Full Auto As An Investment: Your Opinions Please

[FlintLockx]

I am considering making my first class III purchase (legally, of course), and I am trying to decide between something in .223 or a traditional AK. Keep in mind that I will be buying for investment as well as for the fun of owning a full auto rifle. I would be interested in knowing what AK model you folks would recommend, and also can you recommend a good class III dealer in the southeast? What should I expect to pay for a good investment quality full auto AK?

[Repairoman]

Probably the best value out there right now is a FN FNC converted by S&H. Depending on the condition of the host rifle, I've seen them in the last few weeks ranging from $4200 -$5200. Not bad for a .223 assault rifle with F/A and tri-burst. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif I talked to Curtis Higgins at Knob Creek this weekend about his conversion, the durability of the FNC and spare parts. As in the article that was in Small Arms Review, Curtis stated to me that the FNC has stout parts in it and he doubts that anyone would wear one out anytime soon. Second in value is Vector's Uzi at $2995. It's NIB with a 1 year guarantee. The price will only go up and each one of these are affordable as far as class III stuff goes. At knob creek, Long mountain Outfitters had there stuff there and the AK's were rough visually. There were a few that looked decent. but when you think that these are all conversions and not seen battle (even though they looked like they did) you would like a nice appearing gun for $6000-$7000 without having to put a parts kit on the receiver. Just a nickles worth.

[dadx]

Full autos are an extremely risky investment. The 1986 law which stopped approval of any further new guns is on very shaky legal ground. The ban could be reversed at any time.

With the Emerson case moving through the courts and Bush with a strong lead in the polls, I would not buy FA guns as an investment. In about 3 to 5 years, I can see the sort of compromise where new guns are allowed to be sold with the rigid controls of registration and exhaustive background checks.

Remember this: the current price of most FA guns is about 10 times what the same guns would sell for new without the ban. If new sales are approved again, you just lost more than 90 percent of your gun's value--remember, its a used gun, not a new one.

[Repairoman]

Dad, you can probably bet the farm that civillian sales of new machine guns will never happen again. In anyone's lifetime. Please post a link to the info that makes you think that the law is on very shaky ground. With the wealth that is around today, do you really think that the gov't would allow the sales of $350 AK's or $600 M-16's? I myself, would wind up with over 15 or so MG's. Multiplied by thousands of people, no way, the anti-gun contingent in the gov't would NEVER let it happen. It's a nice thought, though. Something to daydream about. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

[who me?]

Yes c3's have increased in value since the 86 ban, but like anything else the prices you see today are about it. These guns are not flying off the dealers shelves. If you just want a full-auto buy a mac for around a grand and put the other 5 0r 6 thou (the difference you will pay for anything decent)in a good mutual fund at 20% interest, you will make a much better return on your money.

[BenjaminXX]

Ah yes, but you can't burn thru cases of ammo with that huge grin on your face with a mutual. Mutuals are also vulnerable to variations of the market.

Re: post 86 guns
Can ANYONE produce more than a handfull of ANY federal laws being loosened? EVER?

[dadx]

Yes, I can cite an instance of Federal laws being loosened.

The same 1986 law which banned machine guns let semi-auto AK-47s be imported into the country. Since then, we have had several import bans, but nevertheless you can still get-buy-build an AK if you want.

The likely scenario I see is this. The Emerson Case is decided in favor of Emerson and appealed to the Supreme Court by the US govt. With Bush appointing new judges, the 5:4 conservative majority holds. If Emerson goes to the SC, I think we will win by 7:2, with Souter and Ginsberg siding with the conservative majority. With the prospect of courts starting to interpret the Second Amendment like the First, the feds will be happy to have us go through the $200 tax and background check.

Note one possible irony. If Bush wins, he might order his justice dept to not appeal the Emerson case to the SC. If that happens, it will not be a pro-gun decision. The Emerson case is the "dream case" which we have all been waiting for. There are no side issues here, only whether or not an individual citizen has a right to keep and bear arms.

