie was produced in 86-87. I think the thumbhole used to be considered cool. Before I got into AKs about a year and half ago, I saw my first AK ever. It was a Bulgarian SA-93, and I thought the thumbhole looked dandy and nasty, like an AK should. I must say, though, I have grown to hate all thumbholes, except on the SA and SLR, and maybe the Choates aren't so bad. IMO The Rom's and MAK thumbholes look plain stupid on an AK. I own a SA-93, and dearly love it, but I will never buy another butthole AK again.....Oh man, ya gotta love the SLR, though!!!!

[AK-fan]

Polyak,
The AK used in Commando was actualy a RPK Valmet (took me 5 minutes of rewinding the tape to get a clear look of the gun) You can check out the actual gun on the Long Mountain Outfitters web-page, they have the very same Valmet for sale http://www.longmountain.com/valmet.htm
In my opinion Comando movie was very realistic (can you smell the sarcasm?) Movies like that I tend to think of them more as comedies and not action movies, but they are still fun to watch and laugh at.

-Later

[Reds]

I've always wondered why modern military rifles tend to have pistol grips. My theory is that a pistol grip provides much more leverage for quickly controlling muzzle lift to stay on target during extended or full-auto fire. Does anyone know if this is true? You obviously don't need this as much in big-game hunting or sniping where you take care of business in one shot.

[General Ourumov]

I was actually wondering myself why a pistol grip is an advantage over a thumbhole. I like them for making the AK look original, but I don't see where they have an advantage. Actually I've found an advantage with a thumbhole stock. When the rifle is carried behind the shoulder with the muzzle facing up, with a sling, and you need to get into action quick, put a few fingers through the thumbhole and swing the rifle around into position. Then you catch the front handguard with your other hand and you're ready to go. This can't be done with a pistol-grip stock. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/cool.gif

[Lisl Auman]

Yes, you do get better control of a weapon with a pistol grip on it. (Put one on the front of your ak and shoot it).
It's easier to seat the weapon into your shoulder and hold it there w/a pistol grip, although SOME butthole stocks do the same.
A surer grip.
Holding the weapon at the ready.
Can put the butt of the weapon in the armpit and get on-line assault hip shooting better.

Ergonomically, it makes pointing the weapon more natural (elbow

Various shooting positions are easier, e.g., sticking the gun around corners, etc.

Various forms of carry/holding are better/more comfortable w/the pistol grip.

In close combat, pistol/butthole grips lose it when it comes time to use the butt of the gun, pugistically. You need to let go of the grip and grab the stock.

Last, but certainly not least, a pistol grips give amarican patriots one thing to change out in order to not have an imported assault weapon, so they can piss off the nazi's in "our" govt.



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Proverbs 27:7
He who is full loathes honey, but to the hungry even what is bitter tastes sweet.

[colonel kalashnikov]

I backpack alot, and I always take one of my AKs. That's where I do all of my shooting, ranges suck IMO....except for scoping in....Anyway, for comfort I usually strap the rifle onto my pack so I don't have to carry it for 10 miles on shitty terrain, and the thumbhole stock on my SA-93 always made it alot easier to have the main strap going through the thumbhole.. Now I always take a pistol-g Maadi with me, and it kinda is cumbersome sometimes to strap it on without the thumbhole...the t-hole just made quick work of it.

my lame .02

[Bolt.Thrower]

the thumbhole stock on my L1A1, makes it impossible to activate the safety, with out first removing your hand and bringing it to the other side of the rifle.
which i think is a hazard, accident waiting to happen for someone. who tries to apply the safety and moves the muzzle from downrange to an unsafe area.

since I can only fit my "thumb" through it. i dont get a comforting grip.
with a more powerful load then the .308. it might actually do some damage to your wrist. being that your wrist is not inline with the rifle. and off to the side. so when it discharges it could possibly injury ones wrist.


because on my rifle I cant grasp the grip with the rest of my fingers all to well. I dont exactly get a firm grip on it either. mainly due to the steep angle of the "pistol" part that you grab.
might affect the accuracy of the shot too.

plus since the but stock isnt angled as would be a seperate stock. i cant get a good alignment with the sights. since I have to lean my head way over.
with the original stock. the stock could be brought up higher to the cheek. and there would still some butt stock to place against the shoulder. with the thumbhole on mine.
I barely can get the sights aligned and still get about half an inch of stock against my shoulder.

thats what i think of the thumbhold grip on my rifle.