[clay]

Every year, everybody I know in the Class 3 business says prices can't go any higher. Yet, every year prices DO go higher. What the C3 dealers are looking at is what the items are actually worth, not what they are selling for. In this particular instance, price is determined ONLY by demand, which is growing every year. Supply is fixed. I talked to a guy who's 'pro-gun', and also an agent with Smith Barney Investments this afternoon who told me if he could by registered HK sears today in quantity, he would buy all that he could get his hands on. Unlike people that are just in the 'gun business', this guy understands investments. Bottom line, buy it now. Don't listen to those who are telling you that prices have topped out. It's not THEIR money that they are talking about, it's yours, and prices on these items will continue to go one way--up. Don't take my word for it, ask ANY class 3 owner what he paid for his weapon, and what it's worth now, and do the math yourself.
Another example- 4 years ago a cherry Colt Thompson 1921AC was bought for $3800. Three weeks ago I saw that same gun sell for $14,000. Probably the only class 3 weapons that won't significantly (I'm talking of 3:1 to 10:1 margins) increase in value will be MAC's, STEn's, and MK760's. And even those will increase in price, but not enough to consider them as 'investments' in the short-term.

[clay]

In '93 I bought 5 MP-5 sear guns for $2500-$2900 apiece. I thought that I was getting ripped off, but I knew that the price had to go higher, because the supply was at a fixed level, and demand was growing. This past year, I sold them all for $9300 to $11,600 apiece. That's just one example.
Another is that in 95 I was buying Class 3 Full Auto AK's for $1600 apiece. Look at what they are now.
Those of us who bought MAC's back when the $200 dollar tax was more than the gun ($169 for P.S. MAC's), can tell you what it's like seeing the same guns selling for $1500 now.
My opinion-buy what you want, as soon as you can. They will not be making post '86 manufactured MG's available to civilians any time in the future, so what's out there is all there is. However, demand is growing. The great thing about most Class 3 stuff is that you can buy it, shoot it all you want, and then turn around and sell if for a lot more than you paid for it.

[who me?]

Okay a collectible thompson goes up in value but an m-16 4 years ago was 7 grand and is 7 grand today, and why if they are going up so much is vector selling uzis for brand new 2800 when they were 2800 4 yrs ago? Yeah and brokers are real harbingers of wisdom lol as witnessed by the explosion of trading online to avoid someone churning your account to pay for his new car.

[FlintLockx]

Thank you all for your input. But on to the second part of my question, can you recommend a good Class III dealer in the southeast? Someone you have done business with and would do business with again? I would like to find a reputable dealer who has a fairly good selection, where I can carefully examine the firearms, and will be straight with me. Since I am new to Class III I feel it is important to be able to trust my dealer since my knowledge is sadly lacking.
Thanks.
Flint

[DaveL111]

Not exactly Southeast, but I can recommend my dealer here in Oklahoma, Don Smith, 405 414-0094. Don has about everything in stock, including all types of HK's, UZIs, Cobrays, Thompsons, M16s, etc. He is a good guy who is very trustworthy and knowledgeable. Also a Class II manufacuturer for you LE types out there. He and his company have built some Post Dealer sample HK21s, which is very impressive if you can imagine M11/9 cycle rate of 1300 rpm with a .308 Winchester!

[clay]

Flintlock, as far as dealers go, check the 'Bower's recommended dealer list' at www.subguns.com. (http://www.subguns.com.) Unless you're buying from an individual owner of the machine gun that you want in your state, you'll need to find a dealer in your state to do the transfer.
Most dealers will work with you, and most that I've dealt with will go that extra mile for you. As far as being able to actually examine the gun that you are going to buy, well, that can be a sticky issue. See, if that weapon is 'owned by' and 'for sale by' an owner that's out of your state, you'll probably not be able to see it unless you're willing to drive to that owners state to check it out. For that reason NFA weapons are graded higher and more strictly than regular Title 1 firearms. Dealers base a lot of their reputation on how they grade their class 3 firearms, so it's a pretty strict code.
Most dealers that I've dealt with across the country charge around $100 dollars per transfer as their fee on non-in-stock, or brokered items. Some may be higher, and some dealers charge a little less. If you happen to find a stocking dealer, he will make a little more money to cover his costs, etc. You can always change dealers if you feel that you've been ripped off. Be aware that if an individual (form 4) in another state has a C3 weapon that you want, there will be two transfers involved (one from him to your dealer, and one from your dealer to you)that will EACH require the NFA tax, and your dealer may charge you two transfer fees. Of course, you can try to negotiate who pays what fees and taxes with the seller. If you find a weapon in another state that's on a form 3, it can go to your dealer tax-free, and then to you for the transfer fee, plus the $200 tax. If you find an individual in your state that has a weapon that you want, you don't have to involve a C3 dealer, you can just do the paperwork between yourselves, and send it in with the $200 tax. If you're totally confused at this point, that's a good start.
Good luck with it.

[Repairoman]

Originally posted by who me?:
Okay a collectible thompson goes up in value but an m-16 4 years ago was 7 grand and is 7 grand today **Which M-16? You can get M-16's from $4500 to $8500 in today's market. I know of people who got M-16's 4 years ago for under $3500. **

, and why if they are going up so much is vector selling uzis for brand new 2800 when they were 2800 4 yrs ago? **Can't tell you what factors Vector used to set their prices, only that the introduction of the new VectorUzi's stabilized the prices of all Uzi's in the marketplace. When all 3,300 guns are sold the prices will start to climb. That is the same reason MAC 10 type guns are so cheap, you can still buy new ones and there's a lot of them

Yeah and brokers are real harbingers of wisdom lol as witnessed by the explosion of trading online to avoid someone churning your account to pay for his new car.

[clay]

It seems that some people on this thread have 'fuzzy memories'. I bought a NIB Colt M16A2 4 years ago for the 'going rate' of $4000. The fact that someone says that they were 7000 dollars four years ago tells me that someone has NO idea what they are talking about, and obviously is not a RKI, and probably shouldn't be on this thread about 'investments', as their information is simply not factual.
Vector is an anomoly in the Class 3 world. You will probably never see the introduction of 'new' transferable weapons into the market place again. On June 10, 1986, the price of registered receiver UZI's was around $1800, and over the years that followed the price crept upwards. The prices of UZI's will be held in check at $3000 until Vectors supply runs low or out, and then look for them to inch up toward the $4000+ mark within a year.

[who me?]

Yeah being i am a former ffl holder i dont know anything, being you have bought a couple guns you know everything.

[krinkovx]

been ffl/sot for 29 years,and i think the class three good old days is over,greed,stocks,the market,crazy asking and selling prices,not leaving it,just don't enjoy it as much as i used to,and some of the new bloods,meaning the ones who have joined in past ten years know it all,hang around thirty plus more years in this biz, then they can say that,have fun with it guys,take care,krinkov

[clay]

I hear you, Krinkov. I don't enjoy it as much as I used too. Been SOT since '82, and done hundreds of transfers, but the past couple of years has seemed to take the 'fire' out of it for me. Too much money at stake now, and not enough trigger time for me, which is why I got into this biz in the first place. Been thinking about getting into something less volatile, like fishing, or golf, or base jumping (joke) http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

[MickeyMose]

Guys, some things mean more than money. Can you take your stock certificates out and have fun all day, meet great people and have a good time? Can you put a near orgasmic smile on someones face with that piece of paper?

Friend of mine has over two dozen of the things. He mentioned that if they ever repeal some or all of these insane laws he stands to lose a bundle. Big bundle. And he would love to lose it for that reason of repeal. Me too.

I am just starting in the C3 stuff. Ain't in it to make money. In it to enjoy myself and exercise my rights lest they become rusty. Can't be anymore risky than the house of cards called "the market". Nearly all the profit in the market is from speculation, little from money earned. Screw em! My weapons give me pleasure which is SOOOO much better than money. They give me security which is also better.