[HDR]

Some of this is based on personal ergonomics, as in size..
Best example is my daughter, who can tear the hell out of a target with almost any single stack pistol I have .22, 9mm, 45 ACP etc.. If you want to survive her with your ego intact?? Give her a double stack? She loses control after the first few because of her hand size..

Also military weapons are designed "one size fits all, works for all.."
Best example is the ambidexterous safety on the Beretta current US issue..
Many say it is needed for off hand firing IF a person is wounded..
Yeah Right! Tell me just who the hell has the damn safety on in combat?? The safety is for lefties and righties in training not combat...

Military weapons? Again made to suit anyone...

As far as a vertical buttstroke? Or trying to pound the Pee out of some one with and AK or an AR or an Uzi?? Nah.. Give me a 98 Mauser, 1903 Springfield, Garand, Enfield etc..

Last but not least with my 2¢?? First time I saw thumbholes was in target rifles..

[tire iron]

The whole reason for a folding or collapsing stock is for transportation ONLY. That is while parachuting, repelling, riding in the back of an APC, or other type vehicle. They were NEVER intended to folded or collapsed while in use - i.e. patrolling, CQB or ambushing or combat. The stock is always extended for these activities. "Shooting from the hip" should properly be called the "under-arm assault position". This is where one tucks the buttstock high into the armpit, and grasps the weapon with both hands and leans agressively toward the target. The master eye is in line with the bore. Good hits can be obtained to 10 meters/yards or so. This graphically illustrates that the buttstock is essential for this type of firing. The reason that pistol grips are present on virtually all assaullt weapons and thier civilian semi-auto cousins is for one handed firing. It is much easier done with a pistol grip than without. This type of firing is done when one arm is holding/carrying something/someone (a wounded buddy)or when one arm/hand is injured. It still allows one to use one's weapon. Hollywood is probably most responsible for the mis-conceptions mentioned above. I hope no one takes my post as a flame, it certainly is not meant to be.

[Packrat]

The first time I tried an AK without the stock I knew it was a joke. Then I thought, where would you use this? Indoors. What range? 10 yds or less. I went back, set up a target at 25 yds, and blew the hell out of it pointing. At the range you would use these guns (the under-arm firing, one-handed firing, etc.) you can do a lot better than you think. Don't try "assault gun" tactics at 100+ yds -- they don't work. At 25 yds or less, the target is a LOT bigger, and you can tear it up.

Hoope I have someone with a Moisin-Nagant behind me when I need 200 yd shooting. I'll keep the AK for the under-100 yards stuff.

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Packrat

[ALAL ENKI]

HEY Bolt Thrower!!!--One word, DSA! (www.dsarms.com) Their Dragonov stock rules!



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ENKI
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[Rangeboy511]

I too have handled FAL and G3 clones with thumbholes that made it real hard, or even impossible, to operate the safety with the firing hand. On the various AKs Ive handled though Ive never thought that the thumbholes were a hinderance.

[Don S]

Originally posted by Reds:
I've always wondered why modern military rifles tend to have pistol grips. My theory is that a pistol grip provides much more leverage for quickly controlling muzzle lift to stay on target during extended or full-auto fire. Does anyone know if this is true? You obviously don't need this as much in big-game hunting or sniping where you take care of business in one shot.

The reason is the geometry of the weapon. Modern weapons are designed to have an in-line stock (or, in the case of the AK, almost an in-line stock). An in-line stock precludes the use of standard grips.

It doesn't seem that pistol grips provide any advantage in handling. Else all the skeet and trap shooters would be using them.



[This message has been edited by Don S (edited 06-13-2000).]

[just dont shoot me !]

I have noticed that in wartime situations alot of people will shoot without aiming at all , around corners , overhead , onehanded . If an AK is firing blindly it will draw attention and give your sharpshooter a couple seconds when the enemy is looking for the AK to get in a good shot. Remember , the first direction you will look after ducking is toward the last shots you heard . Oh yeah , it is easier to fire from awkward positions with a pistol or generous thumbhole grip .