If you wanna play with the C3 toys - go ahead. Unlikely to get cheaper, unlikely the tax will remain at $200 either. The longer you wait, the less fun you have before you die!

[This message has been edited by MickeyMouse (edited 10-23-2000).]

[nechronius]

Originally posted by MickeyMouse:
Guys, some things mean more than money. Can you take your stock certificates out and have fun all day, meet great people and have a good time? Can you put a near orgasmic smile on someones face with that piece of paper?


That depends on the piece of paper...

1. Winning lotto ticket
2. Will of filthy rich great aunt giving you everything
3. Stock certificate you bought for 15 a share that shot up to 300+ per share in 4 hours of trading (LNUX, Nasdaq)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Repairoman]

Originally posted by nechronius:
That depends on the piece of paper...

1. Winning lotto ticket
DO YOU HAVE ONE? - HIGHLY UNLIKELY
2. Will of filthy rich great aunt giving you everything
DO YOU HAVE ONE? - HIGHLY UNLIKELY
3. Stock certificate you bought for 15 a share that shot up to 300+ per share in 4 hours of trading (LNUX, Nasdaq)
IF YOU BOUGHT ONE, YOU MADE $285 PROFIT. IF YOU BOUGHT 100, YOU MADE $28,500 PROFIT MINUS COMISSIONS DID YOU BUY 100? - HIGHLY UNLIKELY

MM and I did buy investment(s) that we can have extreme woodies with while playing with them. And I agree, sometimes the money thing can take a back seat. When you die,someone else gets all the cash. So my motto is spend it and enjoy it while you're alive.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Bulletxx]

No way. A good mutual fund can double (even more) your investment every 4 - 6 years depending on the level of risk your willing to take.

Guns are not good investments!

[Repairoman]

Yeah, but can you shoot your mutual fund? http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/biggrin.gif

[The Highlander]

Purely as a fincial investment generally stocks, bonds & mutual funds provide a higher rate of return than guns over the long term.

As an heirloom to collect that can be used & resold, guns appreciate well compared to things like cars, guitars & beanie babies.

[Crash N. Burn]

I can't believe I just read about Beanie Babies on the Ak-47 FA board..... what is this world coming too? ;-)

crash

Originally posted by The Highlander:
......to things like cars, guitars & beanie babies.

[xtc]

an investment,
ya right i say that all the time
"do u know what this will be worth in 20 years?"

for me its a joke, i never plan on getting rid of any of my toys
so is it really an investment if u never plan on selling it

ok, to anwser ur Q? yes its a good investment
full autos are drying up quick and the prices, they keep going up and up and up

u might consider buying a gun that is easily converted to another caliber like an hk sear that is registered in 9/.223/.302 or the uzi
that is reg in .22/9/.45 or the ar15 which can easily be converted to 9mm/.45/7.62x39

having conversion kits for a full auto inmy opinion greatly increases the value of the gun as a whole package

[This message has been edited by xtc (edited 01-16-2001).]

[jehh]

Umm, I hate to ask, being new and all...

Who is Vector? $2800 for a brand new Select Fire Uzi sounds like a good deal to me given the prices of Select Fire guns these days.

I'd rather have an M-16, but that is just out of my price range. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif Perhaps next year...

In any case, if that deal is for real, can someone point me in the right direction? An e-mail address, phone number, or web site would be greatly helpful. http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

BTW, with a budget of about $3,000, is that the best deal right now? I don't want a Mac (unless someone knows of a really good deal on one, even in not the best of shape since I'll shoot the heck out of it anyway), I'd like something that shoots rifle ammo if possible (or assualt rifle ammo, anything but pistol ammo).

Thanks all for the help! http://www.ak-47.net/akcgi/smile.gif

Jason

[shamayim1]

Flintlock;
Since you, like me , are a North Georgia boy, try Bullseye Guns in Lawenceville. They not only are class 3, they also have an indoor range where yo can try out the gun(s) you're interested in. Warning: they ain't chesp, but then who is these days. Phone # 770 277-4946

[Rob Mears]

Vector Arms -

http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html

[dadx]

I just might point out to anyone thinking about acquiring a full-auto gun that you need to also realize that you will want several magazines if you want to shoot the gun.

By "several", I mean fifty. Lets say you have (for example) a 30-round magazine and a cyclic rate of 600 rpm. That means you empty the entire magazine in 6 seconds. Even if the firing rate is only 300 rpm (5 per second), you only get 6 seconds of shooting time.

That means you don't want to go out to range and spend all your time loading magazines. You need to load the magazines before you get there and then spend the time shooting.

And that is exactly why you need lots and lots of magazines.

[royce]

As a CFO for a successful small business that was built from the ground up and now 20 years old, I have learned a few valuable lessons:

1) Do what you know if you want to maximize your success.
2) Whatever you think you know, just wait to until you have to make it pay for itself. Then you will find out how much you didn't know.
3) An amateur can rarely beat a pro at any game. The Pro knows too many tricks of the trade to get around actual talent/skill
4) Business (like having an SOT) always looks good from the outside, but when you factor in the cost of doing business over several years, you will probably find that you should have just bought the F/A you wanted and had fun. Nothing will take the fun out doing something faster than turning it into a business on paper. The most common error small business-people make is NOT properly analyzing their finances. Typically, you will have the appearance of making money when in reality actual analysis will prove that you have been steadily losing money over time. That is why only about 3 out of 100 business make it past the first year and even fewer survive the second IN PROFIT.
There is no 'free lunch'.

As far as investment goes, who knows? Predicting the future with your money is always...I repeat...always a roll of the dice.
No one has commented on the possibility that F/A's, due to an un-foreseen incident, can be ruled illegal period, at which time the bottome will fall out because there is no one to sell to and no way to surface them. Think it can't happen?
quote from Santayana: "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"

[clay]

Royce is correct. Private ownership of F/A guns could legislated out of existance, and then lot's of folks would lose their 'investments'. However, I remember reading in Small Arms Review how that C3 weapons were given different status than semi-auto weapons, as the Supreme Court had dealt with them in the first Emerson case. Basically there were two issues at stake: one, that the information on who owned the NFA weapon was 'priviledged tax' information, only available to IRS. That's why you can't find out who owned the weapon before you, unless it's on the Form 4. Two, that in the first Emerson case, the weapon in question was a sawed-off shotgun, considered a 'military weapon'. While the court didn't rule specifically on the legality of Class 3 weapons by the private sector, they didn't find issue AGAINST private ownership. This has given it somewhat of a protected status, to the point that legal experts agree that non-class 3 firearms would be legislated out of private ownership before items in the NFA registry would.
So, basically, the class 3 stuff could be legislated out of existance, but probably only after all the revolvers and semi-auto weapons were deemed illegal, and confiscated. Now, what would be devastating to the Class 3 world is if private transfers were frozen, or the transfer tax raised beyond a reasonable point, where no one could afford to transfer the weapon out. Remember, the first transfer tax was set based on the cost of the Colt Thompson 1921. At the time, the gun sold for $200, (which was a lot of money back then) and that's where congress set the transfer tax, at an amount equal to the cost of the gun. Back then, that made them not affordable to most people. But now, as the value of money has changed, that $200 is very affordable. But if they raised the transfer tax to, say the going price of an MP5 Conversion ($8000), there would be a LOT fewer transfers.
Just my opinion...

[Banshee]

It sure would be nice to have a nice NEW nfa gun, though. One can hope that that piece of legislation will be shredded. Anything is possible, isn't it?

Banshee

[timkel]

I really don't consider MGs as a investment. I would gladly like to see my class 3 stuff drop 90% in value, If we could get the 1986 mg ban repealed. I miss the days when the $200.00 tax was half the total cost of the weapon.